British foreign secretary quits in protest over May's Brexit plan

[dunroaming]

10 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I have said it before and will say it again; the UK is not ready for Brexit and to undertake such a huge, complicated policy shift with little or no large scale agreement, consensus and/or with a minority, incompetent government is pure madness!

 

Many will condemn my idea, but I recommend that the UK should delay Brexit (5 years? 10 Years? 20 Years?) until it manages to get its act together, have consensus on what it wants, and has a government capable of delivering that.

 

Moving forward under these circumstances is plain stupid.

 

 

Totally agree but it ain't going to happen.  Logic and good sense went out of the window some time ago when it came to Brexit.  There are certainly growing calls for the public to get a final vote on the "deal" that will eventually be agreed but IF May is still PM I wouldn't bank on that.

 

It is hard to see how May can see this through without the EU demanding more and more concessions.  I would love to be in the bar with the Brexit boys, listening to their discussions on what their next move should be.  "Go on Boris! We will back you".  "No! No! you do it Jacob, we will back you".  "Where is Gove?  He can do it, or Foxy?  Let's draw straws and the loser wins...  Oh well... Another Pimm's over here please barman.

[citybiker]

Anyone understanding only a fraction of the complexities would never have voted leave. Especially not without having seen any alternative(s) and a robust plan how to achieve it. This is just pure insane and I wish the U.K. and all my friends there good luck with this. I hope somehow people in charge will wake up and undo this mess. Certainly not everything is good in the EU. But overall we are all benefiting from it way more than it hurts us. 

Although I concur that leaving the EU is very complex & challenging it's not impossible, I'm not niave at the task required either, however that's what the political and ministers are tasked to do.

As the UK is the first to democratically vote to leave, doing so proves it's neither impossible or insane.

As for a plan, IIRC it was aptly named a blueprint? Or original, thus far untested however still doable and workable.

Only the weak fear change & challenges, where as this opportunity should be embraced.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Totally agree but it ain't going to happen.  Logic and good sense went out of the window some time ago when it came to Brexit.  There are certainly growing calls for the public to get a final vote on the "deal" that will eventually be agreed but IF May is still PM I wouldn't bank on that.

What's the point of another vote if parliament won't impliment it, unless they get the result they want of course.

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, natway09 said:

"Business friendly Brexit"

You are going to have to leave first, before start worrying about business deals.

A delegation went to NZ & Australia to beg for a reinstatement of the old trading regime that stopped when 

joined but when asked questions on any details replied, "Well we don't know yet"

The reply was "Well you are welcome back when you do"

No more taxpayers money has been wasted yet on further delegations to the best of my knowledge

That is a very silly idea - leaving with no deal will destroy many businesses and jobs.

 

It's like saying to get planning permission for that extension, you need to blow your house up and live in the rubble for five years whille we decide what we will give you.

 

This all comes back to trying to leave without a plan - if we can't tell people where we are going and where we will be next year, how do you expect them to know what you can offer them and they can offer you in return.  

 

I don't think leave is a good idea or practical, but  it is most certainly not practical in 9 months time when you don't have any idea yet of how you want to do it.

[Chomper Higgot]

13 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Although I concur that leaving the EU is very complex & challenging it's not impossible, I'm not niave at the task required either, however that's what the political and ministers are tasked to do.

As the UK is the first to democratically vote to leave, doing so proves it's neither impossible or insane.

As for a plan, IIRC it was aptly named a blueprint? Or original, thus far untested however still doable and workable.

Only the weak fear change & challenges, where as this opportunity should be embraced.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

The delusion continues. 

 

The UK vote might indeed tell us something about 'insanity' but that might not be what you had in mind. 

 

All this 'only the weak fear change & challenges'. Throwing away the UK's biggest market with a vague hope of being able to replace it is a little more than a 'change & challenge' but then Brexiteers being brave in the face of other people losing their jobs is nothing new. 

[tebee]

27 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Totally agree but it ain't going to happen.  Logic and good sense went out of the window some time ago when it came to Brexit.  There are certainly growing calls for the public to get a final vote on the "deal" that will eventually be agreed but IF May is still PM I wouldn't bank on that.

 

It is hard to see how May can see this through without the EU demanding more and more concessions.  I would love to be in the bar with the Brexit boys, listening to their discussions on what their next move should be.  "Go on Boris! We will back you".  "No! No! you do it Jacob, we will back you".  "Where is Gove?  He can do it, or Foxy?  Let's draw straws and the loser wins...  Oh well... Another Pimm's over here please barman.

The Brexit supporters are going to be betrayed sooner or later . They don't seem to see that have put their faith in a bunch of scoundrels and snake oil salesmen only interested in what they themselves can get out of this.

 

Brexit as it's proposed and in the current timescales is not possible without wrecking the economy  - if it's done, people are not going to forgive the politicians who do it lightly. 

 

One think politicians are good at is self preservation. 

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

I thought the £350m was a fairly accurate figure .....

 At first I though you were being sarcastic, but just in case not, some facts would be useful.

Britain does not “send” £350m a week to Brussels. The rebate won by Thatcher in 1984 is deducted first. This reduces our net weekly payment to around £260m 

When EU spending in Britain is included – on agriculture subsidies, research and grants to poorer regions – the UK net payment comes down to about £160m a week.

Even Farage and the Daily Mail admit that £350m was a phoney figure.

 

In the referendum arguments the remain side were not blameless - the odious George "Austerity" Osbourne's project fear budget is an example. On the other hand the vast tissue of lies that made up the Leavers case renders IMHO the small vote for leaving invalid. Statements like "All our laws come from Brussels" designed to appeal to the mentally challenged, have nothing to do with reality, in fact it is around 3%. Now we find that the leave campaign were breaking electoral law as well.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Nigel Garvie
correction

[dunroaming]

33 minutes ago, vogie said:

What's the point of another vote if parliament won't impliment it, unless they get the result they want of course.

The point would be to stop the government agreeing to a "In Name Only" Brexit or a no deal suicidal result that would cripple our economy.  The vote would be for the leavers just as much as the remainers.  We are all up the creek together here with this shambles.

 

34 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Although I concur that leaving the EU is very complex & challenging it's not impossible, I'm not niave at the task required either, however that's what the political and ministers are tasked to do.

As the UK is the first to democratically vote to leave, doing so proves it's neither impossible or insane.

As for a plan, IIRC it was aptly named a blueprint? Or original, thus far untested however still doable and workable.

Only the weak fear change & challenges, where as this opportunity should be embraced.

Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

What your so-called "weak" fear is that the government are negotiating a dire and damaging deal and that we, like lemmings, have to go along with it to protect a few politicians careers.  The weak thing to do is to just keep chanting "Brexit means Brexit" and hope it won't be too painful in the end.

[Nigel Garvie]

As it happens I was listening to Radio 4 on the morning when John Humphrys famously mispronounced our new Foreign Secretary's second name, a magical moment indeed. Although nothing could be worse than Boris, let us not delude ourselves that his replacement is in any way a pleasant piece of work, as the NHS doctors know only too well, Mr Humphrys was right first time. 

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 At first I though you were being sarcastic, but just in case not, some facts would be useful.

Britain does not “send” £350m a week to Brussels. The rebate won by Thatcher in 1984 is deducted first. This reduces our net weekly payment to around £260m 

When EU spending in Britain is included – on agriculture subsidies, research and grants to poorer regions – the UK net payment comes down to about £160m a week.

Even Farage and the Daily Mail admit that £350m was a phoney figure.

 

In the referendum arguments the remain side were not blameless - the odious George "Austerity" Osbourne's project fear budget is an example. On the other hand the vast tissue of lies that made up the Leavers case renders IMHO the small vote for leaving invalid. Statements like "All our laws come from Brussels" designed to appeal to the mentally challenged, have nothing to do with reality, in fact it is around 3%. Now we find that the leave campaign were breaking electoral law as well.

and of the remaining money that is sent much is spent running the EU agencies like the space program or the medicine regulator which are going to have to be duplicated by the UK government if we leave - and also those agencies spend much of their money in the UK anyway 

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

The point would be to stop the government agreeing to a "In Name Only" Brexit or a no deal suicidal result that would cripple our economy.  The vote would be for the leavers just as much as the remainers.  We are all up the creek together here with this shambles.

 

This shambles has proven that the government does not listen to anyone, so if they have another vote there is no reason for them to act on it. It doesn't matter whether you are a leaver or a remainer the government will act on what they think is correct, it has been proven and we have no say in the matter.

[dragonballz]

47 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

 At first I though you were being sarcastic, but just in case not, some facts would be useful.

Britain does not “send” £350m a week to Brussels. The rebate won by Thatcher in 1984 is deducted first. This reduces our net weekly payment to around £260m 

When EU spending in Britain is included – on agriculture subsidies, research and grants to poorer regions – the UK net payment comes down to about £160m a week.

Even Farage and the Daily Mail admit that £350m was a phoney figure.

 

In the referendum arguments the remain side were not blameless - the odious George "Austerity" Osbourne's project fear budget is an example. On the other hand the vast tissue of lies that made up the Leavers case renders IMHO the small vote for leaving invalid. Statements like "All our laws come from Brussels" designed to appeal to the mentally challenged, have nothing to do with reality, in fact it is around 3%. Now we find that the leave campaign were breaking electoral law as well.

problem is the lefties cannot read english or understand politics . I do understand why ? 
 The bus said
WE SEND THE EU 350 MILLION POUNDS A WEEK 
 LETS FUND OUR NHS INSTEAD
I cannot still see anywhere it says  give all the money we save to the nhs  . IT WAS A SUGGESTION OF WHAT WE COULD DO WITH THE MONEY.The leave campaign is not a poltical party , is not in government and only a buffon would thing otherwise plus those who like to spin
 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

This shambles has proven that the government does not listen to anyone, so if they have another vote there is no reason for them to act on it. It doesn't matter whether you are a leaver or a remainer the government will act on what they think is correct, it has been proven and we have no say in the matter.

Well if there was ever a defeatist view that is it.  You may be happy to be sold down the river without a fight but don't expect the rest of us to roll over so easily!

[dunroaming]

44 minutes ago, dragonballz said:

problem is the lefties cannot read english or understand politics . I do understand why ? 
 The bus said
WE SEND THE EU 350 MILLION POUNDS A WEEK 
 LETS FUND OUR NHS INSTEAD
I cannot still see anywhere it says  give all the money we save to the nhs  . IT WAS A SUGGESTION OF WHAT WE COULD DO WITH THE MONEY.The leave campaign is not a poltical party , is not in government and only a buffon would thing otherwise plus those who like to spin
 

And Boris stood next to the bus and gesticulating towards the 350 million said "lets spend that 350 million on the NHS instead".

 

There are numerous examples of that. You can google them. It wasn't just what was written on the bus it was the rhetoric of those travelling on the bus.

[The Renegade]

Sajid Javid says wait for the White Paper but :

 

Quote

What I can tell you, because the prime minister has said this, so I’m not pre-empting something that’s in the white paper, is that there will be a complete, total end to freedom of movement.

 

Freedom of movement as we understand it today will end, but also there will be no version of that, no derivative of that, no type of free movement, no backdoor version of free movement. Free movement will end.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/10/theresa-may-new-cabinet-boris-johnson-resignation-brexit-live

 

White Paper probably already rejected by the EU.

 

Taxi for May.

[The Renegade]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

and of the remaining money that is sent much is spent running the EU agencies like the space program or the medicine regulator which are going to have to be duplicated by the UK government if we leave -

tebee

 

I have already burst your bubble on this.

 

The UK's EU membership fee of £12 Billion less rebate does not pay for things like the space programme or medicine regulator.

 

These are all fees that are over and above EU membership fees.

 

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/Funding

 

Here, educate yourself and quit with the lies.

[tebee]

18 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

I have already burst your bubble on this.

 

The UK's EU membership fee of £12 Billion less rebate does not pay for things like the space programme or medicine regulator.

 

These are all fees that are over and above EU membership fees.

 

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/Funding

 

Here, educate yourself and quit with the lies.

Yes and you were wrong that time too - the normal costs of running the agency comes from our budget contributions - there are discretionary projects we may  choose to contribute to over and above that - but we only do that if it's to our advantage   

Edited July 10, 2018 by tebee

[The Renegade]

17 minutes ago, tebee said:

Yes and you were wrong that time too - the normal costs of running the agency comes from our budget contributions - there are discretionary projects we may  choose to contribute to over and above that - but we only do that if it's to our advantage   

Was I really ?

 

Try reading

 

Quote

All Member States contribute to these programmes on a scale based on their Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

 

The other programmes, known as ‘optional’, are only of interest to some Member States, who are free to decide on their level of involvement.

UK contribution to the 2018 ESA Budget €334.8million

 

 

Now quit your lying

Edited July 10, 2018 by The Renegade

[dragonballz]

1 hour ago, dunroaming said:

And Boris stood next to the bus and gesticulating towards the 350 million said "lets spend that 350 million on the NHS instead".

 

There are numerous examples of that. You can google them. It wasn't just what was written on the bus it was the rhetoric of those travelling on the bus.

Yes you are right . But what was written on that bus was obviously a suggestion on what we could spend the money on along with police education etc . The rhetoric was also given by people who had no power to give money to anyone as they were not in government . If the masses could not understand that then perhaps we do not let the masses vote .
I understood it the first time i saw it . clear as a bell . We spend all this money on the EU lets get out and spend it on ourselves .Anyone who states different is either dumb or just spinning propaganda crap

[tebee]

51 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Was I really ?

 

Try reading

 

UK contribution to the 2018 ESA Budget €334.8million

 

 

Now quit your lying

Ah there is a reason why the ESA is not funded out of the EU budget - it is not an EU agency  ! My fault was a bad one to pick - I had not realized it was independent body. 

 

Pick one of these 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agencies_of_the_European_Union

[The manic]

11 hours ago, lanista said:

With England possibly going through to the World Cup final its a great opportunity for pollies to dissent and the government to make some really  unpopular decsions.  The public are sheeple that will be hypnotised by a football game. Alot of weird stuff is happening in the UK but not in Russia.

Nonsensical 

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, dragonballz said:

Yes you are right . But what was written on that bus was obviously a suggestion on what we could spend the money on along with police education etc . The rhetoric was also given by people who had no power to give money to anyone as they were not in government . If the masses could not understand that then perhaps we do not let the masses vote .
I understood it the first time i saw it . clear as a bell . We spend all this money on the EU lets get out and spend it on ourselves .Anyone who states different is either dumb or just spinning propaganda crap

Quite.  The people saying let's spend the 350 million on the NHS had no right to say that at all.  It was all spin and the great unwashed sucked it up and voted to leave!

[Nigel Garvie]

3 hours ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

I have already burst your bubble on this.

 

The UK's EU membership fee of £12 Billion less rebate does not pay for things like the space programme or medicine regulator.

 

These are all fees that are over and above EU membership fees.

 

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/Funding

 

Here, educate yourself and quit with the lies.

Whatever side of this argument you are on it is unjustified, and also crude,  and rude, to accuse someone with a different point of view to yours of lying, unless you have clear evidence of this. Both you and the other person may be misinformed, mistaken, or indeed not informed at all. The debate - passionate as it may be - should IMHO attempt to be civilised, and not abusive.

[vogie]

Jacob Rees Mogg doing what he does best, talking sense.

 

 

[The Renegade]

8 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Whatever side of this argument you are on it is unjustified, and also crude,  and rude, to accuse someone with a different point of view to yours of lying, unless you have clear evidence of this.

Provided twice

 

12 hours ago, The Renegade said:

tebee

 

I have already burst your bubble on this.

 

The UK's EU membership fee of £12 Billion less rebate does not pay for things like the space programme or medicine regulator.

 

These are all fees that are over and above EU membership fees.

 

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/Funding

 

Here, educate yourself and quit with the lies.

Now rethink your comment.

[Chomper Higgot]

The big question now is what are Johnson and Davis going to do next.

 

They’ve backed Brexit, they say they quit because Theresa May is not giving them Brexit.

 

Either they challenge the PM in a leadership battle to get the Brexit they say they resigned over.

 

Or they aren’t telling the truth about why they resigned.

 

Odds are they are continuing with their habit of lying.

[The Renegade]

Theresa May at a press conference yesterday.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/10/theresa-may-new-cabinet-boris-johnson-resignation-brexit-live

 

The face of a woman that has sold her soul.

 

Taxi for May

[The Renegade]

The 3 page summary of the Chequers White Paper 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/723460/CHEQUERS_STATEMENT_-_FINAL.PDF

 

Quote

g. restore the supremacy of UK courts, ending the jurisdiction of the CJEU in the UK,

Quote

h. end free movement, giving the UK back control over how many people enter the country;

Quote

j. end vast annual payments to the EU budget,

 

Anybody think that the EU is going to accept this ? 

[simple1]

12 hours ago, tebee said:

Ah there is a reason why the ESA is not funded out of the EU budget - it is not an EU agency  ! My fault was a bad one to pick - I had not realized it was independent body. 

 

Pick one of these 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agencies_of_the_European_Union

You're falling for bullying and spin e.g. 20% of the ESA annual budget is funded by the EU. 

 

 Some 20 percent of the funds managed by ESA now originate from the EU budget.

 

https://www.esa.int/About_Us/Welcome_to_ESA/ESA_and_the_EU

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

The 3 page summary of the Chequers White Paper 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/723460/CHEQUERS_STATEMENT_-_FINAL.PDF

 

 

Anybody think that the EU is going to accept this ? 

Brexit zealot pins his hopes in the EU.

 

Irony lives!