I just finished a 48 hour intermittent fast (IF)

[villagefarang]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

Fair enough; everybody is entitled to their own opinion.  I appreciate the non-confrontational way you put it.  You can always block me if what I say offends you or distracts you from the rest of the thread.

I have never blocked any other members, even during the dark days when a group of guys was trying to get me kicked off the forum.  I don't think it is inappropriate for someone to step in occasionally and point out that not everyone's focus is the same or when someone is a bit heavy-handed in their putdowns of those who disagree.  I don't really care what you believe or what you do with your own life but the evangelical approach to pushing an idea affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, villagefarang said:

I have never blocked any other members, even during the dark days when a group of guys was trying to get me kicked off the forum.  I don't think it is inappropriate for someone to step in occasionally and point out that not everyone's focus is the same or when someone is a bit heavy-handed in their putdowns of those who disagree.  I don't really care what you believe or what you do with your own life but the evangelical approach to pushing an idea affects me like fingernails on a chalkboard.

OK, good point.  I know I come off as an evangelist sometimes but really it’s not my intention.  I’m passionate about my views, and just get carried away sometimes.  

 

I appreciate the criticism from people like you because it helps me realize I should mellow out, and because the way you say it isn’t meant to be mean-spirited or antagonistic.

 

Just to be clear, I’m not trying to tell others how to live their lives or how to eat; only that they should consider the unfolding underlying science that’s now being explored in regard to nutrition.

 

I’m not talking about a new diet fad or guru-speak.  I’m talking about legitimate lab-based science that has far reaching implications for improving the quality of life for everyone, not just  the sick. 

 

Very little of it is proven yet to be sure.  Much of the current research will probably be mis-proven, but some of it has already been game-changing, and will continue to be more so as time goes on.

 

Like I said before, it wasn’t that long ago that smoking cigarettes was not considered to be unhealthy, if done in moderation!  Very few people feel that way today.

Edited May 29, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

"people generally care far less about metabolic health and the underlying science than you believe they do.  Even knowing the science doesn't mean most people have the ability or desire to change."

Sadly true. I know many people who are unhealthy, some are diabetic. Not one of them is interested in why they got that way, neither are they interested in changing their lifestyle to improve their health. "I don't want to stop eating what I enjoy, I want to enjoy my life", as they become inevitably sicker and less active.

Sad but true.  Some people resign to what they believe is their fate, and even sadder, their own doctors who they put their faith in are the reason why.  

 

When I was diagnosed as pre-diabetic, my doctor basically told me that Diabetes was a chronic illness with no cure and that I should simply “learn to live with it”.  It’s no wonder many people just accept that.  

 

I did not, and nobody should if they really relish being alive and happy.  I’m healthy and happy now because I took the initiative and changed my fate.

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

15 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

"people generally care far less about metabolic health and the underlying science than you believe they do.  Even knowing the science doesn't mean most people have the ability or desire to change."

Sadly true. I know many people who are unhealthy, some are diabetic. Not one of them is interested in why they got that way, neither are they interested in changing their lifestyle to improve their health. "I don't want to stop eating what I enjoy, I want to enjoy my life", as they become inevitably sicker and less active.

I know this for a fact, my brother is now diabetic, but he still does not want to change his lifestyle too much. He still has the first form the less bad one but it can get worse. His wife is trying all she can to change him but its hard. I tried it does not work. He just loves eating and his lifestyle. He however does not realise that if he goes down this road it will only get worse. 

 

To be honest I think he understands but is to hard for some people (him included) to change he takes great pleasure in food and his beer. I am sad that I can't convince him, the doctor in the Netherlands can't convince him. Doctors in the Netherlands do give diet advice for people like him not only pop pills. 

 

I tried to convince him, normally I let people be but he is my brother. He is now aware more but still he does not change too much. In his eyes he changed a lot of course. But i just told him and we ended up fighting (verbally). I told him I had to tell him and he could be angry with me but I would not forgive myself if I had not said it to him even if he did not want to hear. So we made up he understood it was not about me trying to control him but to help him. This was during a holiday in Thailand together last year so I could see his eating habits. 

 

I think i eat less carbs then him and eat a lot healthier and I don't have his problem. But I told him what I thought and let him decide what to do with it. Now its up to him and I know i said my thing so I will never have to regret not saying anything. 

 

You can't force people to change and should not, but i feel if they are close friends you have to give it a shot at telling what can happen just once to have a clear conscience. 

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

I know this for a fact, my brother is now diabetic, but he still does not want to change his lifestyle too much. He still has the first form the less bad one but it can get worse. His wife is trying all she can to change him but its hard. I tried it does not work. He just loves eating and his lifestyle. He however does not realise that if he goes down this road it will only get worse. 

 

To be honest I think he understands but is to hard for some people (him included) to change he takes great pleasure in food and his beer. I am sad that I can't convince him, the doctor in the Netherlands can't convince him. Doctors in the Netherlands do give diet advice for people like him not only pop pills. 

 

I tried to convince him, normally I let people be but he is my brother. He is now aware more but still he does not change too much. In his eyes he changed a lot of course. But i just told him and we ended up fighting (verbally). I told him I had to tell him and he could be angry with me but I would not forgive myself if I had not said it to him even if he did not want to hear. So we made up he understood it was not about me trying to control him but to help him. This was during a holiday in Thailand together last year so I could see his eating habits. 

 

I think i eat less carbs then him and eat a lot healthier and I don't have his problem. But I told him what I thought and let him decide what to do with it. Now its up to him and I know i said my thing so I will never have to regret not saying anything. 

 

You can't force people to change and should not, but i feel if they are close friends you have to give it a shot at telling what can happen just once to have a clear conscience. 

I agree with everything you said.  And I agree that there should be no need for people to even be concerned about the scientific details I discuss.  

 

Manufactured foods are a necessity in our modern world since population far exceeds available supply of natural foods, so most people have no choice but to rely on processed foods.  It’s simply an economic realty for most people.

 

In an ideal society it should be the job of food producers and government organizations that oversee them to ensure that processed foods are healthy for us.

 

Sadly though, that’s not the case.  Food producers are commercial entities and their responsibility is to their shareholders, and the bottom line is to produce profit above all else.

 

Like any successful commercial enterprise, they look for ways to cut costs and increase demand as much as possible, and to be as unregulated in these pursuit as they can make it through powerful government lobbying efforts.

 

In in the case of food producers this has led to the use of high fructose corn syrup in almost every manufactured food product they make because it is incredibly cheap.  It’s led to additives that actually cause people to over consume their products in order to increase demand.  And it’s led to powerful lobbying efforts towards the government organizations that are supposed to oversee them, and protect the public.

 

This isn’t surprising.  The tobacco industry did the same thing and was successful at it for years, until congressional hearings in the USA exposed them.  The food industry is no different.

 

Its all led to the current situation where organization that are supposed to inform the public and protect their health such as the American Diabetes Association are presenting biased messages about the nutritional basis of the disease and claiming that Diabetes-2 is “a chronic disease that you must learn to live with”, because to do otherwise would indict the practices of the food industry, and specifically the dangers of their principle ingredient which is high fructose corn syrup.

 

Most family doctors are no less culpable.  Few receive adequate education in nutrition in medical school, and then in practice only follow the guidelines of ADA when it comes to Diabetes.  Very few take a pro-active stance in helping their patients prevent the disease through proper nutrition.

 

So, what other option does a person have if they value their health other to be self-informed and take action on their own?

 

This is why I take an interest in understanding the underlying science of nutrition, and why I think anyone who values their health should as well.  

 

I’m not preaching for people to adopt specific diets or avoid carbs and sugar entirely.  I’m just saying that a person should be aware of  the REAL underlying science of nutrition, and the practices of the food industry, and then make informed choices based on that understanding.  

 

It’s not such a big price to pay if it keeps you healthy and happy, and allows you to stay that way into old age.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

I agree with everything you said.  And I agree that there should be no need for people to even be concerned about the scientific details I discuss.  

 

Manufactured foods are a necessity in our modern world since population far exceeds available supply of natural foods, so most people have no choice but to rely on processed foods.  It’s simply an economic realty for most people.

 

In an ideal society it should be the job of food producers and government organizations that oversee them to ensure that processed foods are healthy for us.

 

Sadly though, that’s not the case.  Food producers are commercial entities and their responsibility is to their shareholders, and the bottom line is to produce profit above all else.

 

Like any successful commercial enterprise, they look for ways to cut costs and increase demand as much as possible, and to be as unregulated in these pursuit as they can make it through powerful government lobbying efforts.

 

In in the case of food producers this has led to the use of high fructose corn syrup in almost every manufactured food product they make because it is incredibly cheap.  It’s led to additives that actually cause people to over consume their products in order to increase demand.  And it’s led to powerful lobbying efforts towards the government organizations that are supposed to oversee them, and protect the public.

 

This isn’t surprising.  The tobacco industry did the same thing and was successful at it for years, until congressional hearings in the USA exposed them.  The food industry is no different.

 

Its all led to the current situation where organization that are supposed to inform the public and protect their health such as the American Diabetes Association are presenting biased messages about the nutritional basis of the disease and claiming that Diabetes-2 is “a chronic disease that you must learn to live with”, because to do otherwise would indict the practices of the food industry, and specifically the dangers of their principle ingredient which is high fructose corn syrup.

 

Most family doctors are no less culpable.  Few receive adequate education in nutrition in medical school, and then in practice only follow the guidelines of ADA when it comes to Diabetes.  Very few take a pro-active stance in helping their patients prevent the disease through proper nutrition.

 

So, what other option does a person have if they value their health other to be self-informed and take action on their own?

 

This is why I take an interest in understanding the underlying science of nutrition, and why I think anyone who values their health should as well.  

 

I’m not preaching for people to adopt specific diets or avoid carbs and sugar entirely.  I’m just saying that a person should be aware of  the REAL underlying science of nutrition, and the practices of the food industry, and then make informed choices based on that understanding.  

 

It’s not such a big price to pay if it keeps you healthy and happy, and allows you to stay that way into old age.

 

Partly agree with you.. you put the full blame on the food industry. I don't why can you change yourself, why can I do it.. why can others do it ? There is some own responsibility too. My brother for instance knows some things are bad but he still does them. Its a choice and we are not mindless puppets of the food industry. 

 

I told you before if it was up to me i would eat fast food every day (if it was not damaging for me). However I know its bad but i still like its tast but I abstain (for the most part). 

 

Most people know they need to exercise a certain amount of times per day many don't... where is the own responsibility ? If i ride my motorbike i know its dangerous but its a choice i make. 

 

I just don't agree with absolving people from their responsibilities sure the food industry isnt helping but in the end people make choices and have responsibility too. 

 

I was never one to blame others too much.

[WaveHunter]

21 minutes ago, robblok said:

Partly agree with you.. you put the full blame on the food industry. I don't why can you change yourself, why can I do it.. why can others do it ? There is some own responsibility too. My brother for instance knows some things are bad but he still does them. Its a choice and we are not mindless puppets of the food industry. 

 

I told you before if it was up to me i would eat fast food every day (if it was not damaging for me). However I know its bad but i still like its tast but I abstain (for the most part). 

 

Most people know they need to exercise a certain amount of times per day many don't... where is the own responsibility ? If i ride my motorbike i know its dangerous but its a choice i make. 

 

I just don't agree with absolving people from their responsibilities sure the food industry isnt helping but in the end people make choices and have responsibility too. 

 

I was never one to blame others too much.

My point was simply that, unlike you and I, many people can not afford to avoid processed food due to costs.  They are forced to eat processed foods whether they wish to or not.  Furthermore, the average person is not going to read nutritional labels, and even if they do, the information is intentionally misleading, especially with regard to sugar content (i.e.: many sugars are not even listed in nutritional breakdown, and are only listed in the ingredients list.).

 

People should not have to be sophisticated detectives to determine whether the food they eat contains unhealthy levels of sugar, yet they must be if they are concerned about getting unhealthy doses of sugar in their diet.

 

Yes, I blame the food industry and the government for allowing such deception.  I blame health organizations like the American Diabetes Association for falling victim to the powerful lobby efforts of the food industry, and I blame scientists who perform biased research that's sponsored by the food industry.

 

Therefore the only option concerned people have is to become self-informed and pro-active to protect their health.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone has the time or inclination to do so, nor do many people have the financial resources to "eat healthy". 

 

Should that be the fault of the individual or the fault of food producers, government agencies designed to oversee them and the organizations like ADA that exist to protect and promote health.  I say the latter.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

My point was simply that, unlike you and I, many people can not afford to avoid processed food due to costs.  They are forced to eat processed foods whether they wish to or not.  Furthermore, the average person is not going to read nutritional labels, and even if they do, the information is intentionally misleading, especially with regard to sugar content.

 

People should not have to be sophisticated detectives to determine whether the food they eat contains unhealthy levels of sugar, yet they must be if they are concerned about getting unhealthy doses of sugar in their diet.

 

Yes, I blame the food industry and the government for allowing such deception.  I blame health organizations like the American Diabetes Association for falling victim to the powerful lobby efforts of the food industry. 

 

Therefore the only option concerned people have is to become self-informed and pro-active to protect their health.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone has the time or inclination to do so, nor do many people have the financial resources to avoid processed foods. 

 

Should that be the fault of the individual or the fault of food producers, government agencies designed to oversee them and the organizations like ADA that exist to protect and promote health.  I say the latter.

 

Your too much an American my friend.. you make blanket statements. Back in the Netherlands and large parts of Europe its still cheap to cook for yourself. Its not like in the US where restaurants are cheap and portions are huge. Please next time think about the rest of the world too.

 

In my country people can still buy fresh vegetables and cook themselves they don't have to eat processed foods. Its more of a choice where I come from then being condemned to it. 

[WaveHunter]

9 minutes ago, robblok said:

Your too much an American my friend.. you make blanket statements. Back in the Netherlands and large parts of Europe its still cheap to cook for yourself. Its not like in the US where restaurants are cheap and portions are huge. Please next time think about the rest of the world too.

 

In my country people can still buy fresh vegetables and cook themselves they don't have to eat processed foods. Its more of a choice where I come from then being condemned to it. 

Well, actually I am thinking on a global scale more than you give me credit for.  I see the same trend here in Thailand, as it becomes influenced more and more by American processed food and fast food.  7-Eleven, McDonalds, and especially Kentucky Fried Chicken, for example, have become hugely popular for Thai people.  I remember last year when those kids were trapped in the underground caves; when they were finally rescued and one of the kids was asked what he wanted to eat after not having anything to eat for all that time, said, all he wasted was to go to KFC!

 

Sure, anybody can find fresh natural foods to eat, but processed ones are remarkably cheaper and easier to make, and they are designed to be more satisfying in terms of taste.  Many will pick processed over natural on this basis, and the food industry is well aware of this.

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Well, actually I am thinking on a global scale more than you give me credit for.  I see the same trend here in Thailand, as it becomes influenced more and more by American processed food and fast food.  7-Eleven, McDonalds, and especially Kentucky Fried Chicken, for example, have become hugely popular to Thai people.  I remember last year when those kids were trapped in the underground caves; when they were finally rescued and one of the kids was asked what he wanted to eat after not having anything to eat for all that time, said, all he wasted was to go to KFC!

Obviously your killing your own argument here by including Thailand.. first you state people are forced to eat processed foods because of poverty. Then you take Thailand as an example where Mc Donalds and KFC are quite expensive for the average Thai and there is better food available for less.

 

Plus I told you about the West (not US) where you are also not forced to eat the processed food just like in Thailand its a choice and in Thailand its an expensive CHOICE. 

 

Not forced upon anyone except in the US.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by robblok

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Obviously your killing your own argument here by including Thailand.. first you state people are forced to eat processed foods because of poverty. Then you take Thailand as an example where Mc Donalds and KFC are quite expensive for the average Thai and there is better food available for less.

 

Plus I told you about the West (not US) where you are also not forced to eat the processed food just like in Thailand its a choice and in Thailand its an expensive CHOICE. 

 

Not forced upon anyone except in the US.

 

I'm not killing my argument at all.  I said that convenience foods are BOTH cheaper in the United States AND designed to be over-consumed.  Those are two exclusive but connected reasons.

 

Why do you ignore one of my reasons and only focus on the other?  That's referred to as a "half truth". 

 

If anything, the fact that they are more expensive than indigenous Thai foods. only reinforces my argument because  even though the average Thai can often ill afford a trip to McDonalds or KFC, they do it anyway, and they do it frequently!

 

Obesity is definitely on the rise in the Thai population.  Perhaps this is a contributing factor??  What do you think?  The same thing has happened in China with regard to the rise in consumption of US fast foods, and guess what?  Obesity is on the rise there too since the time western fast foods started becoming popular there. 

 

Is it all just a coincidence?  Personally, I don't think so.

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

38 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I'm not killing my argument at all.  I said that convenience foods are BOTH cheaper in the United States AND designed to be over-consumed.  Those are two exclusive but connected reasons.

 

Why do you ignore one of my reasons and only focus on the other?  That's referred to as a "half truth". 

 

If anything, the fact that they are more expensive than indigenous Thai foods. only reinforces my argument because  even though the average Thai can often ill afford a trip to McDonalds or KFC, they do it anyway, and they do it frequently!

 

Obesity is definitely on the rise in the Thai population.  Perhaps this is a contributing factor??  What do you think?  The same thing has happened in China with regard to the rise in consumption of US fast foods, and guess what?  Obesity is on the rise there too since the time western fast foods started becoming popular there. 

 

Is it all just a coincidence?  Personally, I don't think so.

Yes in the US they are both cheaper and designed to be over consumed. However in big parts of the rest of the world that is not the case. So there its a choice (its not a choice when your forced from poverty to buy something). 

 

Of course its a contributing factor but so are all the Thai bad foods too. My point was more that in the US you can make your point that its force up on people while here and in other parts of the world its NOT cheaper and its a choice people make.

 

I just don't like it when people act like we are mindless drones who have no say in things. Sure blame the food industry but people who consume it (if not forced by poverty) have to take part of the blame too.

 

I know what is healthy and what is not if I still eat Mc Donalds is it then fair to blame them even though I know its bad and willingly eat it ? (sure Mc Donalds made it nice so part to blame too) 

 

Maybe I just feel that people are not mindless drones and have some blame too. That is my point. For the rest I agree that the food industry is to blame too.. just not totally.

 

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Yes in the US they are both cheaper and designed to be over consumed. However in big parts of the rest of the world that is not the case. So there its a choice (its not a choice when your forced from poverty to buy something). 

 

Of course its a contributing factor but so are all the Thai bad foods too. My point was more that in the US you can make your point that its force up on people while here and in other parts of the world its NOT cheaper and its a choice people make.

 

I just don't like it when people act like we are mindless drones who have no say in things. Sure blame the food industry but people who consume it (if not forced by poverty) have to take part of the blame too.

 

I know what is healthy and what is not if I still eat Mc Donalds is it then fair to blame them even though I know its bad and willingly eat it ? (sure Mc Donalds made it nice so part to blame too) 

 

Maybe I just feel that people are not mindless drones and have some blame too. That is my point. For the rest I agree that the food industry is to blame too.. just not totally.

 

 

I said there are MULTIPLE reasons that people will tend to eat processed foods over natural foods, and I'm not just talking about "fun" processed foods like McDonalds or KFC.  I'm talking about everyday supermarket foods that you're just as likely to find in Europe or any other developed country in the world, not just in the USA.

 

You say people have a choice on whether to eat healthy or not.  I disagree.  It's a matter of supply and demand.  With growing populations in all developed countries of the world, there is no longer an adequate supply of natural foods to feed everyone.  Processed foods must fill the gap, and to make them profitable to the producers and affordable enough for the buyer, things like HFCS and additives which are not only very cheap but also tend to encourage over-consumption are heavily used.

 

Sure, if you have sufficient disposable income to pay a premium for natural foods and thus enjoy the luxury of avoiding processed foods, then yes you have a choice.  If you don't have that kind of income then you will be far more reliant on processed foods.  That is true ANYWHERE in the developed world.

 

Economics is only one reason though.  Convenience of preparation is another.  Many people work long hours and don't have the time or energy at the end of a long day to prepare a healthy meal when all they have to do is pop something in the microwave.  You might be inclined to criticize such people and say "that's their choice" but that would be incredibly unfair to say to family where both parents must work full-time jobs and then come home to feed their family of five.

 

The fact that processed foods are intentionally designed to taste unusually tasty and to fool the satiety centers of the brain that leads to over-consumption is still still another and most compelling reason.  So, you have a country like Thailand, where the typical Thai can ill afford a trip to McDonalds or KFC, but they do it anyway, and they do it repeatedly.  Is that necessarily their fault or is it the fault of the food producer who does everything possible to make the food practically addictive?

 

You say people can easily eat healthy if they really want to.  I say many can not and it's not all their fault, not even close.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[VincentRJ]

2 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Sure, if you have sufficient disposable income to pay a premium for natural foods and thus enjoy the luxury of avoiding processed foods, then yes you have a choice.  If you don't have that kind of income then you will be far more reliant on processed foods.  That is true ANYWHERE in the developed world.

 

It's certainly not true in Australia. Organically grown food is always expensive, but normal fruit and vegetables, free-range eggs, sardines in spring water, full cream milk, wholemeal flour, whole grain rice, and so on, are remarkably inexpensive.

 

Converting prices to US dollars, following is a list of prices of just a few products in supermarkets in my own location.
(1) 2 liters of Full Cream milk - $1.54
(2) 1 KG of Cavendish bananas - $0.70 to $2 depending on season of the year.
(3) 1 KG of fresh Broccoli - $1.50 to $4 depending on season of the year.
(4) 2 KG of wholemeal flour - as low as $1.40 at Woolworths.
(5) A dozen free-range eggs as low as $3.80.
(6) A whole barbecued chicken for as low as $6.50

 

If people are on a low salary and are struggling to meet expenses, then it's only sensible that they should shop around for whatever types of wholesome food are in season and have a low price.
Preparing one's own food at home can be very cheap and not particularly time-consuming, especially if one has a microwave oven.

[WaveHunter]

53 minutes ago, VincentRJ said:

It's certainly not true in Australia. Organically grown food is always expensive, but normal fruit and vegetables, free-range eggs, sardines in spring water, full cream milk, wholemeal flour, whole grain rice, and so on, are remarkably inexpensive.

 

Converting prices to US dollars, following is a list of prices of just a few products in supermarkets in my own location.
(1) 2 liters of Full Cream milk - $1.54
(2) 1 KG of Cavendish bananas - $0.70 to $2 depending on season of the year.
(3) 1 KG of fresh Broccoli - $1.50 to $4 depending on season of the year.
(4) 2 KG of wholemeal flour - as low as $1.40 at Woolworths.
(5) A dozen free-range eggs as low as $3.80.
(6) A whole barbecued chicken for as low as $6.50

 

If people are on a low salary and are struggling to meet expenses, then it's only sensible that they should shop around for whatever types of wholesome food are in season and have a low price.
Preparing one's own food at home can be very cheap and not particularly time-consuming, especially if one has a microwave oven.

So, are you saying that supermarkets in Australia do not heavily stock processed foods and the general population doesn't heavily use them? 

 

I'm not saying that some people are health conscious in Australia and take advantage of low cost healthy foods.  The same is true in the United States.  I am talking about the nutritional practices of a country's mainstream population.

 

I am aware that consumption of processed foods is lower in Australia than in the USA, but it is still seriously high and many of those products have been acknowledged to be overly consumed by the population and potentially hazardous to health by many Australian health authorities and scientists.

 

Maybe you can convince me otherwise but right now I find that very hard to believe that processed foods are not heavily relied upon in Australia, especially when I see reports in scientific journals like this one:

 

Ultra-processed family foods in Australia: nutrition claims, health claims and marketing techniques

 

or in mainstream articles like this one:

Australia's supermarket shelves full of highly processed and highly unhealthy foods

 

I'm only stating my own opinion but it's based on objective, unbiased, and reliable data.

 

If you disagree, please tell me why.  I don't mean this in a confrontation way; I'm seriously interested to hear opposing views on this.

Edited May 30, 2019 by WaveHunter

[VincentRJ]

4 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

So, are you saying that supermarkets in Australia do not heavily stock processed foods and the general population doesn't heavily use them? 

 

No, of course not. I'm saying that people always have a choice, even if they are relatively poor. If they prefer processed foods it's because they are either not concerned about their health, or are just lazy or ignorant.

 

Consider a poor country like Nepal. I've been there several times and I'm rather puzzled why it's impossible to get served whole grain rice in any hotel or restaurant. Why does such a poor country insist on removing nutrients from such a main food source as rice, even in the countryside where lifestyles are so very basic.

[robblok]

12 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

It's certainly not true in Australia. Organically grown food is always expensive, but normal fruit and vegetables, free-range eggs, sardines in spring water, full cream milk, wholemeal flour, whole grain rice, and so on, are remarkably inexpensive.

 

Converting prices to US dollars, following is a list of prices of just a few products in supermarkets in my own location.
(1) 2 liters of Full Cream milk - $1.54
(2) 1 KG of Cavendish bananas - $0.70 to $2 depending on season of the year.
(3) 1 KG of fresh Broccoli - $1.50 to $4 depending on season of the year.
(4) 2 KG of wholemeal flour - as low as $1.40 at Woolworths.
(5) A dozen free-range eggs as low as $3.80.
(6) A whole barbecued chicken for as low as $6.50

 

If people are on a low salary and are struggling to meet expenses, then it's only sensible that they should shop around for whatever types of wholesome food are in season and have a low price.
Preparing one's own food at home can be very cheap and not particularly time-consuming, especially if one has a microwave oven.

Dutch prices are that or lower plenty of fresh vegetables available. 

 

No need to go all processed foods, my brother his wife cooks all his stuff and it is cheaper then the processed stuff. 

 

Yes processed stuff is stocked too but it is not cheaper and it is used of course but far less as in the US.

Wavehunter you are really too american orientated, I understand that but you just can't compare the countries. Its far worse in the US and in the EU there are far more regulations. 

 

I know you like to make your point and blame everything on the food industry but people are just as responsible.

 

Friends of my dad for instance prefer to pop tablets instead of doing anything about their health themselves. But that is not because its not available but because of a mindset. My dad combats his disease with (heart attack) with biking a lot and eating (a little bit) healthier.

 

Its a choice and you will have to accept that and not blame the food industry 100% because that just is not the truth. Maybe its the American way  but it certainly is not universal.

 

You do realise that also on food you prepare yourself you can get fat ?

[robblok]

15 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

I said there are MULTIPLE reasons that people will tend to eat processed foods over natural foods, and I'm not just talking about "fun" processed foods like McDonalds or KFC.  I'm talking about everyday supermarket foods that you're just as likely to find in Europe or any other developed country in the world, not just in the USA.

 

You say people have a choice on whether to eat healthy or not.  I disagree.  It's a matter of supply and demand.  With growing populations in all developed countries of the world, there is no longer an adequate supply of natural foods to feed everyone.  Processed foods must fill the gap, and to make them profitable to the producers and affordable enough for the buyer, things like HFCS and additives which are not only very cheap but also tend to encourage over-consumption are heavily used.

 

Sure, if you have sufficient disposable income to pay a premium for natural foods and thus enjoy the luxury of avoiding processed foods, then yes you have a choice.  If you don't have that kind of income then you will be far more reliant on processed foods.  That is true ANYWHERE in the developed world.

 

Economics is only one reason though.  Convenience of preparation is another.  Many people work long hours and don't have the time or energy at the end of a long day to prepare a healthy meal when all they have to do is pop something in the microwave.  You might be inclined to criticize such people and say "that's their choice" but that would be incredibly unfair to say to family where both parents must work full-time jobs and then come home to feed their family of five.

 

The fact that processed foods are intentionally designed to taste unusually tasty and to fool the satiety centers of the brain that leads to over-consumption is still still another and most compelling reason.  So, you have a country like Thailand, where the typical Thai can ill afford a trip to McDonalds or KFC, but they do it anyway, and they do it repeatedly.  Is that necessarily their fault or is it the fault of the food producer who does everything possible to make the food practically addictive?

 

You say people can easily eat healthy if they really want to.  I say many can not and it's not all their fault, not even close.

 

Lets agree to disagree.. you got an American mindset, I dont. I seen how it is different in the EU especially the Netherlands. In the other post both Vincent RJ and me show you that fruits and vegetables are affordable. 

 

Sure there is processed crap but it certainly is not always cheaper, its a choice nothing more nothing less. 

 

I remember Dutch healthy microwave meals with vegetables and other stuff in them. So again it depends what you buy. In the US rules are different then in "nanny state" EU. The US is seen as a bad example and things have been done to make it less worse in the EU. 

 

Every traveler I have ever spoken to who went to the US is always talking about the insane cheap food and huge portions. That is kinda telling so please stop comparing US with a place you never lived in. 

 

As for having no time... take some frozen vegetables .. put them in a steamer. Put a bit of meat in a pan and fry it and make some rice or patatoes. NO more time then 20 minutes is spend on it and most of it is waiting. I lived alone for quite some time in the Netherlands.  I cooked there I left home 7am and came back 7pm and i still could cook healthy food. You can even prepare things in bulk freeze them and eat when needed.

 

Choices my dear friend the choice is there its not just the food industry.

Edited May 31, 2019 by robblok

[Lacessit]

I'm quite surprised the OP is still with us, given he has been just finishing these fasts for nearly nine months now.

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Dutch prices are that or lower plenty of fresh vegetables available. 

 

No need to go all processed foods, my brother his wife cooks all his stuff and it is cheaper then the processed stuff. 

 

Yes processed stuff is stocked too but it is not cheaper and it is used of course but far less as in the US.

Wavehunter you are really too american orientated, I understand that but you just can't compare the countries. Its far worse in the US and in the EU there are far more regulations. 

 

I know you like to make your point and blame everything on the food industry but people are just as responsible.

 

Friends of my dad for instance prefer to pop tablets instead of doing anything about their health themselves. But that is not because its not available but because of a mindset. My dad combats his disease with (heart attack) with biking a lot and eating (a little bit) healthier.

 

Its a choice and you will have to accept that and not blame the food industry 100% because that just is not the truth. Maybe its the American way  but it certainly is not universal.

 

You do realise that also on food you prepare yourself you can get fat ?

FYI, I’m a photojournalist therefore I travel extensively.  I’ve visited 26 countries so it’s nonsense for you to say I only understand how things are in America and have no understanding of other countries.

 

You consistently view things subjectively, based on your own experience, and just as consistently reject objective views of the real world.

 

You say that you made a choice to avoid processed foods, and therefore anyone else who doesn’t must be lazy or ignorant.  You seem to say that only Americans have a serious obesity problem that’s connected to processed foods, when in fact it’s an acknowledged world wide issue, that any basic google search by an open-minded person will reveal.

 

How can you deny the simple law of supply and demand?  There are more people in the world than there is natural food to feed them.  Processed food is therefore essential.  Without it there would be famine!

 

I backed up what I said about Australia with a couple random objectives sources of information to support my view.  Why haven’t you guys commented on them?  

 

You consistently try and make my views seem extreme whether it’s about carbs, sugar, or the global prevalence and problems of processed foods when all I’m making are OBJECTIVE observations of facts.

 

If you want to fiercely defend your views, based only on your own subjective experiences, and ignore objective facts of the world around us, then we’re not intelligently debating; we’re merely engaged in a pissing match, which is pretty unproductive.

 

That appears to be the case because I can’t think of one single point I’ve made where you don’t smugly tell me I’m wrong.  It seem more important for you to “win” an argument than to really explore a controversial issue and find truth.  To me, that’s what debating is about.

 

If that’s the case, let’s get back on track.  If you’re only interested in winning this pissing match, OK, fine.  Have it your way.  I’ve got better things to do than continue playing this silly game.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

14 hours ago, VincentRJ said:

No, of course not. I'm saying that people always have a choice, even if they are relatively poor. If they prefer processed foods it's because they are either not concerned about their health, or are just lazy or ignorant.

 

Consider a poor country like Nepal. I've been there several times and I'm rather puzzled why it's impossible to get served whole grain rice in any hotel or restaurant. Why does such a poor country insist on removing nutrients from such a main food source as rice, even in the countryside where lifestyles are so very basic.

So you responded only to my opening remark.  Does that mean you reject all the other objective facts I provided?

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

FYI, I’m a photojournalist therefore I travel extensively.  I’ve visited 26 countries so it’s nonsense for you to say I only understand how things are in America and have no understanding of other countries.

 

You consistently view things subjectively, based on your own experience, and just as consistently reject objective views of the real world.

 

You say that you made a choice to avoid processed foods, and therefore anyone else who doesn’t must be lazy or ignorant.  You seem to say that only Americans have a serious obesity problem that’s connected to processed foods, when in fact it’s an acknowledged world wide issue, that any basic google search by an open-minded person will reveal.

 

How can you deny the simple law of supply and demand?  There are more people in the world than there is natural food to feed them.  Processed food is therefore essential.  Without it there would be famine!

 

I backed up what I said about Australia with a couple random objectives sources of information to support my view.  Why haven’t you guys commented on them?  

 

You consistently try and make my views seem extreme whether it’s about carbs, sugar, or the global prevalence and problems of processed foods when all I’m making are OBJECTIVE observations of facts.

 

If you want to fiercely defend your views, based only on your own subjective experiences, and ignore objective facts of the world around us, then we’re not intelligently debating; we’re merely engaged in a pissing match, which is pretty unproductive.

 

That appears to be the case because I can’t think of one single point I’ve made where you don’t smugly tell me I’m wrong.  It seem more important for you to “win” an argument than to really explore a controversial issue and find truth.  To me, that’s what debating is about.

 

If that’s the case, let’s get back on track.  If you’re only interested in winning this pissing match, OK, fine.  Have it your way.  I’ve got better things to do than continue playing this silly game.

It has nothing to do with winning or losing, it has to do with your view that the food producers are the root of all evil and portrait people as mindless drones. This is something I can't accept.

 

I have shown you that unprocessed food is available cheaply in the Netherlands and in Australia. 

 

I never said there is no processed food available. 

 

All I want from you is to accept that the consumers are partly to blame too not just the food industry as long as you can't do that then I will keep debating.

 

Tell me why is it that my parents, my sister in law and many others I know all cook food themselves and don't use much processed foods. Going to restaurants in the Netherlands is something what you sometimes do not always.

 

I can back it up by 100's of administrations i went through for clients that show how much they go to restaurants (it can be a business expense). So I am not talking about just my experience.

 

Just pulling an article from the internet and disregarding people like vincent and me who actually lived long term in countries is crazy. You claim you travel a lot, i am practically sure that you did not cook your own meals during your travels or  got familiar with all the shops in area's.

 

I did not say it was an American only problem but its almost the biggest problem in the US.

 

If you look at the graph you see its almost 3 times worse in the US then the Netherlands

Edited May 31, 2019 by robblok

[thaiguzzi]

On 8/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, simon43 said:

Here's my feedback about a 48 hour fast that I did from 7 pm on Friday evening through to 7pm on Sunday evening,

 

On 8/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, simon43 said:

On Friday evening I ate my usual evening meal of fish, nuts and ginger tea.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, simon43 said:

This time, I settled for black coffee and cucumber water.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, simon43 said:

quiora, flax and pumpkin seeds,

 

On 8/5/2018 at 8:32 PM, simon43 said:

My weight certainly dropped during this fast, probably overall by at least 1 - 1.5 Kg.

Dude,

i think i'll just stay overweight, it's more fun.

[villagefarang]

As the OP you need to take some responsibility for the tone of this debate.  Perhaps you need a few more carbs to help you mellow out.????

[WaveHunter]

56 minutes ago, robblok said:

It has nothing to do with winning or losing, it has to do with your view that the food producers are the root of all evil and portrait people as mindless drones. This is something I can't accept.

 

I have shown you that unprocessed food is available cheaply in the Netherlands and in Australia. 

 

I never said there is no processed food available. 

 

All I want from you is to accept that the consumers are partly to blame too not just the food industry as long as you can't do that then I will keep debating.

 

Tell me why is it that my parents, my sister in law and many others I know all cook food themselves and don't use much processed foods. Going to restaurants in the Netherlands is something what you sometimes do not always.

 

I can back it up by 100's of administrations i went through for clients that show how much they go to restaurants (it can be a business expense). So I am not talking about just my experience.

 

Just pulling an article from the internet and disregarding people like vincent and me who actually lived long term in countries is crazy. You claim you travel a lot, i am practically sure that you did not cook your own meals during your travels or  got familiar with all the shops in area's.

 

I did not say it was an American only problem but its almost the biggest problem in the US.

 

If you look at the graph you see its almost 2.5 times worse in the US then the Netherlands

I don’t disagree that consumers are partly to blame.  Of course they are!  If you’re talking about some slob who plops himself in front of the TV every night drinking beer and eating Doritos, yeah...people like that are lazy and ignorant and totally to blame.

 

But what about a poor family where both husband an wife must work full time jobs and then come home at the end of the day and feed their children.  Granted, some may have the wisdom and energy at the end of a hard day to prepare & feed them a nutritious, wholesome meal.  

 

HOWEVER, many will think that’s what they’re doing when they use processed foods to do it, when in reality, the producers of those foods have tricked them into believing those foods are as nutritious and healthy by using deceptive marketing and misleading nutritional information on the labels.

 

Do you think I’m overstating such deceptive practices by the food industry?  Google it and you’ll find out my view is not one of an “alarmist”; it’s a fact.

 

I don’t disagree with you that Americans are the worst offenders when it comes to poor food choices and portion sizes.  That’s a fact for sure, and I’ve seen and heard the same reactions to American eating habits by foreigners as well.  So I agree with you 100% on that for sure.

 

But the funny thing is that American fast food is hugely popular in almost ever single country where it is introduced.  Like I said, 7-ELEVEN, KFC, and McDonalds are everywhere in Thailand, and just as many Thais as foreigners frequent them.  And I find that all the more remarkable because, as you point out, those places are significantly more expensive than indigenous Thai foods.

 

Why are they so popular in a foreign country like Thailand where the normal eating practices have traditionally been nutritious and healthy?

 

You could say it’s because they are novel and unusual to a Thai person, and that might be partly true, but why do they frequently come back?

 

In my view it’s because such foods are intentionally engineered to make people crave them, and also to make them over-consume them.  

 

I’m talking about scientists deliberately figuring out how to make their food effect centers in the brain that control the senses of pleasure derived from eating, and the centers in the brain that control satiety.

 

Do you agree with me on this fact that food producers like Mcdonalds or KFC actually do this intentionally, or do you think I’m just being a conspiracist?  There’s a lot of very compelling information out there on the net that supports my view on this.  What do you think?

 

All I’m trying to say is that not everybody has the ability to eat healthy, even if they want to.  Most people must rely on processed foods to survive in all developed countries to some extent, and most food producers are being less than honest in portraying the healthiness of the foods they make.

Edited May 31, 2019 by WaveHunter

[utalkin2me]

10 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

 

 

 

 

Dude,

i think i'll just stay overweight, it's more fun.

The real irony is you may live longer too. Enjoying your life vs overanalyzing every crumb that enters your body, I am betting on the guy who enjoys it all. 

[WaveHunter]

21 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

The real irony is you may live longer too. Enjoying your life vs overanalyzing every crumb that enters your body, I am betting on the guy who enjoys it all. 

Frankly...you might be right ????. I know a lot of people who eat anything and everything they want, smoke cigarettes, drink to excess, never exercise, and then live to a ripe, old age, and when they die, have no regrets.

 

In all honesty I wish I could be one of them!  

 

Unfortunately, I also know people who have suffered debilitating disease while still young, and older people who have lost all quality of life in their declining years because they didn’t take their health seriously.

 

Once you loose your health, there’s no turning back the clock.  So really it’s a crap shoot if you choose to ignore your health.  I’m just not a gambler at heart.  I hope you’re not either.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

23 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I don’t disagree that consumers are partly to blame.  Of course they are!  If you’re talking about some slob who plops himself in front of the TV every night drinking beer and eating Doritos, yeah...people like that are lazy and ignorant and totally to blame.

 

But what about a poor family where both husband an wife must work full time jobs and then come home at the end of the day and feed their children.  Granted, some may have the wisdom and energy at the end of a hard day to prepare & feed them a nutritious, wholesome meal.  HOWEVER, many will think that’s what they’re doing when they use processed foods to do it, when in reality, the producers of those foods have tricked them into believing those foods are as nutritious and healthy by using deceptive marketing and misleading nutritional information on the labels.

 

Do you think I’m overstating such deceptive practices by the food industry?  Google it and you’ll find out my view is not one of an “alarmist”; it’s a fact.

 

I don’t disagree with you that Americans are the worst offenders when it comes to poor food choices and portion sizes.  That’s a fact for sure, and I’ve seen and heard the same reactions to American eating habits by foreigners as well.  So I agree with you 100% on that for sure.

 

But the funny thing is that American fast food is hugely popular in almost ever single country where it is introduced.  Like I said, 7-ELEVEN, KFC, and McDonalds are everywhere in Thailand, and just as many Thais as foreigners frequent them.  And I find that all the more remarkable because, as you point out, those places are significantly more expensive than indigenous Thai foods.

 

Why are they so popular in a foreign country like Thailand where the normal eating practices have traditionally been nutritious and healthy?

 

You could say it’s because they are novel and unusual to a Thai person, and that might be partly true, but why do they frequently come back?

 

In my view it’s because such foods are intentionally engineered to make people crave them, and also to make them over-consume them.  I’m talking about scientists deliberately figuring out how to make their food effect centered in the brain that control the senses of pleasure derived from eating, and the centers in the brain that control satiety.

 

Do you agree with me on this fact that food producers like Mcdonalds or KFC actually do this intentionally, or do you think I’m just being a conspiracist?  There’s a lot of very compelling information out there on the net that supports my view on this.  What do you think?

 

All I’m trying to say is that not everybody has the ability to eat healthy, even if they want to.  Most people must rely on processed foods to survive in all developed countries to some extent, and most food producers are being less than honest in portraying the healthiness of the foods they make.

Wavehunter that was all I wanted to hear that people are responsible too.

 

Your poor family is true in the US but not in the Netherlands where unprocessed food is still cheap. 

 

Of course I agree with you that the food producers make their food in a way that much more is consumed.

 

My only beef was that you made it sound like there was no own responsibility. I just can't live with that. I could live with that remark about the US as you said the bad stuff is cheaper as healthy stuff. Thankfully that is not so in the Netherlands and many other European countries. I think you should say some people in the US (you cant say this about Europe because its not true there and certainly not true in Thailand where they have to pay extra for the bad food)

 

Those were just my points.

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

Wavehunter that was all I wanted to hear that people are responsible too.

 

Your poor family is true in the US but not in the Netherlands where unprocessed food is still cheap. 

 

Of course I agree with you that the food producers make their food in a way that much more is consumed.

 

My only beef was that you made it sound like there was no own responsibility. I just can't live with that. I could live with that remark about the US as you said the bad stuff is cheaper as healthy stuff. Thankfully that is not so in the Netherlands and many other European countries. I think you should say some people in the US (you cant say this about Europe because its not true there and certainly not true in Thailand where they have to pay extra for the bad food)

 

Those were just my points.

You make excellent points.  I have the same view of people who actually have a choice to eat healthy but deliberately chose to indulge in eating foods that they know are bad for them.

 

And as you previously mentioned in another post, not all processed foods are unhealthy.  Some are actually quite healthy and nutritious, and I don't just mean foods you can only find in a health food store; I'm talking about national brands you can find in any supermarket.  So my view is not that all processed foods are evil.

 

My "beef" though is that many people consume processed foods that they think are healthy because of deceptive marketing and misleading nutritional information on food labels, when in fact they are not. 

 

That isn't the consumer's fault!  They are essentially being lied to by food producers, and the reason is purely profit-driven.

 

What ever they can get away with to improve their bottom line they will do, even if it involves spending huge amounts of money lobbying the government and watch-dog organizations to allow for their deceptions to go unchallenged.  I'm not a conspiracist in this view.  It is actual fact and any Google search will find credible sources to confirm it. 

 

I'm not saying it is "evil" on their part.  It's just business, and as such, it is their responsibility to their shareholders to act in this manner...but that doesn't make it right.

 

This issue is not just confined to the USA;  it is just as rampant in any country where processed foods are produced, and it's a serious problem because it's not just a matter of "stretching the truth" a little, it's downright deception that has serious implications to public health.

 

A friend of my family owns a frozen food processing plant in Germany and he makes no secret that high fructose corn syrup and various artificial additives are vital to their bottom line, and he admits (though not publicly) that they are "not the best things for your health".  Whenever we've been guests at his home, his food products are never a part of the meals we eat.  So, that's my subjective take on this.

 

But there is objective proof that such deceptive practices are a global problem, and not simply confined to the USA.  The science-based study about Australia I previously linked in reply to VincentJR, and include again here, presents pretty damning evidence from a credible source that these deceptive practices and resultant public health concerns exist in Australia too, and I suspect it's no different in any developed country in the world. 

 

This is the article appearing in Public Health Nutrition 17 July 2017:

Ultra-processed family foods in Australia: nutrition claims, health claims and marketing techniques

 

If you are a pragmatic person you really have to admit that  processed foods are essential if the world population is to be fed.  It's just a simple matter of supply and demand.  Famine would result if processed foods were suddenly banished. 

 

The issue is not whether people should eat them or not; the issue is that they need to be made to be more nutritious and healthy, and the industry has to be forced to be more transparent and honest in how they market them, and how they provide nutritional content on the labels.

 

At present, the public is being grossly deceived by misleading marketing and legal loopholes that allow them to be completely misleading with regard to nutritional content and quantities on food labels.  Because of this deception, many consumers, through no fault of their own, are led to believe they are eating healthy, when in fact they are not.

 

That's my beef, pure and simple.

Edited May 31, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

@robblok @VincentRJ

I just want to emphasize the fact that processed foods are indeed essential to support world populations today.  You would not have the personal  "choice" to eat only unprocessed natural foods, as you say you prefer, if processed foods were suddenly banished, and  the rest of the population was not able to support themselves on them.  There is simply not enough supply of natural foods to go around to everyone today. 

 

Doesn't that make sense?

 

To me, this means it isn't a matter of whether or not to eat processed foods, it's a matter of making processed foods more nutritionally viable, and for the producers to be more transparent and honest in how they are marketing and in providing accurate nutritional contents and quantities without all the trickery that currently exists.

Edited May 31, 2019 by WaveHunter