Opened Bangkok Bank Account, tried to X-fer from US, trial ACH deposits failed

[Jingthing]

Of course not every expat religiously reads this forum. I hope this probable eventual cut off doesn't catch too many people by surprise that have been totally relying on using BB ACH "scheme" to get their funds to Thailand. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

So for now until a cut off date, people with EXISTING links that they've used before can expect them to still work to do ACH to BB NY? 

 

Yes... absolutely. Already linked/existing ACH links to BKKB NY should be fine -- FOR NOW.

 

 The only unknown variable being, at the moment, we don't know when an actual cutoff might come, and whether BKKB will provide any meaningful advance notice prior to that cutoff for the EXISTING domestic ACH system they've been running all these years.

 

FWIW, I did ask my contact there what would happen if someone were to attempt a BKKB NY ACH transfer AFTER the actual cutoff. And my contact there claimed the xferred money would either remain in, or be returned to their home bank account. But, the staff person said, they'd still be charged a fee by BKKB NY, which would seem an odd policy if in fact that turns out to be the case.

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[jerry921]

So I didn't see it said explicitly - it looks to me like what Nancy has set up via bill pay to business is an ACH transfer to another US account. Of course in that case they can't do the trial deposits, the assumption is someone else owns that account and you're accepting from the start that the money is going to somebody else. (The only thing I'm adding here is that it is an "ACH" version of bill pay, that's the part that wasn't explicitly said - I think).

 

I think it should continue to work as long as BB NY accepts ACH payments. And if they stop doing that, I think the Social Security DD will break too.

[jerry921]

Another thing I'd like to point out is that if you wire money from Schwab to BB NY, Schwab should consider that a domestic wire. So there's no ambiguity on whether they refund wire fees for international wires in that case, or whether you can sweet-talk them into rebating an international wire, you should get it back automatically as long as you have $100k in combined balances and qualify for the 3 fee-waived domestic wires per quarter.

 

You'll still have to pay BB their 200-500 Baht fee plus their exchange rate spread, but this looks to be a pretty good way to move large amounts of money to Thailand if you have both Schwab (>100k) and Bangkok Bank accounts.

 

I realize many people are basically living month-to-month and don't have $100k to their name. But I think more than just the richest 1% of retirees have $100k in an IRA they could move to Schwab, so I hope this option isn't out of the question for too many readers.

[Pib]

About this time last year is when BACS transfers via the Bangkok Bank "London" branch tightened-up....basically switching to a  process which required registration with the London branch.   Registration required some very specific info and supporting documentation.   BACS, Bankers Automated Clearing Services, is the UK's version of the U.S. Automated Clearing House (ACH). 

 

To this date, approx a year later,  Bangkok Bank still has below notice (see snapshot 1) which provides no details for BACS "ibanking" transfers...just says the service will be available soon...email them for more info.   There use to be a half of page of ibanking transfer details...that is, how to do it...but no more.    And apparently when a person does ask for the new BACS ibanking transfer details it's the same registration process/details now needed to flow a UK pension payment through the London branch (see snapshot 2 below).   In those details it's basically complete info on from who the funds are flowing from, who they are flowing to, for what purposes,  proof of address, etc.   Not an easy process IMO....surely drove more Brits to just using a money transfer services like Transferwise or using SWIFT.

 

Now back to the issue we are now seeing with new U.S. "ibanking" ACH  transfer link setup which at this point only affects the "setup of fund transfer link that use the trial deposits method."  Several months ago when the Bangkok Bank New York branch started rejecting trial deposits is also when all their detailed info regarding how to do/setup an ACH "ibanking" transfer via their NY branch was replaced with basically an identical statement regarding use of the London branch for BACS ibanking transfers.  That is, ibanking transfers will be available soon...changes to terms and conditions....email us for more info.  See snapshot 3.

 

And when  you do email Bangkok Bank eventually (might take a few weeks) you get a email response talking International ACH Transfer (IAT) format is now required as already been reported in this and similar threads.    I do not expect the wording in Snapshot 3 talking use of the NY branch to change anytime soon....just like how the wording for talking use of the London branch has not changed for a year.  "Soon" on the Thai time scale can some times mimic the geological time scale, continental drift time scale, etc.

 

Recommend people have a Plan B in place to replace use of the Bangkok Bank New York branch ACH routing method for "ibanking" transfers.

 

And once gain, I do not feel U.S. govt benefit payments to be affected due to additional information/special Direct Deposit accounts already associated with those payment.  Those govt payments combined with the special Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit accounts provide the same info and safeguards as an IAT as to why the payment is occurring, full details (name and address) who its coming from, full details (name and address) who it going to, etc....etc...etc.  I really don't see govt benefit payments being affect.  Plus, Bangkok Bank still has the exact same instructions regarding use of the NY branch for your govt benefit payments...that is, the NY branch routing number to use, opening a special Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account with an in-Thailand branch, etc.    Only their instructions/policy regarding transfers "you initiate" at your bank are changing; not a transfer/payment like a pension payment initiated from Uncle Sam.

 

Snapshot 1 regarding use of London branch for ibanking transfers

 

Snapshot 2...procedure/info now need to flow govt pensions through London branch use BACS

 

Snapshot 3 regarding use of New York branch for ibanking transfers.  When you do email them you will get a response talking use of IAT format. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

42 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

I think it should continue to work as long as BB NY accepts ACH payments. And if they stop doing that, I think the Social Security DD will break too.

 

If BKKB shuts down their U.S. domestic ACH system as they've indicated they're going to do, then almost certainly Nancy's bill payment method, which relies on the NY branch's ACH routing number, is going to end as well.

 

However, there is no indication anywhere in this process that the current SS DD system with BKKB is going to change or be disrupted. And in fact, my contact at BKKB NY has specifically said it will not be.  The federal government as a funds sender is not the same as you and me Joe private citizens.

 

[jerry921]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

If BKKB shuts down their U.S. domestic ACH system as they've indicated they're going to do, then almost certainly Nancy's bill payment method, which relies on the NY branch's ACH routing number, is going to end as well.

 

However, there is no indication anywhere in this process that the current SS DD system with BKKB is going to change or be disrupted. And in fact, my contact at BKKB NY has specifically said it will not be.  The federal government as a funds sender is not the same as you and me Joe private citizens.

 

Agree with your first paragraph, and I hope you're right in the second.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

36 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

Another thing I'd like to point out is that if you wire money from Schwab to BB NY, Schwab should consider that a domestic wire. So there's no ambiguity on whether they refund wire fees for international wires in that case, or whether you can sweet-talk them into rebating an international wire, you should get it back automatically as long as you have $100k in combined balances and qualify for the 3 fee-waived domestic wires per quarter.

 

 

I don't know that anyone here has ever attempted to send a domestic wire transfer to the BKKB NY branch.

 

Wire transfers rely on SWIFT codes. ACH transfers rely on ABA/routing numbers, that are entirely different.

 

Here's what I see for BKKB NY and Swift code.  But what would happen to a wire sent there to that code, I have no idea.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

32 minutes ago, Pib said:

 

Snapshot 3 regarding use of New York branch for ibanking transfers.  When you do email them you will get a response talking use of IAT format. 

 

 

 

Pib, I'll just note again here as has already been said elsewhere:

 

1. We both understand that typical U.S. consumer bank account holders don't have any direct access to the IAT system you're talking about via their home bank online banking setups, and..

 

2. Subsequent to the BKKB email you received many weeks ago now, my contact at BKKB NY specifically advised that they've since abandoned the IAT approach referenced in that email for that very reason, it was going to prove unworkable for their customers.

 

Now, I guess, that doesn't rule out the NY branch ending up trying to set up some kind of similar system as occurred with London where users basically have to register with the London (or NY) branch and provide all kinds of detailed info.  But it remains to be see what if any replacement solution BKKB will try to mount.

 

[Pib]

 
Now, I guess, that doesn't rule out the NY branch ending up trying to set up some kind of similar system as occurred with London where users basically have to register with the London (or NY) branch and provide all kinds of detailed info.  But it remains to be see what if any replacement solution BKKB will try to mount.
 

Maybe BKKB is betting that under one continental drift computer model that the U.S. east coast and Thailand will joint together in the future and Thailand will then become the 51st state which will solve the current ACH transfer issue. So with that fix on the far horizon no need for an interim solution.

[Jingthing]

It's hard to imagine what they could possibly do to replace the current scheme. I'm surprised they're even trying.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Pib]

And here is why the IAT format for "ibanking" transfers is not applying to "federal benefit payments" except for payment to folks living in Mexico, Canada, and Panama.   A partial quote from the U.S. Treasury Dept Office of Foreign Assets Control where  in 2011 they announced amendment of a federal rule relating to use of IAT for certain govt benefit payments.     See partial quote below of final rule.

 

However, when you read the comments made during the rule development/comment period you'll see the U.S. Treasury does want to get all federal agencies into using IAT in the future.   See the weblink below for more info.   And if anyone can understand everything at the weblink you should be working at Treasury.

 

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/fsservices/instit/pmt/ach/regulations/31cfr210_text.htm

  (8) ACH Rule 2.11 (International ACH Transactions), which shall not 
apply (i) until January 1, 2012 to credit entries other than Federal 
benefit payments delivered to Mexico, Canada and Panama through the 
FedGlobal ACH Payment System; (ii) until June 30, 2013 for debit 
entries originated by agencies; and (iii) to entries representing the 
payment of a Federal tax obligation by a taxpayer.

[Pib]

Bangkok Bank updated their webpage today/27 July 18 regarding how to send funds to Thailand from your U.S. bank/using ibanking. 

 

Effective 1 Apr 19 ACH all transaction not transmitted in the International ACH Transfer (IAT) format will be returned.   

U.S. bank/credit unions do not IAT for retail accounts...the kind of bank account the common man has.  IAT is only used in cooperate accounts for international ACH payment of good/services, payroll, etc.  

 

So, this means a person will need to use SWIFT/Int'l Wire from their U.S. bank/credit union...or maybe start using a money transfer service.  

 

No change, repeat, not change  in U.S. govt benefit payments such social security, military retirement, etc.  Those benefits payments will continue to flow from Uncle Sam as they include additional info/flow into a special Direct Deposit account like mentioned earlier.  Plus, U.S. Treasury has ruled most govt payments do not need to flow in the IAT format at this time as mentioned in above post.

 

Click Here to Go to Bangkok Bank Weblink

 

Quote

 

Step-by-step Instructions
The following step-by-step instructions are available:

Advice to senders using US bank internet banking services If you have a U.S. bank account, you can conveniently transfer funds to a recipient's bank account at Bangkok Bank in Thailand via the internet by completing the steps described below for an international ACH transaction (IAT). International ACH payments are processed in accordance with operating rules and formats developed by the Electronic Payments Association (NACHA). The IAT is a special code (a Standard Entry Class or “SEC” Code) for ACH payments that enables financial institutions such as Bangkok Bank to identify and monitor international ACH payments and to perform screening to ensure compliance with Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC, U.S. Department of the Treasury) requirements.  The NACHA  rules require Bangkok Bank’s New York Branch which serves as intermediary, to ensure that payments that are transmitted to account of beneficiary in other country are appropriately classified as IATs and contain information as described below. Bangkok Bank, New York Branch, is required to receive the ACH transactions in the required IAT format.  This means that we must require that senders who wish to transmit funds to recipients at Bangkok Bank in Thailand to provide certain identifying information. Instructions To initiate a such an international transaction , using internet banking when you log on to your bank in U.S. website, please select the International ACH and provide the following information to your bank: Your name and physical address in Thailand; Your bank account number and the name and address of your Bangkok Bank Branch in Thailand; and The 9-digit routing number 026008691 of Bangkok Bank New York Branch, which acts as intermediary in the transaction.   Important Note:  As some bank in U.S. may not provide the International ACH thorough their internet banking, please contact your bank on how to process your transfer. Once Bangkok Bank’s New York branch receives the payment with the appropriate IAT format, they will process your payment to Bangkok Bank in Thailand for further credit to a recipient's bank account at Bangkok Bank in Thailand. With effective from April 1, 2019, New York branch only process ACH with appropriate IAT format and all non-IAT transactions will be returned.       Bangkok Bank in Thailand will be able to credit the recipient’s account in Thailand only when the name and account number of the recipient in your transfer instruction from the banks in the U.S. matches the recipient’s name and account number at Bangkok Bank. If you wish to enquire more information, please contact Bangkok Bank, New York on (1-212) 422-8200 or e-mail [email protected]

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, Pib said:

As some bank in U.S. may not provide the International ACH thorough their internet banking, please contact your bank on how to process your transfer.

 

Thanks for the good catch, Pib.

 

Today is exactly two weeks since my emails to them asking what exactly their domestic ACH transfers cutoff date would be.... so perhaps this is their answer -- APRIL 1, 2019!   Because, they've still never directly replied to my emails up through today.

 

I just have one question for BKKB re this --  please tell me the name of ONE U.S. consumer banking institution that offers online banking IAT transfers to its consumer/retail account holders?

 

Of all my various U.S. accounts, not a single one has any online banking option for executing an International ACH Transaction with the ability to enter all the info details that BKKB above is saying need to be entered.

 

Unless U.S. banks behind the scenes are suddenly going to be adding the IAT feature to their online banking modes (something they haven't done for many years), this BKKB advisory seems like a big pile of banking doubletalk -- here's the instructions you need to follow, but they're instructions that no U.S. bank I know of currently supports.

Edited July 27, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[lopburi3]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Unless U.S. banks behind the scenes are suddenly going to be adding the IAT feature to their online banking modes (something they haven't done for many years), this BKKB advisory seems like a big pile of banking doubletalk -- here's the instructions you need to follow, but they're instructions that no U.S. bank I know of currently supports.

But banks that deal with foreign residence customers might adapt such procedures prior to April next year.  Will not be holding my breath - but it could happen.  At least we have a date now.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

But banks that deal with foreign residence customers might adapt such procedures prior to April next year.  Will not be holding my breath - but it could happen.  At least we have a date now.

 

That's certainly a possibility, Lopburi. But the part that makes me very doubtful about that is -- IAT is hardly a new transfers format, it's been around since the late 2000s, at least 10 years now, and used pretty much exclusively in the corporate domain.

 

In all the intervening years, I've seen no migration of IAT into U.S. consumer banking at all.  And if you Google search for IAT these days, most of what you'll find is stuff dating back that 10 years or so, and little to nothing lately. So that kind of suggests there's not any lurking wave of IAT consumer banking enablement that's coming down the road anytime soon.

 

 

[lopburi3]

29 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

In all the intervening years, I've seen no migration of IAT into U.S. consumer banking at all.

But there was no need - we live in a very fluid world and new rules are in place and some adjustments are normal.  SSN was not asked of foreign accounts until recently - until recently I could renew a DL without a personal appearance.  Now most places want two methods of ID (used to be they felt lucky to get one photo ID).  How long do we have before the computers take over?  ?

 

Much as I might like do not believe we can turn back time. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

But there was no need - we live in a very fluid world and new rules are in place and some adjustments are normal. 

 

The problem is -- for U.S. banks, there still is no need to go to IAT, and they have no desire or need to solve a problem pertaining to BKK Bank and its relatively few U.S. expat customers.

 

For U.S. banks, it's the same now as always:

--transfer money inside the U.S., domestic ACH

--transfer money internationally, international wire

 

Why would any of the U.S. banks see or feel the need to change what they already have?

 

Perhaps, at some point, they'll realize they're losing international transfer business to the private senders like Transferwise because of the typically high U.S. international wire fees. But thus far, that doesn't seem to be a concern most are particularly interested in addressing.

 

Various folks here already have accounts with some of the more internationally oriented finance institutions -- Penfed, Navy Fed, USAA, Service Credit Union and others, and AFAIK, none of those currently offer any access to IAT.  And if they don't, how likely is it that any of the mega banks are going to go down that road?

 

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib has a new thread specifically on the latest web announcement by BKK Bank that their current domestic ACH transfers system thru the NY branch is ending as of April 1, 2019. That's just for consumer account transfers.  Federal direct deposit like Social Security to continue unchanged.

 

See here:

 

 

 

 

[Pib]

Yeap, IAT is nothing new....it's been around since approx 2009 but it's primarily a method used by cooperate accounts for international payment of goods/services, payroll, etc.   I do not know of any bank/credit union that offers IAT for a retail account like the common man has.   I sure know none of my U.S. bank/credit unions accounts (and I really have more than I need) offer IAT; they only offer Domestic ACH or Domestic/International Wire. 

 

If U.S. banksters thought IAT was a money-maker for "retail" accounts they would have been offered long ago.

[Suradit69]

On 7/19/2018 at 10:52 AM, Pib said:

Their receiving/conversion will not appear anywhere on your ibanking statement/passbook as it was applied before posting to your account which fools many into thinking no fee was applied but indeed it was.   Ditto for those who transfer via the Bangkok Bank NY ACH routing method plus the NY branch fee which is sliced off as the funds flow thru them.

I get a mobile phone text message from Bangkok Bank detailing the deposit (using Bangkok Bank in NY) that includes the dollar amount sent from my US bank, the dollar amount charged at Bangkok Bank NY, the baht charge when the transfer is received here, the exchange rate used, the baht deposit amount and my new current balance.

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I get a mobile phone text message from Bangkok Bank detailing the deposit (using Bangkok Bank in NY) that includes the dollar amount sent from my US bank, the dollar amount charged at Bangkok Bank NY, the baht charge when the transfer is received here, the exchange rate used, the baht deposit amount and my new current balance.

Yeap, I do too.  

 

For others listening in, it's called the SMS Remittance Alert available of incoming international transfers...and it's free.  See weblink below for more info.   It even works for transfers from money transfer services like Transferwise since coding within the transfer says it's an international transfers although the last leg of a Transferwise transfer is a domestic transfer within Thailand.

 

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/SMSAlerts/Pages/SMSRemittanceAlert.aspx

[Suradit69]

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

The problem is -- for U.S. banks, there still is no need to go to IAT, and they have no desire or need to solve a problem pertaining to BKK Bank and its relatively few U.S. expat customers.

But is this an issue for Bangkok Bank and American people resident in Thailand only?

 

It seems at least possible that Americans living in other countries may have local bank accounts in banks that have branches in the US and send deposits domestically to the US branch???

 

So maybe an American lives in Australia where he banks with National Australia Bank. NAB has a branch in the US and maybe he tops up his account in Australia by doing a domestic transfer to the NAB branch in the US.

 

I'm just speculating and fabricating an example, but it seems that this issue must affect some other banks besides Bangkok Bank.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Suradit69

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

I'm just speculating and fabricating an example, but it seems that this issue must affect some other banks besides Bangkok Bank.

 

It's an interesting question that unfortunately I don't know the answer to.

 

But I suspect the overarching answer here is:

 

Just as farangs in Thailand are little to none of a constituency for the Thai banking industry, U.S. expats in foreign countries are little to none of a constituency for the U.S. banking industry.

 

If we mattered in the big scheme of things, you wouldn't find some U.S. banks charging U.S. residents $50-$60 for international wire transfers.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jingthing]

Lots of expats pose as U.S. residents to avoid problems. So it looks like a smaller market than it is to the U.S. firms.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[joealx]

All national banks ( banks with National or N.A in their name) are members of the Federal Reserve. They use the IAT system. Credit unions are not banks.

[Thailand J]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:02 AM, jerry921 said:

Another thing I'd like to point out is that if you wire money from Schwab to BB NY, Schwab should consider that a domestic wire. So there's no ambiguity on whether they refund wire fees for international wires in that case, or whether you can sweet-talk them into rebating an international wire, you should get it back automatically as long as you have $100k in combined balances and qualify for the 3 fee-waived domestic wires per quarter.

 

You'll still have to pay BB their 200-500 Baht fee plus their exchange rate spread, but this looks to be a pretty good way to move large amounts of money to Thailand if you have both Schwab (>100k) and Bangkok Bank accounts.

 

I realize many people are basically living month-to-month and don't have $100k to their name. But I think more than just the richest 1% of retirees have $100k in an IRA they could move to Schwab, so I hope this option isn't out of the question for too many readers.

I got the Schwabs $25 fees waived when i wire transfered to Malaysia ( Public Bank, RHB etc) ..and directly to Bangkok Bank in Thailand (BKKBTHBK).

Definitely were not domestic.

Fidelity and Vanguard charge $10-$15 for those who do not want or unable to keep high balance accounts.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Thailand J

[mtls2005]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:35 AM, Thailand J said:

Fidelity and Vanguard charge $10-$15 for those who do not want or unable to keep high balance accounts.

 

I think Fidelity charges $10 if you initiate the wire on-line, $15 if you involve a rep.? 

 

And I think you have to have completed, have notarized medallion signature, and mail in a Bank Wire Authorization form, or complete it in a Fidelity office. (Although you may be able to initiate an international wire transfer with an OTP sent to your cell phone, and answer a pre-arranged security question?)

 

I assume you'd transfer USD to say your Bangkok Bank account in Thailand? Other than their fee schedule (200 - 500 baht), are there other "hidden fees" at BBL, in the form of a lower exchange rate?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by mtls2005

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

29 minutes ago, mtls2005 said:

 

I think Fidelity charges $10 if you initiate the wire on-line, $15 if you involve a rep.? 

 

And I think you have to have completed, have notarized medallion signature, and mail in a Bank Wire Authorization form, or complete it in a Fidelity office. (Although you may be able to initiate an international wire transfer with an OTP sent to your cell phone, and answer a pre-arranged security question?)

 

 

I actually printed out and read Fidelity's international wire authorization form the other day, and was quite surprised to see their requirement for a "medallion signature" -- a term I'd never heard of before, and am not sure if it's something that's even possible to obtain in Thailand.

 

It's hard enough in Thailand to get documents "notarized" in a way that may be acceptable to various entities in the U.S.  But medallion signatures are a similar but different thing entirely. Have no idea on how that would fare here in Thailand. Maybe someone else here knows...

 

My impression of the Fidelity form -- but I didn't spend so much time with it getting into all the details -- is the authorization form would be a one-time thing per recipient account -- not that you'd have to get a new medallion signature every time you wanted to do another transfer to the same recipient.

 

 

[mtls2005]

48 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

My impression of the Fidelity form -- but I didn't spend so much time with it getting into all the details -- is the authorization form would be a one-time thing per recipient account -- not that you'd have to get a new medallion signature every time you wanted to do another transfer to the same recipient.

 

 

I've seen, heard and had to get that Medallion authorization a few times in the U.S. If you fill out the form in a Fidelity office you don't need that, or they provide it for free. Maybe Citi might offer this service for a fee here?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medallion_signature_guarantee

 

I'm still researching it but I think you can use that form to set up a link for an international wire transfer from Fidelity to say, your Bangkok Bank account in Thailand, which can be used on an on-going basis, and that that account would then show up in the transfer options on-line. I have a few domestic (ACH) transfer options set up currently.

 

I tried to add Bangkok Bank, after getting through the secondary security authorization (OTP/SMS), but then got bounced to the authorization form.

 

I'll do some more research, but plan to sort this out on my next trip back (Christmas/New Years, but may have to go mid-Sep as well). I'll probably add both BBL and SCB.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by mtls2005