Britain must move in Brexit negotiations, Germany says

[dunroaming]

May has gone on holiday.  She needs a break from all the Brexit waffle.  I know how she feels ?

“We are leaving the EU, get used to it!”  That has been the mantra for way over a year now.  All the arguments rage on and we are no further to knowing what Brexit will bring,  so difficult to get used to something when you don't know what it is. We are all sick and tired of hearing about it and the rhetoric on here has become repetitive and meaningless.

But there has to be a conclusion eventually.  You can’t keep kicking the can down the road forever.  Whether the people get a say or not we are going to be left with three alternatives.  Accepting the deal that May has done with Brussels, leaving the EU with no deal or scrapping Brexit altogether.

I suspect whatever result we go with, it will trigger a general election.  This will be weighing heavily on the mind of May (or whoever is PM at the time) and that will have a bearing on which way they decide to jump.

I also suspect there will be a leadership challenge to Corbyn before too long.  The Labour party know a general election would be a great opportunity but they also know that Corbyn could jeopardise that opportunity.

 

 

 

2019 will be a an interesting year, one way or another.

 

[tebee]

At last - a real  Brexit dividend !

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-tories-are-sliding-towards-oblivion-w7d072xsp?shareToken=4f17f810af2aaa8b380f793f404d17e9

[anon537687643]

Go to hell ! EU Deutchland hypocrisy


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[citybiker]

At last - a real  Brexit dividend !
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-tories-are-sliding-towards-oblivion-w7d072xsp?shareToken=4f17f810af2aaa8b380f793f404d17e9

This stuck out as poor bitterness from a sacked chancellor with a grudge to grind of a former colleague.

“They promised this nirvana, this taking back control, so suddenly we’d be in charge of our money, our borders, our immigration policy and all that”

I don’t recall anyone promising Nirvana, although I do recall George and his emergency budget. TM is well known for being difficult and nicknamed the submarine for diving for cover when things got tough.

Personally, I think she’s been very ill advised & still is to this day.

Although I do concur that Brexit won’t be stopped.


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[jenny2017]

On 7/26/2018 at 1:18 PM, SupermarineS6B said:

Der,  who's claiming credit ?   First hand experience from a man that was there surely must count...... My father always said that Germany wasn't finished yet...... I think he might be right looking at the state of the EU ........

 

Pathetic. 

[dick dasterdly]

21 hours ago, sandyf said:

One day the leavers will get their heads out of the sand, they are too busy with theoretical garbage to actually pay attention to what is going on. They all blamed Airbus for scaremongering without paying attention to what was being said.

 

After withdrawal the UK will cease to participate in the activities of EASA and consequently the UK Civil Aviation Authority will no longer need to ensure compliance by UK-based companies with the EU aviation safety legislation.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations

I'm not sure of your point.

 

Are you suggesting that the uk will set lower aviation standards if it leaves the eu?

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, tebee said:

At last - a real  Brexit dividend !

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/george-osborne-tories-are-sliding-towards-oblivion-w7d072xsp?shareToken=4f17f810af2aaa8b380f793f404d17e9

Is this the same osborne that threatened a punishment budget if the populace had the temerity to vote leave? ?

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, citybiker said:

 

This stuck out as poor bitterness from a sacked chancellor with a grudge to grind of a former colleague.

“They promised this nirvana, this taking back control, so suddenly we’d be in charge of our money, our borders, our immigration policy and all that”

I don’t recall anyone promising Nirvana, although I do recall George and his emergency budget. TM is well known for being difficult and nicknamed the submarine for diving for cover when things got tough.

Personally, I think she’s been very ill advised & still is to this day.

Although I do concur that Brexit won’t be stopped.


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Sorry, I read your far better post after replying to the original post quoting osborne -  (presumably) thinking him a trustworthy source ?!

[citybiker]

Sorry, I read your far better post after replying to the original post quoting osborne -  (presumably) thinking him a trustworthy source ?!

It’s ok, it’s all part of the humorous side of this thread.


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[ramrod711]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 11:38 AM, petermik said:

The EU are simply trying to make the UK,s exit as difficult as possible full stop.....we voted out...we want out

I have no "iron in the fire" as I am Canadian, but I am interested and curious. I wonder if people would change their vote, leave or stay, given the advent of Trump and his attacks on both Europe and Britain.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not sure of your point.

 

Are you suggesting that the uk will set lower aviation standards if it leaves the eu?

Not suggesting that at all. Out of EASA they will be unable to prove compliance as all approvals and certificates will become invalid.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, citybiker said:

23 hours ago, sandyf said:

One day the leavers will get their heads out of the sand, they are too busy with theoretical garbage to actually pay attention to what is going on. They all blamed Airbus for scaremongering without paying attention to what was being said.
 
After withdrawal the UK will cease to participate in the activities of EASA and consequently the UK Civil Aviation Authority will no longer need to ensure compliance by UK-based companies with the EU aviation safety legislation.
https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations
[/

Do you not think behind the scenes all this is getting discussed and thrashed out by ministers & C/S doing the fine detail work.

Aviation
CAP
Chemicals
Logistics
Security
Etc etc

If Brussels want to reject everything the issues is with them.



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"If Brussels want to reject everything the issues is with them."

Brussels will reject anything that breaches an EU treaty, why would anyone think they would do otherwise.

Its a bit like expecting TM to unfreeze pensions.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, ramrod711 said:

I have no "iron in the fire" as I am Canadian, but I am interested and curious. I wonder if people would change their vote, leave or stay, given the advent of Trump and his attacks on both Europe and Britain.

I doubt it as most (?) brits dislike trump, and only care about the US as far as it affects the uk.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not sure of your point.

 

Are you suggesting that the uk will set lower aviation standards if it leaves the eu?

 

56 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not suggesting that at all. Out of EASA they will be unable to prove compliance as all approvals and certificates will become invalid.

I'm still not sure of your point?

[citybiker]

"If Brussels want to reject everything the issues is with them."
Brussels will reject anything that breaches an EU treaty, why would anyone think they would do otherwise.
Its a bit like expecting TM to unfreeze pensions.

The treaty can also be amended, adjusted to suit as JRM quite right highlights to Guy in this committee question session.

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[dunroaming]

The EU's position has been consistent from day one.  Britain then stated their negotiating red lines after May became PM.  The EU continues to hold it's ground still confirming that Britain will not going to get a special deal.  Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along.

 

All the bluster and threats in the world isn't going to change that.  If Britain wants a workable Brexit they must make concessions.  Yesterday it was leaked that May has privately conceded that EU judges would be the legal arbiter of disputes over payments to Brussels and the residency rights of more than three million European citizens.

 

As far as I am concerned that is just lunacy and a complete cop out.  I assume the Brexiteers feel the same.  Question is why is Theresa May still Prime Minister?  Why hasn't Mr Smug, JRM or her other arch critic Boris Johnson stepped up with a leadership challenge?  More to the point why aren't the Brexiteers asking the same question?

[tebee]

11 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

...

 

As far as I am concerned that is just lunacy and a complete cop out.  I assume the Brexiteers feel the same.  Question is why is Theresa May still Prime Minister?  Why hasn't Mr Smug, JRM or her other arch critic Boris Johnson stepped up with a leadership challenge?  More to the point why aren't the Brexiteers asking the same question?

Poison chalice anyone ? 

 

The problem is  Mr. Johnson, Mr. Gove, and other  were confident that the Leave campaign was a hopeless cause, they made ridiculous claims that they had no expectation of ever having to fulfill. They said that Brexit would make Britain both richer and more independent, with more money for the National Health Service, much greater control of immigration and continued friction-free trade with Europe.    

Every  warning from the other side — about how any Brexit would damage trade, business and jobs — was dismissed airily by the Brexiteers. There were no costs or downsides in this vision of the future.

 

Since the Leave campaign unexpectedly won, nobody, from the prime minister to Mr. Johnson to the Labour Party, has been able to come up with a plan for exiting the European Union that can satisfy both a majority in Parliament and the expectant public. Why? Because fulfilling the false promises peddled  during the campaign is impossible.

 

There is a  gulf between the easy, prosperous, productive Brexit that its voters are impatiently expecting, and the grim, complicated cost of disentangling economies that have been intertwined for decades has poisoned and paralyzed British politics. No one know how to span this.  The Conservatives cannot admit to the electorate that they were deceived without splitting the party.

 

Instead of apologizing for misleading voters, the Brexiteers have doubled down, taking refuge in optimistic slogans and vapid promises, refusing to believe the increasingly agitated evidence from hospitals, airlines, farmers, supermarkets and factories that a hard Brexit will damage them all.

 

 

 

 

[vogie]

39 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

The EU's position has been consistent from day one.  Britain then stated their negotiating red lines after May became PM.  The EU continues to hold it's ground still confirming that Britain will not going to get a special deal.  Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along.

 

All the bluster and threats in the world isn't going to change that.  If Britain wants a workable Brexit they must make concessions.  Yesterday it was leaked that May has privately conceded that EU judges would be the legal arbiter of disputes over payments to Brussels and the residency rights of more than three million European citizens.

 

As far as I am concerned that is just lunacy and a complete cop out.  I assume the Brexiteers feel the same.  Question is why is Theresa May still Prime Minister?  Why hasn't Mr Smug, JRM or her other arch critic Boris Johnson stepped up with a leadership challenge?  More to the point why aren't the Brexiteers asking the same question?

You have just stated, 

"Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along."

 

So they are saying if you leave you will get a very unsavoury deal. Do you think that sounds like blackmail, do you really want to be a partner with somebody who would want to do that to us, many people would say that is all the more reason to leave. It's just like my next door neighbour saying, if you stop paying my mortgage I will throw rotting manure over your fence.

Do we have some pride in ourselves or do we just roll over and take whatever they want to inflict upon us.

Edited July 30, 2018 by vogie

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

You have just stated, 

"Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along."

 

So they are saying if you leave you will get a very unsavoury deal. Do you think that sounds like blackmail, do you really want to be a partner with somebody who would want to do that to us, many people would that is all the more reason to leave. It's just like my next door neighbour saying, if you stop paying my mortgage I will throw rotting manure over your fence.

Do we have some pride in ourselves or do we just roll over and take whatever they want to inflict upon us.

Why should the UK be treated differently to any other nation that is not part of the EU? Maybe if the EU had decided to expel the UK it would have owed the UK something. But the UK wasn't pushed; it jumped. Do you think the UK is entitled to a special deal?

[citybiker]

The EU's position has been consistent from day one.  Britain then stated their negotiating red lines after May became PM.  The EU continues to hold it's ground still confirming that Britain will not going to get a special deal.  Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along.
 
All the bluster and threats in the world isn't going to change that.  If Britain wants a workable Brexit they must make concessions.  Yesterday it was leaked that May has privately conceded that EU judges would be the legal arbiter of disputes over payments to Brussels and the residency rights of more than three million European citizens.
 
As far as I am concerned that is just lunacy and a complete cop out.  I assume the Brexiteers feel the same.  Question is why is Theresa May still Prime Minister?  Why hasn't Mr Smug, JRM or her other arch critic Boris Johnson stepped up with a leadership challenge?  More to the point why aren't the Brexiteers asking the same question?

I’m sure they are asking the same questions behind closed doors, however May is refusing to budge unless sacked, which would destabilise things further which the HMG must avoid.

In short....The PM position during these talks is now classed as a poison chalice. Nobody wants it and the conservatives must ensure the ERG & 1922 make HMG accountable.


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[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

I’m sure they are asking the same questions behind closed doors, however May is refusing to budge unless sacked, which would destabilise things further which the HMG must avoid.

In short....The PM position during these talks is now classed as a poison chalice. Nobody wants it and the conservatives must ensure the ERG & 1922 make HMG accountable.


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And why is it a poisoned chalice?

[androokery]

But seriously, about Northern Ireland and the border with EU/Ireland, if there is no "special status" attributed to Northern Ireland and Brexit goes into effect - what will be the outcome?

1. EU puts up a wall/border with customs and everything, as there obviously needs to be at the outer border of the European Union.

2. But, but, but there isn't a border with a wall and customs between Sweden (EU) and Norway (not EU)... But then again Norway is part of Schengen. And Ireland is not...

3. Should Northern Ireland be given away to Ireland?

4. Should Northern Ireland become a sovereign state? Free to choose if it wants to be part of the European Union?

5. Or should Ireland be expelled from the European Union? I mean it does have some weird (religious) laws on the books.

 

Which one will it be?

[dunroaming]

47 minutes ago, vogie said:

You have just stated, 

"Britain will be worse off as far as any trade agreement with the EU is concerned.  That is to dissuade any other EU members from following Britain's lead.  The EU have been open about that all along."

 

So they are saying if you leave you will get a very unsavoury deal. Do you think that sounds like blackmail, do you really want to be a partner with somebody who would want to do that to us, many people would say that is all the more reason to leave. It's just like my next door neighbour saying, if you stop paying my mortgage I will throw rotting manure over your fence.

Do we have some pride in ourselves or do we just roll over and take whatever they want to inflict upon us.

Now you are getting it!  Not so much blackmail as an out and out ultimatum.  They stated their position BEFORE the referendum and the remain campaigners broadcast it loud and clear. It is referred to as "project fear" by the Brexiteers.  Then comes the referendum and people voted to leave anyway.  Fair enough but don't cry foul now because you were warned of the consequences.

 

But you seem to think that there is some pride in ending up worse off than we are now.  How about accepting that you were lied to and kick the <deleted> of those who did that to you!  Instead you have become apologists for them and looking to blame everyone else.  If you take pride in that then god help you!

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

So they are saying if you leave you will get a very unsavoury deal. Do you think that sounds like blackmail, do you really want to be a partner with somebody who would want to do that to us, many people would say that is all the more reason to leave.

This is a hostile divorce being called by the UK.  Do you expect the other side to just roll over and agree to your demands?  I can only assume you have never been divorced.

Edited July 30, 2018 by dunroaming

[Sir Dude]

The UK is either in or out and there is no half-way special deal house, as the EU will not accept that, and will only offer WTO rules at best as that's how they treat everyone outside the EU. However, the UK does 60% of it's trade on WTO rules anyhow. It just has to bite-the-bullet, leave the Borg collective and start doing trade deals with everywhere that is lining up who want to do them asap...looks like the Chinese have just said they are up-for-it swift style along with the Ozzies, US and many others. "Project Fear" is well and truly on overdrive trying to brainwash the sheeple. 

[Sir Dude]

Double post due to crappy Internet connection

Edited July 30, 2018 by Sir Dude

[bristolboy]

3 minutes ago, Sir Dude said:

The UK is either in or out and there is no half-way special deal house, as the EU will not accept that, and will only offer WTO rules at best as that's how they treat everyone outside the EU. However, the UK does 60% of it's trade on WTO rules anyhow. It just has to bite-the-bullet, leave the Borg collective and start doing trade deals with everywhere that is lining up who want to do them asap...looks like the Chinese have just said they are up-for-it swift style along with the Ozzies, US and many others. "Project Fear" is well and truly on overdrive trying to brainwash the sheeple. 

No, the uk doesn't do 60 percent of its trade on WTO rules. 43 percent of its trade is with the Eu. In addition, another 15 percent is with nations or blocs that have trade agreements with the EU. So that's close to 60 percent of the UK's foreign trade.

[alfieconn]

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I doubt it as most (?) brits dislike trump, and only care about the US as far as it affects the uk.

Don't talk for the UK unless you have  specific figs !

[Sir Dude]

A hundred thousand illiberal liberals turning up in London does not equate to the opinion of the UK public...Pfft.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Sir Dude

[vogie]

35 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Now you are getting it!  Not so much blackmail as an out and out ultimatum.  They stated their position BEFORE the referendum and the remain campaigners broadcast it loud and clear. It is referred to as "project fear" by the Brexiteers.  Then comes the referendum and people voted to leave anyway.  Fair enough but don't cry foul now because you were warned of the consequences.

 

But you seem to think that there is some pride in ending up worse off than we are now.  How about accepting that you were lied to and kick the <deleted> of those who did that to you!  Instead you have become apologists for them and looking to blame everyone else.  If you take pride in that then god help you!

What I have noticed that remainers are becoming nastier on here with their replies, what do you think?