I just finished a 48 hour intermittent fast (IF)

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I don't care that you disagree, and in your case you might be right. Though I am not sure about your 1000 calories as its quite high and most computers overestimate things quite a bit. 

 

Most people don't do 2 hour bike rides, most people me included would be hard pressed to burn 500 calories a day from exercise. Eating 500 calories a day less is far easier and most people also don't exercise 7 days a week. So given all those things exercise is not that great for weight control.

 

It might be different in your case (still doubt the 1000 calories) as its often overstated.

 

https://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/are-you-overestimating-calorie-burn

 

I like exercise but i don't think it helps as much as you think (unless you really go out each and every day for your 2 hour ride). 

 

I think diet be it Keto (no problem with keto just with keto fanatics), IF, Paleo, normal caloric restrictions is the best way to lose weight.

 

Also all diets give similar results and keto has no advantage (unless the person has an insulin problem). I like my carbs before a workout, it gives me a better workout and helps building muscle. You can't build muscle while on low carb (proven to be a fact) in the same extend as with carbs. 

 

But you won't hear me saying that one diet suits all.

Your comments are fair; I'm not saying exercise alone is the answer if you are overweight.  Obviously you have to cut down on food intake but dieting alone usually ends up with the weight being regained.  You need to exercise unless you want to endlessly be on one diet after another.

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Your comments are fair; I'm not saying exercise alone is the answer if you are overweight.  Obviously you have to cut down on food intake but dieting alone usually ends up with the weight being regained.  You need to exercise unless you want to endlessly be on one diet after another.

I will always need some sort of diet. Though I don't call it a diet i just eat healthy and not too much.

 

I have been exercising for years on end and without a good food program it would not have worked for me. 

 

I think exercise is real important for general health and quality of life, just don't really see it as great for weight loss. (of course 2 hour bike rides every day will work). 

 

Research has shown that people who do exercise are usually also more careful about their food. Also if you combine a healthy diet with exercise it just enhances the effects.

[WaveHunter]

36 minutes ago, robblok said:

I will always need some sort of diet. Though I don't call it a diet i just eat healthy and not too much.

 

I have been exercising for years on end and without a good food program it would not have worked for me. 

 

I think exercise is real important for general health and quality of life, just don't really see it as great for weight loss. (of course 2 hour bike rides every day will work). 

 

Research has shown that people who do exercise are usually also more careful about their food. Also if you combine a healthy diet with exercise it just enhances the effects.

I agree with that; proper nutrition and exercise go hand in hand.  I personally know of no one who has effectively lost excess body fat AND kept it off in the long term with only dieting or only exercise.  And it's not just about burning calories either.  A lot of people are under the false assumption that loosing excess body fat is just about "calories in vs calories out".  More importantly I think It's about positive hormonal changes that take place with adequate exercise and good nutrition.  This is just my opinion but it's one based on science, not the self-serving gurus on Youtube with all of their crapola ????

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

...It might be different in your case (still doubt the 1000 calories) as its often overstated.

https://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/are-you-overestimating-calorie-burn ...

 

Just wanted to address this.  I know it's sound a bit dubious but it's true, and if you have ever climbed Doi Suthep on a bike, I think you'd agree LOL!  My heartrate can easily climb to 160+ in steeper gradients. It is a killer workout but the endorphins afterwards make it almost like a "high"  Seriously, cycling is one of the best way to loose excess fat for anyone (when combined with proper nutrition of course).  I think one of the great benefits of exercising is the mental aspect.  It's kind of what you mentioned.  After a good hard workout, you're less inclined to spoil the effort by eating crappy food, ya know?  

[NCC1701A]

my Thai girlfriend who weights 47 kilos and has abs like a fitness instructor does not eat after 6pm every day until 7am or so.

 

not the same as a fast but the better time of day to eat.  

[dontoearth]

On 2/25/2019 at 7:35 AM, WaveHunter said:

Great post!  I was in the same situation with regard to HBP and being pre-diabetic as well.  Doctor insisted meds were the only option and it would be a life-long commitment.  My reaction was the same as yours; I did my own reading for several weeks and decided that nutrition, not meds could address the problem...and it proved to be a great decision!

 

What was really remarkable to me is how fast my high blood pressure and pre-diabetic condition responded to proper nutrition.  My key decision was to cut sugar and heavily processed foods from my diet; nothing really that radical, or difficult to do.  Blood pressure responded literally in a matter of weeks, and on my next blood tests a few months later my A1C and other markers were in the normal range.  I am still stunned to realize that poor nutrition could play such a powerful role in such serious health conditions.  

 

My doctor was pleased, even surprised how well his prescribed meds caused this turnaround.  When I told him I had not filled the prescriptions he was very annoyed with me!  I couldn't believe his reaction.  He was actually angry with me and told me he could no longer be my physician if I was unwilling to follow HIS advice!  I was actually speechless.  Of course that was OK with me because I had already decided I was no longer going to be his patient.  I have since found a great GP who believes in proactive health and not just reaching for a prescription pad.

 

Hippocrates, who lived around 400 B.C. said “Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”  Some advice is timeless!  These days it's too bad more physicians don't embrace this sentiment.

   I had the same reaction from my doctor.  I went on a 21 day vegan diet and my cholesterol and bp cleaned up perfectly.  He told he had never seen such a quick response to the meds.  I told him I was just following nutritional advice.  He told me he had serious patients that really needed him.  So I guess he is off killing other people.  ????  I had made the decision to let him go but he made breaking up so easy. 

[robblok]

9 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

my Thai girlfriend who weights 47 kilos and has abs like a fitness instructor does not eat after 6pm every day until 7am or so.

 

not the same as a fast but the better time of day to eat.  

I am the same.. I don't eat from 17:00 untill 9 am in general. But I don't really see that as a fast. Its just the way I have always eaten. 

[robblok]

8 hours ago, dontoearth said:

   I had the same reaction from my doctor.  I went on a 21 day vegan diet and my cholesterol and bp cleaned up perfectly.  He told he had never seen such a quick response to the meds.  I told him I was just following nutritional advice.  He told me he had serious patients that really needed him.  So I guess he is off killing other people.  ????  I had made the decision to let him go but he made breaking up so easy. 

I guess that is the difference between US doctors and those in the Netherlands. My brother when he was diagnosed with diabetic he was given a food program to follow. Sad to say he ignores it often as he feels he can't live without the crap food. He loves eating. 

 

He was always really slim, you could almost hold him up against the light and see through him (joke) but he was real small. He had a fast metabolic rate and could eat what he wanted. However it caught up with him.

[WaveHunter]

12 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

my Thai girlfriend who weights 47 kilos and has abs like a fitness instructor does not eat after 6pm every day until 7am or so.

 

not the same as a fast but the better time of day to eat.  

There's a lot to be said (in a positive way) for not eating into the evening hours, especially with regard to carbohydrates.

[WaveHunter]

11 hours ago, dontoearth said:

   I had the same reaction from my doctor.  I went on a 21 day vegan diet and my cholesterol and bp cleaned up perfectly.  He told he had never seen such a quick response to the meds.  I told him I was just following nutritional advice.  He told me he had serious patients that really needed him.  So I guess he is off killing other people.  ????  I had made the decision to let him go but he made breaking up so easy. 

It's a never ending source of amazement to me how ignorant some MD's can be about basic nutrition.  I'm really convinced that a majority of diseases and maladies faced today have poor nutrition as a root cause. 

 

It's very rare to find an MD that practices proactive medicine; in other words, guiding their patients towards a healthy lifestyle rather than waiting for problems to occur and then whipping out their Rx pad.  If you find a good physician who practices proactive medicine, consider yourself lucky!   

 

I have such a physician here in Chiang Mai and her name is Nisachon Morgan, M.D for anyone that's curious.  Unfortunately, I am moving to Pratumnak next month (Pattaya) and am having problems finding a good physician.  I posted to the forums here and got no useful referrals at all!  So...if any of you have a suggestion, I'd sure appreciate it ????

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

I guess that is the difference between US doctors and those in the Netherlands. My brother when he was diagnosed with diabetic he was given a food program to follow. Sad to say he ignores it often as he feels he can't live without the crap food. He loves eating. 

 

He was always really slim, you could almost hold him up against the light and see through him (joke) but he was real small. He had a fast metabolic rate and could eat what he wanted. However it caught up with him.

Yeah, that's the problem with a lot of people I ride with.  A lot of them are in their 20's and are Vegans (good thing IMHO) but they think the key to cycling performance is massive intake of carbs, not only during a ride but as a lifestyle choice.  Their mantra is "Carb The F*** Up" and they will literally mix massive amounts of processed white sugar into their water bottles to drink on a ride!

 

Their "guru" for this philosophy is a guy on YouTube called DurianRider and the guy is clearly NOT playing with a full deck!  You should view some of his videos just to be amazed at how many people actually embrace this kind of crapola!

 

You can get away with that kind of things when you are in your 20's ; hell, you can get away with practically anything at that age but there's no question that it's going to catch up with you eventually. 

 

Right now there is this huge debate whether it is excess carbs or excess dietary fat that leads to diabetes.  Each side has loads of research to support their view but when you look at the research that supports high fat as being the culprit and really dig into the research, you find, in many instances, that the studies have originated , or are funded by the processed food industry.

 

In my mind there is no question that excess carbs are the culprits, and when you see the correlation between the epidemic rise in type-2 Diabetes in children, and the rise of the fast food industry, the dates pretty much seem to match.

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Yeah, that's the problem with a lot of people I ride with.  A lot of them are in their 20's and are Vegans (good thing IMHO) but they think the key to cycling performance is massive intake of carbs, not only during a ride but as a lifestyle choice.  Their mantra is "Carb The F*** Up" and they will literally mix massive amounts of processed white sugar into their water bottles to drink on a ride! 

 

You can get away with that kind of things when you are in your 20's but there's no question that it's going to catch up with you eventually.  Right now there is this huge debate whether it is excess carbs or excess dietary fat that leads to diabetes.  In my mind there is no question that it is the former.

You can also get away with it if you like you do massive 2 hour rides. Carbs are a great fuel source and not damaging at all as long as you burn them up. 

 

I can take more carbs too as I got more muscle (the more muscle you have the more carbs you can eat in one sitting).

 

I think you should not equate carbs with evil like you do but equate processed carbs and a sedentary life as evil. (slight difference).

 

I have just made (actually ordered the gf to make it) a massive bowl of pasta sauce (tomatoes / mushrooms / ground up pork tenderloin / onions / garlic). I will make small packages of it so I always have some pasta sauce in the freezer to go with my carb meal before exercise.

 

For people who want to build muscle carbs are essential (you can keep muscle on keto but building it is many times harder than if you eat carbs). I always take carbs before a workout and I feel the difference. That being said (i take 80 grams of whole wheat pasta in a sitting.. not that much). I don't eat much carbs on non training days. But for me carbs are essential.

 

Carbs are not evil at all, only when misused or processed.

 

For cycling keto is not a problem.. for weightlifting.. a problem if you want to gain muscle efficiently. 

[WaveHunter]

20 minutes ago, robblok said:

You can also get away with it if you like you do massive 2 hour rides. Carbs are a great fuel source and not damaging at all as long as you burn them up. 

 

I can take more carbs too as I got more muscle (the more muscle you have the more carbs you can eat in one sitting).

 

I think you should not equate carbs with evil like you do but equate processed carbs and a sedentary life as evil. (slight difference).

 

I have just made (actually ordered the gf to make it) a massive bowl of pasta sauce (tomatoes / mushrooms / ground up pork tenderloin / onions / garlic). I will make small packages of it so I always have some pasta sauce in the freezer to go with my carb meal before exercise.

 

For people who want to build muscle carbs are essential (you can keep muscle on keto but building it is many times harder than if you eat carbs). I always take carbs before a workout and I feel the difference. That being said (i take 80 grams of whole wheat pasta in a sitting.. not that much). I don't eat much carbs on non training days. But for me carbs are essential.

 

Carbs are not evil at all, only when misused or processed.

 

For cycling keto is not a problem.. for weightlifting.. a problem if you want to gain muscle efficiently. 

Well, the problem is that people who take in massive amounts of carbs while they are young will tend to eat that way as they age and their metabolism naturally slows down.  They no longer can burn off all those carbs so it starts to cause insulin insensitivity which eventually leads to fatty liver, which leads to a vicious cycle of ever increasing insulin insensitivity until they are shocked to find they are pre-diabetic.

 

BTW, for cycling keto IS a problem if you are a hill climber since that kind of riding requires the same type of explosive energy as heavy weightlifting.  As you said though, it all depends on how you use carbs.  Personally, I try to avoid carbs as much as possible during regular eating, and only use them in preparation for, and during actual rides.  

 

I don't consider myself a Keto practitioner in terms of lifestyle.  My diet is mainly (not exclusively) plant-based and there is some carb content (maybe around 100 grams a day, plus additional amounts for a ride), but I consciously think about not taking in more than I know I will burn off. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

1 minute ago, WaveHunter said:

Well, the problem is that people who take in massive amounts of carbs while they are young will tend to eat that way as they age and their metabolism naturally slows down.  They no longer can burn off all those carbs so it starts to cause insulin insensitivity which eventually leads to fatty liver, which leads to a vicious cycle of ever increasing insulin insensitivity until they are shocked to find they are pre-diabetic.

 

BTW, for cycling keto IS a problem if you are a hill climber since that kind of riding requires the same type of explosive energy as heavy weightlifting.  As you said though, it all depends on how you use carbs,  Personally, I try to avoid carbs as much as possible during regular eating, and only use them in preparation for, and during actual rides

I think what your saying is pretty much how I use carbs at this moment. I use a little less carbs as normal as I am still in a weight loss phase. I don't fear them but i try to eat them around my training to promote a good workout. 

 

I agree with your first paragraph, its just nuance that is often missing from the debate. Many dieters equate carbs to Hitler. But they are not evil if used good. 

 

I am sad for my brother as he really has a hard time changing his habits. For him not being able to eat what he wants is bad. Plus he drinks too and likes his beer. Though just bottle or so. Still all of it combined put him where he is now.

[WaveHunter]

16 minutes ago, robblok said:

I think what your saying is pretty much how I use carbs at this moment. I use a little less carbs as normal as I am still in a weight loss phase. I don't fear them but i try to eat them around my training to promote a good workout. 

 

I agree with your first paragraph, its just nuance that is often missing from the debate. Many dieters equate carbs to Hitler. But they are not evil if used good. 

 

I am sad for my brother as he really has a hard time changing his habits. For him not being able to eat what he wants is bad. Plus he drinks too and likes his beer. Though just bottle or so. Still all of it combined put him where he is now.

Yeah, I think we are on the same wavelength pretty much.  I sympathize for your brother.  I was in the same boat actually a few years back and it took the shock of finding out I was pre-diabetic to shock me into changing my ways!  In retrospect though, it wasn't as hard a change to make as many might believe. 

 

I agree that carbs are not evil.  As I sad, you can't rally enjoy cycling on zero carbs.   What's important is striking a balance.  "Excessive" carbs (amounts that will lead to insulin insensitivity) are however evil, IMHO.

 

I guess it all depends on what your real life priorities are.  For some people, enjoying a sedentary lifestyle and foods that are bad for you though tasty as hell is worth the price of a shorter and more problematic lifespan.  I know plenty of people like that and they are not ignorant or stupid people; they know the consequences and they accept them.  Of course, I am not one of them, but as the maxim goes "to each, their own" . 

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Yeah, I think we are on the same wavelength pretty much.  I sympathize for your brother.  I was in the same boat actually a few years back and it took the shock of finding out I was pre-diabetic to shock me into changing my ways!  In retrospect though, it wasn't as hard a change to make as many might believe. 

 

I guess it all depends on what your real life priorities are.  For some people, enjoying a sedentary lifestyle and foods that are bad for you though tasty as hell is worth the price of a shorter and more problematic lifespan.  I know plenty of people like that and they are not ignorant or stupid people; they know the consequences and they accept them.  Of course, I am not one of them, but as the maxim goes "to each, their own" . 

Yes basically you have to make a choice, change your life or go on what you did before and accept a shorter life (with the foods you like) but maybe with a lot of medical problems.

 

I will never attack people on their choices, only attack people who want to lose fat but refuse to take action and blame everyone besides themselves. I am perfectly ok with people saying.. im fat but i like my lifestyle. Not my life not my choice.

 

I was relatively fat around 2011 and after that started training good eating good. I lost 25 kg kept it off. Ok occasionally i went up a few kg (no more then 5) and had to lose it again but that was it. I did get heavier (but more muscular) so i was more looking at fat percentage then body-weight. Only 2018 was a bad year for me 4 months no training because of sleeping problems and with it i started eating bad foods. 

 

Now i lost most of it and am ok, but i like to be lean (visible abs) and that will take 2 more months i think. Upper aps are there lower still hidden. I am taking it slow and i know that losing weight to get real lean goes real slow. Been there before takes time and effort.

[WaveHunter]

20 hours ago, JaiLai said:

I burned 550 calories in my run today and was not really pushing myself.

I run that each day.

My point is that run does more good to my health than a bar of chocolate and a drink containing lots of sugar does bad.

I’d say my diet is not very good but loads of water and regular exercise keeps my weight balanced.

For me I find when trying to maintain a strict diet and staying lean you have to pretty much sacrifice too much, socialising / drinking / food you enjoy, it’s mentally difficult for me. The training part I find easy.

My very humble opinion only.

Some of the diets / regimes mentioned is this thread you’d more or less have to lock yourself away.....not for me!


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Good point you made.  As long as you can burn off bad carbs through exercise, they're not really that bad (except in the case of highly processed sugar such as high-fructose corn syrup...don't get me started LOL). 

 

That's why I believe that exercise is an integral part of maintaining good metabolic health.  Personally I hate the thought of being on some sort of highly regimented diet.  Complimenting proper nutrition with exercise is the ticket in my book ????

 

My only regimen in terms of diet is to do a 72 hour water fast once a month.  Call me crazy if you like but I am a strong believer in its' connection with autophagy.  Of course, that's another subject entirely.

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

35 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes basically you have to make a choice, change your life or go on what you did before and accept a shorter life (with the foods you like) but maybe with a lot of medical problems.

 

I will never attack people on their choices, only attack people who want to lose fat but refuse to take action and blame everyone besides themselves. I am perfectly ok with people saying.. im fat but i like my lifestyle. Not my life not my choice.

 

I was relatively fat around 2011 and after that started training good eating good. I lost 25 kg kept it off. Ok occasionally i went up a few kg (no more then 5) and had to lose it again but that was it. I did get heavier (but more muscular) so i was more looking at fat percentage then body-weight. Only 2018 was a bad year for me 4 months no training because of sleeping problems and with it i started eating bad foods. 

 

Now i lost most of it and am ok, but i like to be lean (visible abs) and that will take 2 more months i think. Upper aps are there lower still hidden. I am taking it slow and i know that losing weight to get real lean goes real slow. Been there before takes time and effort.

I think everybody slips up when it comes to "bad" foods.  I sure do! The processed food industry deliberately goes to great lengths to add things that are quite addictive; it's really shocking when you think about it. 

 

For instance, McDonalds mixes excessive salt and sugar into most of their foods on the premise that the sugar will blunt satiety and make you crave more food, and the salt will make you order larger soft drinks.  . 

 

They are not alone.  When you go into a grocery store and buy practically any kind of processed food item, it will contain HFCS (high fructose corn syrup); even items where you'd expect there to be no sugar (like salad dressing, for instance).  It's there simply to make you consume more!

 

It's rather diabolical when you think about it!  And they are very sneaky about it too!  Instead of listing the actual sugar content, they break it down into its' constituent  sugar types (dextrose, galactose, fructose) since the nutritional information on the side of the box is ordered according to quantity.  That way, the sugar content is way down the list and appears to be much smaller quantities.  Pretty darn sneaky, if you ask me!

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I think everybody slips up when it comes to "bad" foods.  I sure do! The processed food industry deliberately goes to great lengths to add things that are quite addictive; it's really shocking when you think about it. 

 

For instance, McDonalds mixes excessive salt and sugar into most of their foods on the premise that the sugar will blunt satiety and make you crave more food, and the salt will make you order larger soft drinks.  . 

 

They are not alone.  When you go into a grocery store and buy practically any kind of processed food item, it will contain HFCS (high fructose corn syrup); even items where you'd expect there to be no sugar (like salad dressing, for instance).  It's there simply to make you consume more!

 

It's rather diabolical when you think about it!

Yes certain combo's used by the food industry are made so we over consume food. Its is diabolical but it is how it is.

 

Normally i cook for myself so I don't really eat much processed food. However that period i was feeling like crap (lack of sleep does that to you) and just did not want to do anything so the mc donalds was easy (and other crap). All my own fault, nobody put a gun to my head. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

Yes certain combo's used by the food industry are made so we over consume food. Its is diabolical but it is how it is.

 

Normally i cook for myself so I don't really eat much processed food. However that period i was feeling like crap (lack of sleep does that to you) and just did not want to do anything so the mc donalds was easy (and other crap). All my own fault, nobody put a gun to my head. 

 

 

Off topic but have to confess that I have a weak spot for McDonalds.  I know it's bad for me but it tastes so good LOL!  It's funny how good it actually tastes and how terrible I feel within minutes of finishing it, and yet time will pass and the craving for it will return.  Luckily I only fall prey to it a few times a year.  Unfortunately, I walk past McDonalds almost every day and for the last few weeks I've been walking past a little slower than I should LOL!

Edited February 27, 2019 by WaveHunter

[dontoearth]

9 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Off topic but have to confess that I have a weak spot for McDonalds.  I know it's bad for me but it tastes so good LOL!  It's funny how good it actually tastes and how terrible I feel within minutes of finishing it, and yet time will pass and the craving for it will return.  Luckily I only fall prey to it a few times a year.  Unfortunately, I walk past McDonalds almost every day and for the last few weeks I've been walking past a little slower than I should LOL!

   The longer I stay away from mcdonald's the more likely the salty hi-carb food is to make me feel sick even before I finish it.  Keep walking on bye!  

[robblok]

10 hours ago, dontoearth said:

   The longer I stay away from mcdonald's the more likely the salty hi-carb food is to make me feel sick even before I finish it.  Keep walking on bye!  

What i have found is the more you eat fast food the more you want it. For me a clean cut of not eating it at all works best. I ate Mc Donalds and KFC during my off period (not always of course but once a week for sure). But once i stopped eating crap and went back to what i normally ate i had no cravings for the food anymore. 

 

I must say weight loss this time is a lot easier as before, countering the belief it only gets harder when you get older. I must say I am taking some stuff that MIGHT help (berberine and ashwagandha and cummerin). Berberine helps with blood glucose levels, cummerin, with inflamation, and ashwagandha against cortisol a problem for people who work out a lot). Also taking innulin and other fibers.  

 

This time i feel far less hunger and fat is dropping quite fast, still got some to go until lower abs are visible again but lost quite a lot already. When I mean quite a lot I mean quite a lot for myself and at a faster rate as in the past. Slow if I compare it with someone here who said he lost 15 kg in 3 weeks. I did not even have 15kg to lose. Closer to 10 I think. (its always hard to say as my bodyweight fluctuates a lot because of creatine use / not use and how hydrated I am and how carbed up).

 

Anyway this time it just seems to go faster and more consistent then before. I am keeping my proteins high, carbs relatively low (not keto) and more fat then usual. Plus the supplements i mentioned. Doing a full body workout 3-4 times a week instead of bro split before, TRT (same as before)

 

I do make better use of carbs this time, using them around my training time. But I don't think the way I exercise has much to do with the change. I think its more about the supplements and maybe the fact that I eat a lot more steamed vegetables. 

[JimP]

Someone at work is trying to get me to do intermittent fasting.  I say, NO WAY.  All this tripe about the body eating away at fat bores the daylights out of me.  I say, just eat a healthy meal.  The downside of fasting is that you get hungry.  You even said it in your post.  "I felt hungry and almost broke the fast."  Whatever happened to "listen to your body?"  You were hungry and you denied yourself.  Can't be all that great.  I fast for around 7-8 hours a day, which is enough; when I sleep.  And I feel great. 

 

 

[WaveHunter]

Starting end-of-month 72 hour water fast today.  As I said before, I fast like this primarily for what I believe are benefits related to autophagy, but another benefit is that such a fast acts sort of like a  metabolic “hard reset”.  What I mean is that it clears out the digestive tract, gives the digestive machinery a chance to rest, and allows your appetite and cravings to return to a natural baseline (I.e.: no more craving for McDonalds ????).

 

All I can say is that it works for me.  I don’t enjoy fasting but I like how I feel afterwards.

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by WaveHunter

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, JimP said:

Someone at work is trying to get me to do intermittent fasting.  I say, NO WAY.  All this tripe about the body eating away at fat bores the daylights out of me.  I say, just eat a healthy meal.  The downside of fasting is that you get hungry.  You even said it in your post.  "I felt hungry and almost broke the fast."  Whatever happened to "listen to your body?"  You were hungry and you denied yourself.  Can't be all that great.  I fast for around 7-8 hours a day, which is enough; when I sleep.  And I feel great. 

 

 

To each their own, but your understanding of metabolic fasting is quite flawed, based on your comments.  For instance, hunger is not a downside of fasting; it is only a temporary state as the faster’s body transitions into ketosis, then it goes away as ketones allow stored fats become a fuel source.

 

There is a lot of science that supports the benefits of deliberate “intelligent” fasting on a periodic basis.  Being fasted is actually a very natural state.  You said it yourself; everybody fasts when they sleep!  A dedicated fast is only an extension of this.

 

Perhaps it’s not right for you but you really should not condemn something you haven’t thought about in an unbiased way.  I’m not referring to the guru-speak mumbo jumbo you see on YouTube; I’m speaking of things like Nobel Prize winning research into fasting induced autophagy, and also the fact that dedicated fasting has been practiced in various forms since the dawn of time.  

 

Our very survival as a species relies on our body’s remarkable ability to fast.  If that were not true we would have perished long ago and not be here debating this topic ????

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by WaveHunter

[brokenbone]

51 minutes ago, JimP said:

Someone at work is trying to get me to do intermittent fasting.  I say, NO WAY.  All this tripe about the body eating away at fat bores the daylights out of me.  I say, just eat a healthy meal.  The downside of fasting is that you get hungry.  You even said it in your post.  "I felt hungry and almost broke the fast."  Whatever happened to "listen to your body?"  You were hungry and you denied yourself.  Can't be all that great.  I fast for around 7-8 hours a day, which is enough; when I sleep.  And I feel great. 

 

 

its uncomfortable to be hungry and its uncomfortable being fat, you just have to make up your mind which one is more uncomfortable, and pick the other solution.

 

for me, what did it was my jeans were to tight the zipper would open in 5 seconds,

it got embarrassing and i refused to adjust to bigger jeans, only remaining solution was to give up on food, too

Edited February 28, 2019 by brokenbone

[robblok]

1 hour ago, brokenbone said:

its uncomfortable to be hungry and its uncomfortable being fat, you just have to make up your mind which one is more uncomfortable, and pick the other solution.

 

for me, what did it was my jeans were to tight the zipper would open in 5 seconds,

it got embarrassing and i refused to adjust to bigger jeans, only remaining solution was to give up on food, too

Being fat is a choice, not an easy choice but as you say its a choice. Only few can't improve on their weight if they really want too. 

 

I don't feel much hunger now (its present at times) but much better as the last time I lost weight. 

 

Its just nice to see the belly get better.

[robblok]

1 hour ago, WaveHunter said:

To each their own, but your understanding of metabolic fasting is quite flawed, based on your comments.  For instance, hunger is not a downside of fasting; it is only a temporary state as the faster’s body transitions into ketosis, then it goes away as ketones allow stored fats become a fuel source.

 

There is a lot of science that supports the benefits of deliberate “intelligent” fasting on a periodic basis.  Being fasted is actually a very natural state.  You said it yourself; everybody fasts when they sleep!  A dedicated fast is only an extension of this.

 

Perhaps it’s not right for you but you really should not condemn something you haven’t thought about in an unbiased way.  I’m not referring to the guru-speak mumbo jumbo you see on YouTube; I’m speaking of things like Nobel Prize winning research into fasting induced autophagy, and also the fact that dedicated fasting has been practiced in various forms since the dawn of time.  

 

Our very survival as a species relies on our body’s remarkable ability to fast.  If that were not true we would have perished long ago and not be here debating this topic ????

 

 

One argument that i have always found funny is that we used to do it in the past so its good for us. Paleo argument and now used by you for fasting too.

 

Thing is doing new things and adding more food better hygiene and so on has extended our life well beyond what was normal before. So doing things as they were done in the past are not the most optimal thing per se. 

 

I am of the opinion that having the right foods available and consuming them is better then fasting / starving. I am not sure if you have ever watched TV series like those of Ed Stafford, or the other survivalist in Africa and other places. I got a real good view what lack of food did to a body and mind. I can't say it was beneficial. The only reason our ancestors did not eat all the time was that they could fail in their hunting, fasting was caused by failure. 

 

I bet if you had 2 groups of people one that fasted a lot because they failed their hunting a lot and an other group that got all their regular meals that group 2 would be far healthier then group 1.

 

If you like those kind of shows just look for ed stafford (he survived on an island for 60 days got dumped there naked) Just look at how fasting (lack of food) influenced him. His mental power was greatly diminished and so was his physical power. What happened to him is what happend to the hunter gatherers of old. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_with_Ed_Stafford

 

I concede its not the same as your fast, so it might not be te same. But it gives you something to think about. I loved that show actually.

 

[WaveHunter]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

One argument that i have always found funny is that we used to do it in the past so its good for us. Paleo argument and now used by you for fasting too.

 

Thing is doing new things and adding more food better hygiene and so on has extended our life well beyond what was normal before. So doing things as they were done in the past are not the most optimal thing per se. 

 

I am of the opinion that having the right foods available and consuming them is better then fasting / starving. I am not sure if you have ever watched TV series like those of Ed Stafford, or the other survivalist in Africa and other places. I got a real good view what lack of food did to a body and mind. I can't say it was beneficial. The only reason our ancestors did not eat all the time was that they could fail in their hunting, fasting was caused by failure. 

 

I bet if you had 2 groups of people one that fasted a lot because they failed their hunting a lot and an other group that got all their regular meals that group 2 would be far healthier then group 1.

 

If you like those kind of shows just look for ed stafford (he survived on an island for 60 days got dumped there naked) Just look at how fasting (lack of food) influenced him. His mental power was greatly diminished and so was his physical power. What happened to him is what happend to the hunter gatherers of old. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marooned_with_Ed_Stafford

 

I concede its not the same as your fast, so it might not be te same. But it gives you something to think about. I loved that show actually.

 

I agree with your argument on one level; just because paleo man was forced to fast doesn't in itself mean that fasting is good.  Paleo man's lifespan was significantly less than ours is today so on that basis it would be easy to say we are better off today than Paleo man was back then.  However, we live in a completely different world today than Paleo man did back then.  So, in my mind, there is a new reason to consider the virtues of periodic fasting.

 

Unlike Paleo man, we live in a world of highly processed foods with all sorts of man made chemicals such as high fructose corn syrup.  Toxic fertilizers and pollution of our oceans with toxic chemicals did not exist back then.  Even for those who try to eat healthy, the negative effects of these is inescapable. 

 

Some will argue that the our bodies are perfectly capable of ingesting heavily processed foods and dealing with excessive sugar without issue, and our bodies are perfectly capable of purging those environmental toxins from the foods we eat. 

 

I disagree.  Fasting is a way to address this.  BUT WAIT!!!  Don't jump all over me under the assumption that I'm saying that fasting is a detox mechanism because that is NOT what I am saying at all.

 

The damage has already been done.  Fasting will not rid the body of those toxins any better than the body can do on its' own  What it will have an effect on though is dealing with the damage that has already been done.

 

The damage I am speaking of is the resultant defective proteins and organelles, abnormal protein aggregate accumulation, and intracellular pathogens that result from excessive dietary sugar and environmental toxins in the food chain. 

 

The body has a mechanism for ridding and/or recycling these damaged cellular constituents and creating new, healthy ones in their place.

 

It's called autophagy.  It is a naturally occurring mechanism that goes on within our bodies 24/7.   This mechanism has only been understood in the last few years, mainly through the work of Yoshinori Ohsumi who was awarded the 2016 Nobel prize for his research...and one of the key take-aways from this research is that nutritional deprivation greatly accelerates the process!

 

The reason is simple to understand.  When glycogen stores become depleted during fasting, the body must find an alternative source of fuel.  Ketosis allows fats to be used as fuel BUT until sufficient ketone bodies are produced (typically around 72 hours) this can not occur. 

 

So, during this interim period, the body is forced to catabolize proteins.  Some will argue that this is a bad thing but it is not!

 

While some essential proteins (i.e.: muscle) will be sacrificed (far less than most people assume), the body is smart enough to recognize that essential proteins (i.e.: those associated with the heart and with other muscles) are vital to survival so it instead it seeks out less important proteins to use as fuel, and that happens to be the damaged, defective or unnecessary proteins within our cells.  This is what Ohsumi was able to demonstrate, and the reason he was awarded the Nobel prize. 

 

By any standard, this newly found knowledge is a true game-changer because there is strong scientific evidence that these damaged proteins are responsible for many forms of cancer, and many neurological diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

 

Periodic nutritional fasting is simply a way to kick autophagy into high gear.  From my readings, it seems the sweet spot for maximum effect is 72 hours.  A 72 hour fast is not going to be a bad thing for any one who is reasonably healthy with no pre-existing medical conditions.  The minor discomfort of going without food for a few days once a month for this process to occur is worth it as far as I'm concerned.  I just see it as basic "housekeeping" for my body.

Edited February 28, 2019 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I agree with your argument on one level; just because paleo man was forced to fast doesn't in itself mean that fasting is good.  Paleo man's lifespan was significantly less than ours is today so on that basis it would be easy to say we are better off today than Paleo man was back then.  However, we live in a completely different world today than Paleo man did back then.  So, in my mind, there is a new reason to consider the virtues of periodic fasting.

 

Unlike Paleo man, we live in a world of highly processed foods with all sorts of man made chemicals such as high fructose corn syrup.  Toxic fertilizers and pollution of our oceans with toxic chemicals did not exist back then.  Even for those who try to eat healthy, the negative effects of these is inescapable. 

 

Some will argue that the our bodies are perfectly capable of ingesting heavily processed foods and dealing with excessive sugar without issue, and our bodies are perfectly capable of purging those environmental toxins from the foods we eat. 

 

I disagree.  Fasting is a way to address this.  BUT WAIT!!!  Don't jump all over me under the assumption that I'm saying that fasting is a detox mechanism because that is NOT what I am saying at all.

 

The damage has already been done.  Fasting will not rid the body of those toxins any better than the body can do on its' own  What it will have an effect on though is dealing with the damage that has already been done.

 

The damage I am speaking of is the resultant defective proteins and organelles, abnormal protein aggregate accumulation, and intracellular pathogens that result from excessive dietary sugar and environmental toxins in the food chain. 

 

The body has a mechanism for ridding and/or recycling these damaged cellular constituents and creating new, healthy ones in their place.

 

It's called autophagy.  It is a naturally occurring mechanism that goes on within our bodies 24/7.   This mechanism has only been understood in the last few years, mainly through the work of Yoshinori Ohsumi who was awarded the 2016 Nobel prize for his research.

 

While autophagy is a naturally occurring mechanism,  its' effects are greatly accelerated during periods of nutritional deprivation (fasting).  The reason is simple to understand.  When glycogen stores become depleted during fasting, the body must find an alternative source of fuel.  Ketosis allows fats to be used as fuel BUT until sufficient ketone bodies are produced (typically around 72 hours) this can not occur. 

 

So, during this interim period, the body is forced to catabolize proteins.  However, the body is smart enough to recognize that essential proteins (i.e.: those associated with the heart and with other muscles) are vital to survival so it instead it seeks out less important proteins to use as fuel, and that happens to be the damaged, defective or unnecessary proteins within our cells.  This is what Ohsumi was able to demonstrate, and the reason he was awarded the Nobel prize. 

 

By any standard, this newly found knowledge is a true game-changer because there is strong scientific evidence that these damaged proteins are responsible for many forms of cancer, and many neurological diseases such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's.

 

Periodic nutritional fasting is simply a way to kick autophagy into high gear.  From my readings, it seems the sweet spot for maximum effect is 72 hours.  A 72 hour fast is not going to be a bad thing for any one who is reasonably healthy with no pre-existing medical conditions.  The minor discomfort of going without food for a few days once a month for this process to occur is worth it as far as I'm concerned.  I just see it as basic "housekeeping" for my body.

Ok if this research holds up (have to see that in the future) then you are right. Still if i look at how the people responded to not eating in those shows. They had to get their own food and could not, plus they did a lot of physical things like building shelter looking for food ect it really made them weak, mentally unstable ect. I am not sure how long it took for them to get in that state but it did not look healthy. I am not sure how many days these guys went without food or little food but its probable it was over 72 hours.

 

Anyway it is interesting to know about this research. I won't be doing it until i have more proof but it certainly is interesting just like research on gut bacteria and metabolic rate / fat loss ect.

 

Just out of curiosity do you do bike rides while you are on a fast ?