temporary foriegn 'ownership' of property when thai wife dies

[tutsiwarrior]

2 hours ago, Delight said:

 Just to clarify

A Was the house purchased before or after marriage?

B  Did your wife leave a  Will -If so who are  the beneficiaries.?

 

C Do you have Usufruct-one that states you can live in the house till your death? This is important . With this in your possession -you can stay. The new owner will have to honour it.

 

Edit

 

I have just read your last post

ie No Will -but you have a usufruct

To my mind your circumstances are very simple

 

The Thai law is very specific in relation the distribution of assets where there is no will

 

It is as follows

1. descendants
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of full blood
4. brothers and sisters of half blood
5. grandparents
6. uncles and aunts
7. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

 

The way I read this is that her children will inherit all her assets. they will be divided up equally.

Given that your usufruct is based on your life -then you stay there.

Simple

 

 

OK, now that changes my understanding of what's presently going on...if without a will the first beneficiaries are the descendants then what's going on at the courthouse now is the transfer of the property to the daughter...my understanding was different and it now looks like I need a lawyer urgently...

 

to complicate matters and FWIW the daughter is not my wife's biological daughter (my wife was her biological aunt) and my wife's name is not on the birth certificate...but she's looked after the girl from birth...my mother in law is alive and maybe the transfer is going to her...she was with us at the courthouse...and I was asked by the courthouse lady to allow her to be the executor to which I agreed as I thought that it was a matter of falangs not being able to be executors...something else that wasn't made clear...

 

AFAIK the usufruct gives me a lifetime entitlement to live in the house ('control the property') but now my unease is increasing for other reasons...

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by tutsiwarrior

[Renter]

good luck with a lawyer here.....you'll need it.

[musiclover]

7 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

OK, now that changes my understanding of what's presently going on...if without a will the first beneficiaries are the descendants then what's going on at the courthouse now is the transfer of the property to the daughter...my understanding was different and it now looks like I need a lawyer urgently...

 

to complicate matters and FWIW the daughter is not a blood descendant (my wife had no blood descendants) and my wife's name is not on the birth certificate...but she's looked after the girl from birth...my mother in law is alive and maybe the transfer is going to her...she was with us at the courthouse...

 

 

Absolutely incorrect!!!!!!!!!   You will be first beneficiary!!  50%+ equal  share of balance with other descendants 

I've actually gone through this whole process and it seems many other posters are just giving opinions on Thai probate law ..

Get a lawyer, become sole executor.....asap!!   

[musiclover]

2 hours ago, Delight said:

 Just to clarify

A Was the house purchased before or after marriage?

B  Did your wife leave a  Will -If so who are  the beneficiaries.?

 

C Do you have Usufruct-one that states you can live in the house till your death? This is important . With this in your possession -you can stay. The new owner will have to honour it.

 

Edit

 

I have just read your last post

ie No Will -but you have a usufruct

To my mind your circumstances are very simple

 

The Thai law is very specific in relation the distribution of assets where there is no will

 

It is as follows

1. descendants
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of full blood
4. brothers and sisters of half blood
5. grandparents
6. uncles and aunts
7. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

 

The way I read this is that her children will inherit all her assets. they will be divided up equally.

Given that your usufruct is based on your life -then you stay there.

Simple

 

 

Wrong, wrong wrong!!   You assume this incorrectly and shouldn't give such advice without being sure of facts!!!!! It's a very serious matter and the poster needs a lawyer urgently...

[Delight]

1 hour ago, tutsiwarrior said:

to complicate matters and FWIW the daughter is not my wife's biological daughter (my wife was her biological aunt)

 

 

 

 So the young lady is question (early referred to as your wife's daughter) is infact the niece of your wife. The thick plottens.

Nieces are not on the list

Parents come in Number 2

The mother in law will get it.

Suggest that you have a lawyer explain to the MIL what a usufruct is all about.

The mother of the niece(assuming that she is still alive )comes in at Number 6

Nieces /nephews -apparently - are not considered

The list that I earlier submitted came from a respected lawyer's web page

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Delight

[Delight]

32 minutes ago, Delight said:

 So the young lady is question (early referred to as your wife's daughter) is infact the niece of your wife. The thick plottens.

Nieces are not on the list

Parents come in Number 2

The mother in law will get it.

Suggest that you have a lawyer explain to the MIL what a usufruct is all about.

The mother of the niece(assuming that she is still alive )comes in at Number 6

Nieces /nephews -apparently - are not considered

The list that I earlier submitted came from a respected lawyer's web page

 

Correction

 

'The mother of the niece(assuming that she is still alive )comes in at Number 3.

[chilli42]

Lot of nonsense here.

 

its true you have no “ownership” rights.  You do have the right to assign who that title is transferred to (one year), you could be compensated for this.  From the info you have supplied, the daughter is next of kin so would by default inherit.  Your point about doing this before her marriage is important.  You would not want the fiancée of your step daughter having a right to this land on divorce.  It seems to me that it should be a simple matter to transfer the land title now to her (before the legal/government marriage date).  This can be done at the land office in a couple of hours.  That said you will need the right documents with you when you and your step daughter show up at the land office.  One final thought ... did your wife have a brother or sister ... might they be interested parties (be careful here)?  See a lawyer, get the necessary documents in order, do the transfer.

[melvinmelvin]

8 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

looks like I won't own the house but will be a 'custodian' until a new owner is found...but during that time I can sell the property if I want to a new owner...the property ownership will not pass to me during that time...

 

yeah, legal advice is available but there have been numerous reports of crooked thai lawyers and they ain't cheap...just wondering what other folks experiences have been before I seek legal assistance...

 

also don't know about transferring an usufruct as I thought that the usufructary's name remained on the chanote until he died with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto regardless of new owners...

 

 

 

if securing your right to continue to live in the house is not an issue

then I think that if you and your daughter visited the Land Office and you talked to the boss,

they would offer you advice and help facilitate transfer

 

(my experience with Land Offices is quite positive)

 

[BritManToo]

11 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

my wife died recently and from my understanding our house which is in her name shall belong to me for one year,

Sorry for your loss,

As for the house, I wouldn't finish probate and leave it in your wife's name indefinitely.

I believe Thailand has no limit on the time it takes for probate to finish.

 

As far as I know, inherited property is never considered 'community property' in Thailand.

Edited July 29, 2018 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

5 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

and I was asked by the courthouse lady to allow her to be the executor to which I agreed

oh dear.

You should have been executor.

[sometimewoodworker]

13 hours ago, ELVIS123456 said:

You do not now and will not ever own the house.  Get a lawyer - quickly.  You might soon have nowhere to live.  Dont talk to family members or anyone in the village - get a lawyer now. Take all the documents you have with you. At the very least you need a usufruct arrangement put in place with the new owner when the title is transferred - but do not discuss first - find out the details and how ASAP - then discuss things.

 

You are confusing the ownership of house and land. A foreigner can own the house. 

A foreiner can be the temporary owner of land in this one circumstance.

A foreigner can not have thier name on the title deed of a Chanote.

 

the OP is completely correct in that he has not more than 1 year to give or sell the land he now is the owner of with or without the house.

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

AFAIK the usufruct gives me a lifetime entitlement to live in the house ('control the property') but now my unease is increasing for other reasons...

Not quite correct. The Usufruct gives you a lifetime control of the land that the house is built on.

 

You certainly need a lawyer with regards to the land ownership as your wife died intestate (no will)

 

However under no circumstances agree to an change suggested to the Usufruct.

 

The land can be sold or transferred without any changes to that. If you are told that you need to terminate the Usufruct then the person telling you that is either lying, incompetent, or trying to cheat you

[Delight]

 There has been several references to a spouce inheriting   a property

My understanding is as follows:

In the extreme case that there are  no blood relatives -then the court will determine that the spouse will inherit.

If the spouse is a foreigner then the foreigner will inherit.

The foreigner must sell the land  within one year.

 

Does anybody have an alternative understanding?

 

 

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, Delight said:

If the spouse is a foreigner then the foreigner will inherit.

The foreigner must sell the land  within one year.

 

Does anybody have an alternative understanding?

That part is completely correct 

[sometimewoodworker]

Ignore my previous statement that you need a lawyer.

 

You probably don't. Though that is somewhat dependent on your trust and relationship to your mother-in-law

 

The full text

Quote

The statutory heirs of the same class shall be entitled to equal shares under the laws of Thailand. If there is only one heir in that class, he or she gets the whole portion. The share of the surviving spouse shall be in accordance with the following:

1) If the decedent left a spouse and children, the spouse is entitled to 50% of the estate and the children are entitled for the remaining 50% which shall be equally distributed among them.

2) If the decedent left his spouse and parents, the spouse is entitled to 50% and the parents to the other 50%;

3) If the decedent left his spouse and his brothers and sisters of full blood,  the spouse is entitled to 50% and the other 50% goes to his brothers and sisters;

4) If the decedent left his spouse and heirs in classes 4, 5, 6 (brothers and sisters of full blood, grandparents, uncles and aunts, then the spouse will inherit 2/3s of the estate and the remaining heirs will be entitled to the other 1/3 which will be divided in equal shares among them. The surviving spouse takes the whole estate in the absence of any other statutory heir.

Unfortunately you niece is not a daughter so by law does not get anything that you or your mother-in-law do not give her

Edited July 29, 2018 by sometimewoodworker

[tutsiwarrior]

15 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Ignore my previous statement that you need a lawyer.

 

You probably don't. Though that is somewhat dependent on your trust and relationship to your mother-in-law

 

The full text

Unfortunately you niece is not a daughter so by law does not get anything that you or your mother-in-law do not give her

so, in the event that my MiL and myself share the property 50 - 50% I would bequeath my 50% interest to the daughter to respect my wife's wishes...

 

if it's true that the MiL inherits 50% of the property then this alleviates my concern regarding the daughter's future husband attempting to get control in the event of a divorce...another question for a lawyer...

 

 

[Delight]

44 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

so, in the event that my MiL and myself share the property 50 - 50% I would bequeath my 50% interest to the daughter to respect my wife's wishes...

 

if it's true that the MiL inherits 50% of the property then this alleviates my concern regarding the daughter's future husband attempting to get control in the event of a divorce...another question for a lawyer...

 

 

Suspect that it might not be that simple

You will have to sell your 50% within a year of acquisition.

The only buyer will be the MIL-maybe

Suspect that gifting your half to the neice will make more sense.

If she acquires before marriage then the future husband has non claim

At this  point I do recommend a visit to a lawyer

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Delight
Spelling

[curtklay]

Tutsiwarrior : Aren't you glad you asked? Seeking accurate advice on TVF is an exercise in futility. You would be best advised to consult with a lawyer, although everything else that Elvis said is total nonsense.

Edited July 29, 2018 by curtklay

[ELVIS123456]

As someone said - I left the building yesterday ?

 

But I thought I would take another look inside today and saw some good advice and a lot of absolute rubbish.

I will ignore the personal insults, and I must remember to stay away from Cleveland.

 

My advice to the OP is the same as it was (although it should not have been so alarming) - get a lawyer.

 

There are so many things that could go wrong, that could have been done wrong, that it would be foolish to accept the advice of TV posters.

Some clearly have a better idea than I, and some have no idea, but none of us are lawyers in Thailand in that Province and experienced with this situation in that Lands Title Office.

There are a lot of additional potential complications, like a valid Will (or lack of it), and the good intentions of relatives (or lack of them), and so many others.

 

OP - I sauggest you read the following and you will then see how this situation in Thailand is not and cannot be so crystal clear as some would have you believe.

 

https://pugnatorius.com/usufruct/

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Usufructs.php

 

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/usufruct.html

 

This is a quote from one of those legal sites:  The following discussion of legal issues of a usufruct in Thailand results in significant aspects in legal conclusions which differ from calming and comforting statements made on the Internet in the last years. To avoid sleepless nights, foreign beneficiaries under a usufruct might decide to stop reading right now.

 

Get a lawyer.

 

Elvis has left the building (again) and he wont be back.

 

[jenny2017]

10 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

OK, now that changes my understanding of what's presently going on...if without a will the first beneficiaries are the descendants then what's going on at the courthouse now is the transfer of the property to the daughter...my understanding was different and it now looks like I need a lawyer urgently...

 

to complicate matters and FWIW the daughter is not my wife's biological daughter (my wife was her biological aunt) and my wife's name is not on the birth certificate...but she's looked after the girl from birth...my mother in law is alive and maybe the transfer is going to her...she was with us at the courthouse...and I was asked by the courthouse lady to allow her to be the executor to which I agreed as I thought that it was a matter of falangs not being able to be executors...something else that wasn't made clear...

 

AFAIK the usufruct gives me a lifetime entitlement to live in the house ('control the property') but now my unease is increasing for other reasons...

 

 

 

 

I can't give you any good advice other than seeing a good lawyer, specialized in such areas. My sincere condolences for your loss. Best of luck.

[BritManToo]

2 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You are confusing the ownership of house and land. A foreigner can own the house. 

A foreiner can be the temporary owner of land in this one circumstance.

A foreigner can not have thier name on the title deed of a Chanote.

 

the OP is completely correct in that he has not more than 1 year to give or sell the land he now is the owner of with or without the house.

Wrong on almost all points.

 

Foreigner can't own a house once house and land registered as a single entity.

Not actually happened in last 25 years, they refuse to sign the documents handing over the land to a foreigner.

With no will, 50% for the spouse, 50% divided between relatives

1 year rule was never enforced, anywhere, it's just a threat.

[topt]

10 hours ago, musiclover said:

I retained my house (after various serious hassles) and never had to sell it...

Can you elaborate please?

[Muhendis]

It's worth mentioning that if the property does not get transferred/sold to a Thai national within one year then the government will auction it and give you the proceeds which won't be very much.

[cardinalblue]

I know two cases in which the judge ruled in favor of the farang giving him the right to sell the house and the proceeds within one year....

 

yes he cannot own the title to the land but ownership was frozen allowing the potential transaction to take place...

 

if the house is not sold, then it goes to next of kin unless the Will spells out who the benefactor(s) are....

[tutsiwarrior]

I just had a sit down with the daughter to look at the documents and she said to her knowledge the adjudication at the court is being made on the basis of a 50/50 split between me and the MiL, with her (MiL) as the executor...the daughter doesn't have a birth certificate so that she's effectively disqualified as an inheritor with no will available, don't know how she managed to get an ID card and a DL...

 

what I'm now thinking of doing is scanning the available docs and send to a lawyer for review and if everything looks to be in order then I won't take it any further...I don't think that I have much to worry about re: the usufruct or the 'community property' issue...I'll need some clarification regarding the transfer of my share of the property to the daughter but I think that the land office folks may be able to help with that one...they were waiting until the probate court business was completed before taking any action on the issue as they normally would...

 

 

[rumak]

16 hours ago, tutsiwarrior said:

looks like I won't own the house but will be a 'custodian' until a new owner is found...but during that time I can sell the property if I want to a new owner...the property ownership will not pass to me during that time...

 

yeah, legal advice is available but there have been numerous reports of crooked thai lawyers and they ain't cheap...just wondering what other folks experiences have been before I seek legal assistance...

 

also don't know about transferring an usufruct as I thought that the usufructary's name remained on the chanote until he died with all rights and privileges pertaining thereto regardless of new owners...

 

 

Do you know what is on the back of the chanote ?   is there a "sitti gep gin" (usufruct) typed in with your name?

Mine does and states it is for my lifetime.   If something were to happen (owner of property dies) I could still live there, but do believe there is a time period (1 year) within which time I could sell it.  Note: do not sell the land/house to your daughter as then you would have to pay more tax.  Gift it !   Still some tax to be paid but not as much.      NOW my advice:  get a thai person who you trust and hopefully can translate for you (daughter?).  Go to the LAND OFFICE and ask to speak to the  head man/woman (hua nah). I have done this in CM and also another district.  Ask them (have friend ask unless your thai is very good) how to go about giving the property to your daughter.  Be polite..and be sure to talk directly to the hua nah.

What anyone else there says carries no weight.

Lawyers will also tell you all kinds of things.....as will some misinformed folks here.  The best person to trust is the man at the Land Office.   They can tell you exactly what you need (death cert/  marriage cert/ will if any/  etc.    Write it all down !

[rumak]

35 minutes ago, tutsiwarrior said:

I just had a sit down with the daughter to look at the documents and she said to her knowledge the adjudication at the court is being made on the basis of a 50/50 split between me and the MiL, with her (MiL) as the executor...the daughter doesn't have a birth certificate so that she's effectively disqualified as an inheritor with no will available, don't know how she managed to get an ID card and a DL...

 

what I'm now thinking of doing is scanning the available docs and send to a lawyer for review and if everything looks to be in order then I won't take it any further...I don't think that I have much to worry about re: the usufruct or the 'community property' issue...I'll need some clarification regarding the transfer of my share of the property to the daughter but I think that the land office folks may be able to help with that one...they were waiting until the probate court business was completed before taking any action on the issue as they normally would...

 

 

When things are not straight forward ((no will....no birth certificate...whatever ) then be prepared to do

a lot of work trying to sort it all out.  Hope you have access to a competent and honest lawyer  ?

[melvinmelvin]

11 minutes ago, rumak said:

Do you know what is on the back of the chanote ?   is there a "sitti gep gin" (usufruct) typed in with your name?

Mine does and states it is for my lifetime.   If something were to happen (owner of property dies) I could still live there, but do believe there is a time period (1 year) within which time I could sell it.  Note: do not sell the land/house to your daughter as then you would have to pay more tax.  Gift it !   Still some tax to be paid but not as much.      NOW my advice:  get a thai person who you trust and hopefully can translate for you (daughter?).  Go to the LAND OFFICE and ask to speak to the  head man/woman (hua nah). I have done this in CM and also another district.  Ask them (have friend ask unless your thai is very good) how to go about giving the property to your daughter.  Be polite..and be sure to talk directly to the hua nah.

What anyone else there says carries no weight.

Lawyers will also tell you all kinds of things.....as will some misinformed folks here.  The best person to trust is the man at the Land Office.   They can tell you exactly what you need (death cert/  marriage cert/ will if any/  etc.    Write it all down !

 

 

1) to the OP: you may own house and be the custodian of the ground

2) agree with what rumak says, I said the same once before further up,

    get chanot and relevant papers and daughter and visit the LandOffice, ask for advice and what to do in order to achieve what you want

    in my experience, LandOffice officers are fairly helpful

 

[melvinmelvin]

56 minutes ago, Muhendis said:

It's worth mentioning that if the property does not get transferred/sold to a Thai national within one year then the government will auction it and give you the proceeds which won't be very much.

 

it doesn't always go down that route, the courts are fairly free to rule as they fancy

 

1) north American friend in Ranong province,

    married to Thai lass, former BG, mega house - costly

    of course, the house built after marriage with his money in her name

    she just couldn't stop screwing around - after some years he wanted a divorce

    she was happy to divorce but wanted house and land - disagreement - court case

    the court ruled; American chap could use land and house as his own as long as he lived, but not sell

 

2) north American chap in ChonBuri province,

     wife and offspring perished in an accident, had estates in wife's name

    wife's family got flashing dollar signs in their eyes since farang couldn't own land (and house in their view)

     plenty disagreement - court case

    court: farang could use land/house as his own for life, but not sell

 

[orchidfan]

Slightly off topic..but apart from the house and contents..what happens to a farang 's "Permission to stay based on marriage " if one 's Thai wife passes away?