Food for running - I've hit a plateau

[tropo]

5 hours ago, simon43 said:

A quick update about my running and general fitness training.

 

I think I've reached a maximum speed for my body.  To put it more bluntly, my little legs are too short to sustain a higher pace than 13 kph!  I'm very happy that I've achieved this pace and now I've backed off from that maximum pace.  Now I jog for about 30 minutes on a treadmill hill course, starting at 9.5 kph and gradually increasing the pace up to 12.5 kph.  The incline varies from 3 to 7% during that course.

 

I can sustain that jogging programme and I'm enjoying it.

 

So now since my jogging and cardio work is all in hand, I'm now concentrating on building up the muscle in my upper body. I have low testosterone (genetic family trait for males in my family). That issue, coupled with my age, means that my arm and chest muscles are puny!

 

4 weeks ago my gym trainer designed a weights routine to increase my upper body muscle.  This was carefully designed because I have a left shoulder injury (I fell off a ladder onto concrete some years ago).  So I cannot push up weights/bars with my arms widely apart - the risk of further injury is too great).

 

I follow a training routine which concentrates on different muscle areas each day, with rest and jogging days in-between.  I've increased my whey protein daily intake.

 

After 4 weeks, there is a very visible difference in my muscle mass (meaning that it was about 0% before and now it's about 5%!!)

 

Again, I'm very happy with what I'm achieving.  It isn't easy to make myself go to the gym each day after work to push weights, but the visible and positive results are a good incentive.  I'm very patient (losing weight and getting my jogging pace to 12.5 kph took about 2 years), and look forward to the weight training results over a similar length of time.

Regarding your shoulder injury. It's important to keep the muscles around the joint strong and avoid the temptation to "stay off it" and compensate with your good side. Have you considered swimming as a remedial activity? I swam for about 2 months way back when I had a problematic shoulder injury and it did wonders for it. I only swam at that time and stayed out of the gym.

[lovelomsak]

6 hours ago, simon43 said:

A quick update about my running and general fitness training.

 

I think I've reached a maximum speed for my body.  To put it more bluntly, my little legs are too short to sustain a higher pace than 13 kph!  I'm very happy that I've achieved this pace and now I've backed off from that maximum pace.  Now I jog for about 30 minutes on a treadmill hill course, starting at 9.5 kph and gradually increasing the pace up to 12.5 kph.  The incline varies from 3 to 7% during that course.

 

I can sustain that jogging programme and I'm enjoying it.

 

So now since my jogging and cardio work is all in hand, I'm now concentrating on building up the muscle in my upper body. I have low testosterone (genetic family trait for males in my family). That issue, coupled with my age, means that my arm and chest muscles are puny!

 

4 weeks ago my gym trainer designed a weights routine to increase my upper body muscle.  This was carefully designed because I have a left shoulder injury (I fell off a ladder onto concrete some years ago).  So I cannot push up weights/bars with my arms widely apart - the risk of further injury is too great).

 

I follow a training routine which concentrates on different muscle areas each day, with rest and jogging days in-between.  I've increased my whey protein daily intake.

 

After 4 weeks, there is a very visible difference in my muscle mass (meaning that it was about 0% before and now it's about 5%!!)

 

Again, I'm very happy with what I'm achieving.  It isn't easy to make myself go to the gym each day after work to push weights, but the visible and positive results are a good incentive.  I'm very patient (losing weight and getting my jogging pace to 12.5 kph took about 2 years), and look forward to the weight training results over a similar length of time.

Really good to hear things are going so well. I am happy to hear you are working with  the incline also.. It sounds to me like you have it under control  and moving forward keep up the good work. Congratulations.

[simon43]

Regarding your shoulder injury. It's important to keep the muscles around the joint strong and avoid the temptation to "stay off it" and compensate with your good side

['quote]

 

I agree. To minimise the risk of inflaming this old injury, exercises which involve my shoulders (shoulder press etc), initially used the lightest of weights (1 Kg).  As I slowly push up I can 'feel' some movement and sometimes clicking and popping in my left shoulder region, but no sharp pain as long as I move slowly.  I've been able to gradually increase the weight that I'm living in these exercises.

 

Maybe some years from now I should have surgery on this shoulder.  But for now, the muscles are slowly getting stronger and bigger (my upper arm dimension when flexing my muscle is all of 11 inches now!)

[alfieconn]

Quote

I monitor my heart rate throughout my run and on days when my legs get tired, my final HR is a few beats higher than the final rate for when I complete 5 Km successfully (about 166 bpm, compared to 163 bpm for a successful 5 Km run).

To be fair, your final heart beat doesn't really tell you the intensity of your run.

Like someone has already said, you need to find your max HR, then take your average HR over a cardio workout and calculate that as a percentage against your Max HR to tell you your intensity. If you are using an App like Polar then once you have imput your Max HR it will do all the calculations for you.

[simon43]

Like someone has already said, you need to find your max HR..

 

Yep, I know all these details already, having been jogging almost daily for the past 18 months.  This has helped me to understand very well what my max HR is, how my HR reacts/increases as I jog, and (also importantly), the profile of how it slows down immediately after I complete my run.

 

So from monitoring my HR, I am able to gauge the intensity of my run very easily - I know my HR profile in great detail ?

[alfieconn]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:49 AM, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Yep, I know all these details already, having been jogging almost daily for the past 18 months.  This has helped me to understand very well what my max HR is, how my HR reacts/increases as I jog, and (also importantly), the profile of how it slows down immediately after I complete my run.

 

So from monitoring my HR, I am able to gauge the intensity of my run very easily - I know my HR profile in great detail ?

Jogging won't tell you what your max HR is !

[simon43]

Jogging won't tell you what your max HR is !

 

Yes, I'm not stupid!!  I've been running for a long time, including doing max HR runs, including similar, measured tests in hospitals in BKK.  I know the profile of my HR response for all types of jogging, HIIT, walking, fat-burning jogs, cardio runs etc.

[alfieconn]

1 minute ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

Yes, I'm not stupid!!  I've been running for a long time, including doing max HR runs, including similar, measured tests in hospitals in BKK.  I know the profile of my HR response for all types of jogging, HIIT, walking, fat-burning jogs, cardio runs etc.

Calm down ! that was in response to your post  

Quote

Yep, I know all these details already, having been jogging almost daily for the past 18 months.  This has helped me to understand very well what my max HR is, how my HR reacts/increases as I jog, and (also importantly), the profile of how it slows down immediately after I complete my run.

So being as you have only mentioned Jogging in the post how would anyone know that you have done Max HR runs ? perhaps you need to put the full info in future !!!

[simon43]

perhaps you need to put the full info in future !!!

 

If you read my OP, I mention that I have a gym trainer and have been training for 2 years on a daily basis.  No decent trainer or serious jogger would omit to obtain baseline max HR, resting HR, heart ECK cardiogram, exercise stress test etc before starting such an intensive training program - and then monitor those parameters during that training program.

 

But this is somewhat off-topic ?

 

Let's get back to the topic ==> food for running.

 

Right now, I've backed off from running at 13 kph because it really does seem too fast a pace for my legs to maintain - I risk pulling a muscle.  My stamina is fine at this pace.  I've backed off to 10 - 12 kph 5 Km runs, which seem just fine.

 

I often eat a banana prior to my runs, which are quickly converted into short-term energy.  I also drink half a M150 energy drink before and after my run.  No idea if the cocaine in that drink helps!

[alfieconn]

44 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

If you read my OP, I mention that I have a gym trainer and have been training for 2 years on a daily basis.  No decent trainer or serious jogger would omit to obtain baseline max HR, resting HR, heart ECK cardiogram, exercise stress test etc before starting such an intensive training program - and then monitor those parameters during that training program.

 

But this is somewhat off-topic ?

 

Let's get back to the topic ==> food for running.

 

Right now, I've backed off from running at 13 kph because it really does seem too fast a pace for my legs to maintain - I risk pulling a muscle.  My stamina is fine at this pace.  I've backed off to 10 - 12 kph 5 Km runs, which seem just fine.

 

I often eat a banana prior to my runs, which are quickly converted into short-term energy.  I also drink half a M150 energy drink before and after my run.  No idea if the cocaine in that drink helps!

You don't mention any of that in your OP and Telepathy is not my strong point !!

[simon43]

You don't mention any of that in your OP and Telepathy is not my strong point !!

 

Er... go back and read my OP.  I explain that I have a gym trainer who designed a training programme for me.  I mention that I've been jogging and increasing my pace for 2 years.  Don't be so anally-retentive.

 

... and ping! You join my VERY short list of blocked posters ?

[tropo]

On 8/9/2018 at 8:41 AM, simon43 said:

Quote

ogging won't tell you what your max HR is !
 

Yes, I'm not stupid!!  I've been running for a long time, including doing max HR runs, including similar, measured tests in hospitals in BKK.  I know the profile of my HR response for all types of jogging, HIIT, walking, fat-burning jogs, cardio runs etc.

 

I'm curious. What is the highest heart rate you can produce experimentally? Personally, I don't think it's safe to try at our age because if your heart is going to fail, that's a time it could. I did try a couple of years ago during stair climbing and pushed it up to 177 (57 years old at that time) and I've had it up in the 170's a few times since, but it makes me nervous. I have a heart rate monitor strapped on whenever I train these days - weight or cardio sessions.

 

It's probably a better idea to use one of the heart rate formulas than risk experimenting.

[simon43]

Tropo, I got up to 185 on an exhausting treadmill test at the hospital with full heart monitoring etc.  So I trusted the doctors when they pushed me hard! 

 

On a typical 5 km jog at 11 kph my HR at the end is 164 (like you,  I monitor my HR) and I'm not out of breath at all.  That HR falls back below 140 within 90 seconds of completing the jog. 

 

Sometimes I jog further or faster and hit 174 bpm, but I still feel fine and am just beginning to breath more deeply ?

[tropo]

On 8/12/2018 at 8:29 AM, simon43 said:

Tropo, I got up to 185 on an exhausting treadmill test at the hospital with full heart monitoring etc.  So I trusted the doctors when they pushed me hard! 

 

On a typical 5 km jog at 11 kph my HR at the end is 164 (like you,  I monitor my HR) and I'm not out of breath at all.  That HR falls back below 140 within 90 seconds of completing the jog. 

 

Sometimes I jog further or faster and hit 174 bpm, but I still feel fine and am just beginning to breath more deeply ?

Seriously, Simon, there's something going on here that doesn't make sense to me. You say you get to 174 bpm, which is way higher than the theoretical maximum heart rate for your age of 160, and not far off your experimental maximum of 185 bpm, yet you say you're just beginning to breath more deeply. When I got to my experimental maximum of 177 bpm I was nearly dying from exhaustion. Anything in the 170's is close to dying of exhaustion. When I'm in the 160's I'm working so hard I can't wait to stop. It's real punishment that I do not enjoy. If you're "just beginning to breath more deeply" at 174 bpm, how high must you go to really feel you're working hard?

 

I don't do long runs or any long cardio. When I push my heart rate high (really high for me is over 160 bpm, high is anything in the 150's), it's during interval training on the rower or skierg. At that heart rate I'm producing between 250 and 300 watts of power on either machine and it's pushing my limits of comfort to the extreme. It's brutal! I don't do that very often mind you. As I get fitter, it becomes more difficult to get the higher heart rates too, not easier. i.e. I produce more work at a lower heart rate.

[Aussieroaming]

On 8/15/2018 at 11:45 PM, tropo said:

Seriously, Simon, there's something going on here that doesn't make sense to me. You say you get to 174 bpm, which is way higher than the theoretical maximum heart rate for your age of 160, and not far off your experimental maximum of 185 bpm, yet you say you're just beginning to breath more deeply. When I got to my experimental maximum of 177 bpm I was nearly dying from exhaustion. Anything in the 170's is close to dying of exhaustion. When I'm in the 160's I'm working so hard I can't wait to stop. It's real punishment that I do not enjoy. If you're "just beginning to breath more deeply" at 174 bpm, how high must you go to really feel you're working hard?

 

I don't do long runs or any long cardio. When I push my heart rate high (really high for me is over 160 bpm, high is anything in the 150's), it's during interval training on the rower or skierg. At that heart rate I'm producing between 250 and 300 watts of power on either machine and it's pushing my limits of comfort to the extreme. It's brutal! I don't do that very often mind you. As I get fitter, it becomes more difficult to get the higher heart rates too, not easier. i.e. I produce more work at a lower heart rate.

Why doesnt it make sense? The highest that i have had my MaxHR to in the last month is 193 during a run (i am 55yrs) and i am regularly in the 170's. Those measurements are all off of my Polar m430 graphs, which seems pretty accurate. Lowest HR was 42 when sleeping. I had to change the max HR setting on the watch as it reached 178 and flatlined originally. The max HR drops rapidly once i stop.

[tropo]

21 minutes ago, Aussieroaming said:

Why doesnt it make sense? The highest that i have had my MaxHR to in the last month is 193 during a run (i am 55yrs) and i am regularly in the 170's. Those measurements are all off of my Polar m430 graphs, which seems pretty accurate. Lowest HR was 42 when sleeping. I had to change the max HR setting on the watch as it reached 178 and flatlined originally. The max HR drops rapidly once i stop.

This is not a competition to see how far up we can push our heart rates.
 

I'll retype the comment that didn't make sense to me.

 

Simon said:

Quote:

 

" hit 174 bpm, but I still feel fine and am just beginning to breath more deeply"

 

Just beginning to breath more deeply at near maximum heart rate.

 

I already explained to you that when I get near maximum heart rate I'm pushing 250 - 300 watts on a skierg or rower. That's quite brutal for me.

 

For example, when I'm fit, the total calories burned on my machines is far higher than my heart rate monitor indicates (Garmin), which assesses calories burned based only on heart rate, not watts of work done, giving a more accurate approximation of calories burned.

 

Of course, our power outputs will be much different at similar percentage of maximum heart rates, so as I said, it didn't make sense to me. Perhaps it's a lot different in non-strength sports like running. Perhaps as a strength athlete weighing over 100kg I'm far more taxed at the same (percentage of maximum) heart rates.

 

(I apologize if this is all as clear as mud)

[Darkkakashi]

i have read somewhere that in order to keep the workout benefitical and not negative for your heart you must not have an higher heart rate to a certain number while training.

 

this number is calculated by 220 minus your age. I guess there must be a countertheory to this.

 

concerning your diet, in my opinion you might be lacking a bit of clomplex carb, not everyday but maybe 1 day out of 2, just to keep the glycogen levels stable.

 

as when the glycogen reserves are empty, you can get that tiredness that you mentioned