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Unhappy with Cell Phone Service Providers


JR Texas

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Note: I wrote this simple "letter to the editor" seven months ago and submitted it to The Nation and the Bangkok Post. They refused to publish it. You decide if it is worth reading.

Thailand’s Cell Phone Service Providers: Engaged in Extortion?

Extortion: “The act of extorting, or getting money, etc. by threats, misuse of authority, etc. (sometimes applied to the exaction of too high a price).”

I believe that Thailand’s cell phone service providers are possibly engaged in extortion via their respective 30-day credit validity period policies—policies that demand that customers spend a certain amount of money within 30 days of purchase or suffer credit seizure. In most developed countries customers are given twelve months, not one month, to spend the money in their accounts before credit seizure. The same is true in many developing countries, including China.

Recently, in Thailand, my account balance was 145 baht. My service provider informed me that my phone credits were about to be seized. They were seized, and I was not able to make any phone calls. I was then told by my service provider that the only way I could spend the money that was in my account was to give my service provider more money.

In courts of law in developed countries, this type of corporate demand has been construed as an act of extortion.

By way of illustration, imagine the following scenario. You purchase six cokes at a local 7-11, take them home and put them in your refrigerator. But you only drink one of the cokes within the next 30 days. After 30 days from the initial purchase you hear a knock on your door. It is a representative of the Coca Cola Corporation. He tells you that he has the legal right to take back the five cokes that you did not drink because you failed to consume them within the past 30 days. He seizes the cokes and tells you that the only way you can get them back is to pay for more cokes.

How would you react if the above scenario actually took place? Would you think that Coca Cola was acting in an illegal manner? Of course you would. And guess what? Cell-phone service providers in Thailand are doing the same thing. But instead of taking back cokes and forcing you to pay for more cokes before they give back the ones they took from you, they are taking back phone credits and forcing you to pay for more phone credits before they give back the ones they took from you.

I respectfully suggest that Thailand’s cell-phone service providers rethink their credit validity period policies. At the very least, as long as there is sufficient credit in a customer’s account to cover the cost of an intended phone call, a customer should have the right to be free from credit seizure for a minimum period of 180 days from the time the account was last topped up.

--Disgruntled Cell-Phone Customer

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I can't say that I disagree with your point of view but this sort of scheme is not out of the ordinary. I have prepaid phone accounts in five other countries and they all work pretty much the same way as do the Thai prepaid accounts. The period of validity varies in accordance with the recharge amount, after which any unused credits become "locked". In India, this can be as little as a few days.

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Works sort of the same in the US. I have a prepaid Virgin Mobile number I use for when I go home. I have to add money to it every 90 days or my number is canceled. But they allow me to automatically add something like 10 dollars every 90 days from my credit card to keep the number alive. But as long as I add money to the account every 90 days, I still have access to the money put on the account prior to the 90 days. I think it just keeps people from buying a number and only using it temporarily; therefore, unused numbers are kept open for future customers.

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Nothing remotely unusual about this, which is probably why they didn't publish.

You think that providing the service so you can make (or not make) mobile calls is free?? What planet do you live on? The infrastructure is costly to install and run.

If you're really that concerned, get a post-pay mobile (you'll probably need a work permit or at least a Thai friend / wife to get it for you) some very competitive (but not free) plans about.

BTW my AIS mobile is up to 12 months validity (the maximum) and I don't use it that much.

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I suggest you check the terms and conditions before you use the service. If they want to 'seize' your credits after 30days because their T&Cs state this, then you have nothing to moan about have you?

Simon

JR to Who Me: Thanks.........obviously a smart person who still believes in justice.

JR to Simon and other posters that think the extortion scheme is OK and not unusual: If all of the service providers in a country are practicing extortion you have something to "moan about." You have no alternative to the scheme.

The poor in Thailand are the ones getting hurt the most by this scheme as it forces them to spend a larger percentage of their limited income on phone credits.

The fact that a crime is ignored in one country (e.g., USA) does not automatically make it legal in other countries (e.g., Thailand).

For the record, service providers in China give you 12 months before seizure.

It would be interesting to find out how the credit validity period policies of the major service providers in Thailand have changed over the past seven years (pre-TOXIN and post-TOXIN). This would be a perfect task for an investigative reporter.

People should be outraged at this type of behavior. It is apparent that justice has become an arcane concept.......as long as you can screw the masses, make a profit and get away with it, it is OK.

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You think that providing the service so you can make (or not make) mobile calls is free?? What planet do you live on? The infrastructure is costly to install and run.

I suggest you read the OP again, he never said he wanted the service for free.

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This is an easy one to get around. I use 300bt recharges and recharge before I run out and before the 30 days. Do this a few times and you will find yourself with some months of time available. Whatever amount I have on my phone is now valid till November 2007. Cheers

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It's not only true in Thailand but it's neighboring countries as well (for pre-paid subscribers). The only thing that I think is wrong is that the providers in Thailand normally do not send the details of calls made when they send the bill for post paid subscribers. In this case, they can charge any amount they want.

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I am always amused when people accuse corporations of crimes for a service they signed up for knowing the conditions.

Get a life bud.

TH

JR Texas to Thaihome: This is not about me. I can afford to pay the extortion. It is about fairness, justice, corporate power, and the law.

When corporations have a monopoly over a service people need, people will reluctantly sign up for the service whether they think it is legal or illegal. There is nothing amusing about it. This happens worldwide.

Now, it would be interesting to get your opinion on this subject. I have suggested that a form of extortion is taking place. I also provided what I thought was a good example of how the extortion is taking place (the Coca Cola scenario).

Corporate actions can be good or bad. Sometimes they are not good. Sometimes they are illegal. Corporations want to make money. And, if they are not stopped by the government or public at large, some corporations will enact policies that hurt the public at large--especially if they are monopolies (this is why in the USA we have laws against monopolies......or did several years ago).

People tend to act in their own self interest. Governments and associated laws are designed to protect people from the actions of others. Without government by law, chaos ensues. It is human nature.

Imagine this scenario: I own all of the bottled water in Thailand. You are thirsty. I raise the price of bottled water and force you--via a credit validity period agreement--to pay for more water than you actually need.

You complain to the government, but the government does nothing because I have already paid the politicians off and they are making big money because they own stock in my company.

You complain to the newspapers, but they do nothing because I advertise in their papers and they need my money to keep afloat. And they also own stock in my company.

You complain to a local internet forum, but most of the members do nothing because they think it is fine for me to do whatever I want to do in order to make big money from my water monopoly (free enterprise).

Is any of this reaching you? Am I really that out of touch with reality? :D :D :o:D :D

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Pay a year at a time (as I recall, it's somewhere between 800 and 1500 Baht depending on who your provider is and what prepaid plan you're on). The amount you have to pay in order to get is less than half what the folks at say Cingular charge you for 1 year of pre-paid credit (I believe it has been mentioned on this board to be around $100).

:o

edit: and as it averages out... you come out well ahead when compared to purchasing time every 30 days.

Edited by Heng
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I don't know JR Texas -- you probably have some good points -- but if you talked on the phone a fraction of what you've done here, you'd use up all those minutes anyway.

In the last few weeks I bought some AIS top-off numbers at TescoLotus. The numbers, when entered for the first time, showed an error message that these numbers had already been used. It took a lot of haggle with the call center but within 3 days they gave me 1000 baht credit. Try that with a USA phone company.

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I don't know JR Texas -- you probably have some good points -- but if you talked on the phone a fraction of what you've done here, you'd use up all those minutes anyway.

In the last few weeks I bought some AIS top-off numbers at TescoLotus. The numbers, when entered for the first time, showed an error message that these numbers had already been used. It took a lot of haggle with the call center but within 3 days they gave me 1000 baht credit. Try that with a USA phone company.

JR Texas to Jazzbo: Forget about the good, bad and ugly in USA or China, etc. My question: Could the credit validity period policies of the cell service providers in Thailand be construed in a court of law as extortion?

Quite frankly, I strongly suspect that I "hit a major nerve" with this story. Just look at the trash that is published in The Nation and the Bangkok Post. My simple letter to the editor is not trash. It involves an important subject.

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

What I would like is for a very informed international lawyer to pop up on this forum (no chance....but still would like it) and explain to the readers about other cases where companies have been successfully sued for this type of behavior.

I think Turkey is a recent example....but can't find the info. on the net. As I said, the phone company monopoly will try to get away with as much as possible in order to maximize profits. And if the government and/or people do not stop them, they will get away with it......legal or not legal. :o

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I don't know JR Texas -- you probably have some good points -- but if you talked on the phone a fraction of what you've done here, you'd use up all those minutes anyway.

In the last few weeks I bought some AIS top-off numbers at TescoLotus. The numbers, when entered for the first time, showed an error message that these numbers had already been used. It took a lot of haggle with the call center but within 3 days they gave me 1000 baht credit. Try that with a USA phone company.

JR Texas to Jazzbo: Forget about the good, bad and ugly in USA or China, etc. My question: Could the credit validity period policies of the cell service providers in Thailand be construed in a court of law as extortion?

Quite frankly, I strongly suspect that I "hit a major nerve" with this story. Just look at the trash that is published in The Nation and the Bangkok Post. My simple letter to the editor is not trash. It involves an important subject.

The story was was censored! They don't want people reading or talking about this. That tells me something important and informs me that there is more to this story than meets the eye.

Paranoid? I don't think so.

What I would like is for a very informed international lawyer to pop up on this forum (no chance....but still would like it) and explain to the readers about other cases where companies have been successfully sued for this type of behavior.

I think Turkey is a recent example....but can't find the info. on the net. As I said, the phone company monopoly will try to get away with as much as possible in order to maximize profits. And if the government and/or people do not stop them, they will get away with it......legal or not legal. :o

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Works sort of the same in the US. I have a prepaid Virgin Mobile number I use for when I go home. I have to add money to it every 90 days or my number is canceled. But they allow me to automatically add something like 10 dollars every 90 days from my credit card to keep the number alive. But as long as I add money to the account every 90 days, I still have access to the money put on the account prior to the 90 days. I think it just keeps people from buying a number and only using it temporarily; therefore, unused numbers are kept open for future customers.

My FF here uses T-mobile for her prepaid phone phun. minutes purchases last a YEAR.

Check it out.

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OK JR Texas -- Pardon my levity. I am not a lawyer but have specialized in Legal Research in the US Oil&Gas industry in Dallas and Houston -- also international law including IP and copyright. I have advised Houston law firms and Big8 Accounting firms. I have personally been a client of one of the largest international law firms in the world with offices in about 80 countries including Thailand.

And I know enough to know that my PERSONAL opinion means nothing: It is only what you can cite. So, let's start. The word for searching is not extortion but collusion, price-fixing, restraint-of-trade, or anti-trust, etc. as relates to telephone consumer contracts.

This from the US DOJ:

'Collusion is more likely to occur if there are few sellers. The fewer the number of sellers, the easier it is for them to get together and agree on prices, bids, customers, or territories. Collusion may also occur when the number of firms is fairly large, but there is a small group of major sellers and the rest are "fringe" sellers who control only a small fraction of the market.'

The US DOJ Report is titled 'Price Fixing, Bid Rigging, and Market Allocation Schemes: What They Are and What to Look For'

Full report at: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

As far as Thailand goes, you are looking at the "Trade Competition Act" (TCA). You should look to section 27:

http://www.apeccp.org.tw/doc/Thailand/Competition/thcom2.htm

Now if you want to write a letter to the Post/Nation and charge that the mobile phone companies, by their restrictive and collusive consumer credit contracts, are somehow in violation of an Act proclaimed by His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej (2542) , you may get some traction.

If nothing else, this will give you some good terminology to use in further Google searches. 'Hope this helps. J

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OK JR Texas -- Pardon my levity. I am not a lawyer but have specialized in Legal Research in the US Oil&Gas industry in Dallas and Houston -- also international law including IP and copyright. I have advised Houston law firms and Big8 Accounting firms. I have personally been a client of one of the largest international law firms in the world with offices in about 80 countries including Thailand.

And I know enough to know that my PERSONAL opinion means nothing: It is only what you can cite. So, let's start. The word for searching is not extortion but collusion, price-fixing, restraint-of-trade, or anti-trust, etc. as relates to telephone consumer contracts.

This from the US DOJ:

'Collusion is more likely to occur if there are few sellers. The fewer the number of sellers, the easier it is for them to get together and agree on prices, bids, customers, or territories. Collusion may also occur when the number of firms is fairly large, but there is a small group of major sellers and the rest are "fringe" sellers who control only a small fraction of the market.'

The US DOJ Report is titled 'Price Fixing, Bid Rigging, and Market Allocation Schemes: What They Are and What to Look For'

Full report at: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

As far as Thailand goes, you are looking at the "Trade Competition Act" (TCA). You should look to section 27:

http://www.apeccp.org.tw/doc/Thailand/Competition/thcom2.htm

Now if you want to write a letter to the Post/Nation and charge that the mobile phone companies, by their restrictive and collusive consumer credit contracts, are somehow in violation of an Act proclaimed by His Majesty King Bhumibol Adulyadej (2542) , you may get some traction.

If nothing else, this will give you some good terminology to use in further Google searches. 'Hope this helps. J

JR Texas to Jazzbo: THANK YOU! Given your considerable background in legal research, you are in a much better position than I am to do the research (providing you are inclined to do so and have the time). I am very busy doing HIV/AIDS research and do not have the time to pursue this.

My original intention was to get people thinking about the possibility that some form of "collusion" is taking place. If you discover something, please email me. Also, I think you should be able to find many legal cases that touch on this subject, directly or indirectly. :o

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So your argument COULD be:

The norm for such credit practices e.g. in X number of countries is 3-12 months with most 9-12 months . In Thailand it is 1 month. Why?

While this 30-day credit restriction is not in itself illegal, the only reason the major telephone companies in Thailand can ALL maintain such an aberrant and restrictive credit limit is if they are in some sort of collusive behavior -- else one of them would see a marketing advantage in saying "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months."

But this is Thailand, not the USA...no class action lawsuits to my knowledge. But, if you want you, can make quite a stink in the press and maybe someone WILL take notice.

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So your argument COULD be:

The norm for such credit practices e.g. in X number of countries is 3-12 months with most 9-12 months . In Thailand it is 1 month. Why?

While this 30-day credit restriction is not in itself illegal, the only reason the major telephone companies in Thailand can ALL maintain such an aberrant and restrictive credit limit is if they are in some sort of collusive behavior -- else one of them would see a marketing advantage in saying "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months."

But this is Thailand, not the USA...no class action lawsuits to my knowledge. But, if you want you, can make quite a stink in the press and maybe someone WILL take notice.

JR Texas to Jazzbo: Again, thank you for your valuable advice.

I wish I had the time to do the necessary research. If you know of a researcher (e.g., Thai graduate student of law) that might take this on, please feel free to contact him.

I went to the site you suggested http://www.apeccp.org.tw/doc/Thailand/Competition/thcom2.htm and this section looks interesting:

CHAPTER III

Anti-Monopoly

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So your argument COULD be:

The norm for such credit practices e.g. in X number of countries is 3-12 months with most 9-12 months . In Thailand it is 1 month. Why?

While this 30-day credit restriction is not in itself illegal, the only reason the major telephone companies in Thailand can ALL maintain such an aberrant and restrictive credit limit is if they are in some sort of collusive behavior -- else one of them would see a marketing advantage in saying "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months."

But this is Thailand, not the USA...no class action lawsuits to my knowledge. But, if you want you, can make quite a stink in the press and maybe someone WILL take notice.

If any provider in Thailand made the "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months." promise, I would switch instantly .... I suspect I wouldn't be alone, and not just JR.

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I respectfully suggest that Thailand’s cell-phone service providers rethink their credit validity period policies. At the very least, as long as there is sufficient credit in a customer’s account to cover the cost of an intended phone call, a customer should have the right to be free from credit seizure for a minimum period of 180 days from the time the account was last topped up.

--Disgruntled Cell-Phone Customer

Why wouldn't a 180 day validity period also be considered as extortion in your world?

Extortion involves taking something by force, intimidation or illegally. I'm having a hard time understanding how your payment for the SIM or top-card was taken from you by any of these means?

From "Animal House":

Mayor Carmine De Pasto: If you want this year's homecoming parade in my town, you have to pay for it.

Dean Vernon Wormer: Carmine, I don't think it's right that you should extort money from the college.

Mayor Carmine De Pasto: Look, these parades you throw are very expensive. You using my police, my sanitation people, and my Oldsmobiles free of charge. So, if you mention extortion again, I'll have your legs broken.

The Coke analogy is flawed. The actual analogy is that you pay 7-11 today for six cokes at a slight discount, which you agree to pick up over the next 30 days. 7-11 stores the Cokes for you and pays the costs (overhead, rent, electricity) associated with making these Cokes available to you over the next 30 days. On the 31st day 7-11 closes your account.

There is a fixed-cost associated with a service providers' offering and maintaining a number. They had to pay for it, they had to program the switch, they had to set up a billing system, they have to terminate calls for that number, and they have to connect calls to that number (incoming) for which you do not pay a fee. All of these costs are figured in to the pricing on a SIM/top-up card and promotional packages.

You can get up to a 365 day validity period with most providers here provided you are willing to make the commensurate financial commitment. Also, almost all providers have on-going promotions which make it easy to obtain longer validity provided you agree to the terms of that promotion (e.g. higher per minute charges).

I think almost all pre-paid systems in the World have a fixed validity date based on the intitial commtiment. Every pre-paid SIM I've ever purchased, in dozens of countries, has had validity date of less than 90 days. T-Mobile To-Go in the U.S. has validity dates of 90 days for a new SIM purchase and 30 days for $10, and 90 days for $25 & $50 (unless you are a Gold Rewards customer) in top-ups.

But the bottom line is that you agreed to the Terms and Conditions when you registered your SIM on the network. I assume you read those T's and C's and evidently did not have a problem with them at the time of purchase?

Edited by lomatopo
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I respectfully suggest that Thailand’s cell-phone service providers rethink their credit validity period policies. At the very least, as long as there is sufficient credit in a customer’s account to cover the cost of an intended phone call, a customer should have the right to be free from credit seizure for a minimum period of 180 days from the time the account was last topped up.

--Disgruntled Cell-Phone Customer

Why wouldn't a 180 day validity period also be considered as extortion in your world?

Extortion involves taking something by force, intimidation or illegally. I'm having a hard time understanding how your payment for the SIM or top-card was taken from you by any of these means?

From "Animal House":

Mayor Carmine De Pasto: If you want this year's homecoming parade in my town, you have to pay for it.

Dean Vernon Wormer: Carmine, I don't think it's right that you should extort money from the college.

Mayor Carmine De Pasto: Look, these parades you throw are very expensive. You using my police, my sanitation people, and my Oldsmobiles free of charge. So, if you mention extortion again, I'll have your legs broken.

The Coke analogy is flawed. The actual analogy is that you pay 7-11 today for six cokes at a slight discount, which you agree to pick up over the next 30 days. 7-11 stores the Cokes for you and pays the costs (overhead, rent, electricity) associated with making these Cokes available to you over the next 30 days. On the 31st day 7-11 closes your account.

There is a fixed-cost associated with a service providers' offering and maintaining a number. They had to pay for it, they had to program the switch, they had to set up a billing system, they have to terminate calls for that number, and they have to connect calls to that number (incoming) for which you do not pay a fee. All of these costs are figured in to the pricing on a SIM/top-up card and promotional packages.

You can get up to a 365 day validity period with most providers here provided you are willing to make the commensurate financial commitment. Also, almost all providers have on-going promotions which make it easy to obtain longer validity provided you agree to the terms of that promotion (e.g. higher per minute charges).

I think almost all pre-paid systems in the World have a fixed validity date based on the intitial commtiment. Every pre-paid SIM I've ever purchased, in dozens of countries, has had validity date of less than 90 days. T-Mobile To-Go in the U.S. has validity dates of 90 days for a new SIM purchase and 30 days for $10, and 90 days for $25 & $50 (unless you are a Gold Rewards customer) in top-ups.

But the bottom line is that you agreed to the Terms and Conditions when you registered your SIM on the network. I assume you read those T's and C's and evidently did not have a problem with them at the time of purchase?

JR Texas to Lomatropo: :o

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If any provider in Thailand made the "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months." promise, I would switch instantly .... I suspect I wouldn't be alone, and not just JR.

So why haven't you switched?

There are (or at least have been) prepaid plans where you automatically get 12 months. I use DTAC and get 12 months validity credit when i top-up irrespective of the amount. I don't know if the plan I use is still open for new subscribers, but it was six months ago. If you do your homework and follow the market, sooner or later you will be able to find a plan that fits your needs.

Sophon

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If any provider in Thailand made the "Hey! Switch to us and we'll give you 12 months." promise, I would switch instantly .... I suspect I wouldn't be alone, and not just JR.

So why haven't you switched?

There are (or at least have been) prepaid plans where you automatically get 12 months. I use DTAC and get 12 months validity credit when i top-up irrespective of the amount. I don't know if the plan I use is still open for new subscribers, but it was six months ago. If you do your homework and follow the market, sooner or later you will be able to find a plan that fits your needs.

Sophon

JR Texas to Sophon: DTAC, with its "Happy credit validity policy," is one of the worst offenders. A class-action lawsuit could possibly be filed against them based on "collusion" and related to violation of the Trade Competition Act (TCA) http://www.apeccp.org.tw/doc/Thailand/Competition/thcom2.htm

I wonder what amount of money you must pay DTAC to get 12 months credit seizure free service.

The fact is (or at least I think it is a fact), not one service provider in Thailand allows you to purchase a small amount of phone credits and be free of credit seizure for 12 months from purchase (or even 3 months). Why? Collusion?

In China you can purchase the equivalent of 100 baht in phone credits and be free from credit seizure for 12 months. That does not stop people from spending more money per year and no doubt the vast majority do, but it does allow them to spend less money per month should they desire to do so and still retain their phone credits. It probably also brings more people into the growing community of cell phone users.........the Chinese are very smart.

I think we should not feel too sorry for the cell phone providers in Thailand.........yes, they have overhead, but so does every other business I am aware of. Most small business enterprises can't engage in such border-line illegal behavior because of COMPETITION.

And what about tax breaks for the major cell phone providers? Are they getting them from the government? If so, how much and should we really break out in tears worrying about their profit margins?

Does anyone know anything about how much money the big players (e.g., DTAC) are making off of the current system? Have their profits soared over the past 2-3 years in the wake of changes to their credit validity policies?

If the profits have soared, are they being put into infrastructure improvements or are they being put into secret Swiss bank accounts?

I think these questions are worth exploring.

For the record, I have been a businessperson (I am primarily an academic). I know that it is critical for a business to make a profit....that is how you grow and create jobs, etc. But to do so via collusion is simply not right............the public has basic rights along with corporations. It is not a one-way street. :o

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If you don't like the service, don't use it.

People survived without cellphones for a long time....there is no need to have one, other than status and what some might call convenience.

The only people who might actually need a cellphone are sailors, and desert dwellers.....everyone else can use the phone at work or at home.

I don't want to talk with anyone while their eating or commuting or

taking a dump.

Put down the phone and step away, you may be pleasantly surprised.

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I wonder what amount of money you must pay DTAC to get 12 months credit seizure free service.

The fact is (or at least I think it is a fact), not one service provider in Thailand allows you to purchase a small amount of phone credits and be free of credit seizure for 12 months from purchase (or even 3 months). Why? Collusion?

In China you can purchase the equivalent of 100 baht in phone credits and be free from credit seizure for 12 months.

Question for you: why then is a 12 month period free of credit seizure any less "extortion" than a thirty day period? You still paid for the phone credits, they're still seizing them. Seems like it's simply an arbitrarily appealing amount of time (to you). What if I don't want to drink those cans of Coke until thirteen months after I purchased them...?

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