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Act on anti-Semitism or face 'eternal shame', deputy leader of UK's Labour Party

 

FILE PHOTO: Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of Britain's Labour Party joins a demonstration demanding the re-nationalization of the railways, outside King's Cross station in London, June 25, 2018. REUTERS/Henry Nicholls/File Photo

 

LONDON (Reuters) - The deputy leader of Britain's opposition Labour Party increased pressure on its leader, Jeremy Corbyn, over anti-Semitism on Sunday, saying the party could "disappear into a vortex of eternal shame" unless he tackled a growing crisis.

 

Corbyn has been criticised by Jewish groups for what they describe as his tolerance of anti-Semitism in Labour, a crisis that has threatened his standing at a time when the governing Conservatives are struggling to unite behind a Brexit plan.

 

Corbyn's again appealed to Jewish members on Sunday, using a video message to press his pledge to drive anti-Semitism out of the party "for good" after a similar attempt fell flat for several Jewish groups on Saturday. One -- the Jewish Labour Movement -- called for action, not words.

 

In an interview with the Observer newspaper, deputy leader Tom Watson took aim at Corbyn saying the party had to "take a long, hard look at ourselves, stand up for what is right and present the party as fit to lead the nation - or disappear into a vortex of eternal shame and embarrassment".

 

"I think it's very important that we all work to de-escalate this disagreement."

 

He called on Corbyn to adopt in full an internationally accepted definition of anti-Semitism. Labour says it has concerns about part of the definition but had re-opened discussions to take into account Jewish community concerns.

 

In his message, Corbyn did not refer to the definition but apologised for the hurt caused to many Jewish people and pledged to speed up disciplinary cases in Labour to drive out anti-Semitism.

 

"People who use anti-Semitic poison need to understand: You do not do it in my name, or the name of my party. You are not our supporters," he said.

 

The Labour Party has been benefiting in the polls from a row in the Conservatives over Prime Minister Theresa May's plans for Britain to leave the European Union, which has deepened divisions and raised the possibility of an early election.

 

But some Labour members fear the growing row over anti-Semitism will damage the party before an election, which is due in 2022.

 

(Reporting by Elizabeth Piper; editing by David Evans)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-08-06

 

[DoctorG]

Luckily for Britons 2022 is a long way off because, really, what voting options do they have?

[Nemo.]

Suspicious how Labour is under such attack while Brexit negotiations go south. I am sure there are no rascists in the Tory party....

[vogie]

Maybe Corbyns past is beginning to catch up with, when you meet up with the likes of Hamas, Hezbolla and the IRA and call them friends, it hardly endears you to anybody apart the far left.

[My Thai Life]

While Israel continues to operate an apartheid state there will always be people in the Labour Party who some journalists and conservative opportunists label "anti-semite".

 

[My Thai Life]

Uh no, the story is not about anti-semitism and the UK, it is about allegations of anti-semitism made against the Labour Party. If you think there's no agenda and no context then...

 

...and as for "just anti Israel (who just happened to be Jews)". Aren't 20% of Israeli citizens Arabs? And isn't support for this oppressed 20% the reason that Labour is being accused of "anti-semitism"?

Edited August 6, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, ezzra said:

When a party is desperate for votes, they pull out the anti semite rethorics that works well for centuries now, blame the jews, the jews are the source of all evil, and this is what the labour party is doing harping on the age long hatred and loathing of jews and by the look of it, they hit the right note...

The Labour Party have not “pull[ed] out the anti semite rethorics”.

 

Away with you and your lie.

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, ezzra said:

When a party is desperate for votes, they pull out the anti semite rethorics that works well for centuries now, blame the jews

The Labour Party has never pulled out "anti semite rethorics".

 

The opposite is actually happening. Now that Corbyn has, against all the odds, become leader of the Labour Party with massive party support, the press are desperately out to undermine him and the Labour Party because, given the volatility of UK politics at present, and given the current divisions in the Tory party, there is a real possibility that Corbyn could become PM. This terrifies them.

[Chomper Higgot]

29 minutes ago, sanemax said:

This story is about anti semitism and the UK , Jewish people in the UK and a UK Political party .

    As per usual , as soon as Jews are mentioned , people use that to attack Israel ,ans also denying that they are anti semetic........................just anti Israel (who just happened to be Jews) . 

You conveniently omit the fact the the UK Labour Party has for decades now been critical of Israel’s actions in the Israel/Palestine conflict and Israel’s actions towards the Palestinians.

 

Very specifically that the current leader of the UK Labour Party has consistently been critical of Israel on these matters.

 

Do some people use criticism of Israel as a cover to express their anti-semantic views? Of course they do and they need to be challenged every time they do.

 

But let’s not sign up to the idea that criticism of the actions of Israel must be anti-semantic.

[Proboscis]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

When a party is desperate for votes, they pull out the anti semite rethorics that works well for centuries now, blame the jews, the jews are the source of all evil, and this is what the labour party is doing harping on the age long hatred and loathing of jews and by the look of it, they hit the right note...

I think you might have got the wrong end of the stick here. If anything, the Labour party leadership would really wish that this issue would fade away and quickly. The last thing they would want to do at this stage is to stir things up and say anything derogatory about the Jews. Doing so will LOSE them votes by the lorry-load. I think that most people get that, no matter what side of the issue they are on.

 

The issue seems to me to be operating on two levels:

 

1. There are Jewish organizations and publications that want the Labour party to sign up to an international standard document of rejection of anti-semitism. Those organizations and publications say that not doing so is tantamount to condoning anti-semitism in the party. The Labour Party leadership has always been on the side of the Palestinian in their struggle for civil rights and future citizenship of their own state. The problem is how to balance that aspiration with the signing of the international standard document. The situation is somewhat complicated by the very minority faction of Jews who argue for the rights of Palestinians and who may have a different nuanced view of the international standard document referred to above but that has been drowned out in the media because the charge of anti-semitism is just such a hot story.

2. There is also an additional problem for Corbyn, which has grown out of the Labour party's decision to allow anyone to join the party for a small amount of money (now two pounds, I think) and immediately vote in the party leadership election. Almost anyone can get into the party as long as they have clearly not been convicted of a hate crime. You can imagine that a lot of folks in the party may harbour all sorts of views, not only against Jews but other minorities too. Meanwhile, there is also the "old guard" centerists who cannot stand the sharp left turn of the Corbynites and are happy to fuel a fire under the feet of Corbyn  - nothing better than the stick of anti-semitism to beat him with. To give you an idea of how this works, the party had to get rid of a very populist former mayor of London and old supporter of Corbyn because he made a comment in one argument about Hitler, in one of his earlier more sane moods suggesting a homeland for the Jews, thereby making the point that even Hitler in a certain mood could be seen as a "zionist" - apparently this is historical fact although there may be some wriggle room in the nuance. But even though the former mayor has never made anti-semitic remarks, had relationships with Jewish partners and may even have Jewish ancestry himself, he had to leave the party ahead of being thrown out for bringing the party into disrepute.

[dunroaming]

6 hours ago, Nemo. said:

Suspicious how Labour is under such attack while Brexit negotiations go south. I am sure there are no rascists in the Tory party....

I think this is the build up for a leadership challenge.  It just happens that anti-Semitism is the stick being used.  It is becoming more and more obvious that Labour smell an opportunity if they dump Corbyn. 

[My Thai Life]

I’ve been trying to get to the facts about this, not that there’s much respect for facts these days! My understanding is that Labour has incorporated the IHRA code itself, but has chosen not to incorporate 4 IHRA examples of supposedly anti-semitic behaviour. Labour has included the other IHRA examples, and added a few more of its own. The excluded 4 are:

 

1.    Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country.

Well, many immigrants from many ethnic groups are more loyal to their country of ethnic origin than to their country of residence – for example some Irish, some  muslims from their many originating countries, some Chinese, MOST OF THE FARANGS ON THAI VISA. Why should Jewish people get preferential treatment in this respect?

 

2.    Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour.

My understanding is that that state of Israel is founded on an ethnic Jewish notion, claiming mystical and divine connection to the soil via folklore and “divine” right. This is profoundly racist.

 

3.    Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations.

I don’t understand why this is included or excluded. I am not aware that Israel is expected to have higher standards than other democracies. I can understand why Israel as a democracy is expected to have higher standards than non-democratic middle eastern states.

 

4.    Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis.

Of course I understand that this would be profoundly provocative and offensive to many Jews. But national policy is national policy, and to seek to prevent discussion and comparison is inherently fascistic.

Edited August 6, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

Corbyn should be replaced 

 

Labour needs to be a credible opposition 

 

At the moment, there is no credible opposition 

 

In dangerous times such as these we need good leaders

 

Where are they? WHERE? 

[Scott]

Troll post and replies removed.  

[Proboscis]

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

Corbyn should be replaced 

 

Labour needs to be a credible opposition 

 

At the moment, there is no credible opposition 

 

In dangerous times such as these we need good leaders

 

Where are they? WHERE? 

Currently, the only way Corby can be replaced is by being voted out by the party membership. Given current understanding of the preferences of current party membership, this is not going to happen.

 

Although I am not a Tory, one has to hand it to the Tories with respect to leadership contests. They weed out the estreme candidates through a voting mechanism to reduce contestants down to two and only then are those two put to the party membership. In the case of Labour, all nominated candidates could be voted on by members. Corbyn was nominated and some of those who supported his nomination claimed later that they had done so to broaden the discussion. Had there been a system of candidate elimination down to two candidates, as the Torys do, it is likely that Corbyn would not have got in.

 

But, hard to change the rules of a party when the leader would lose out through such a change.

 

The only alternative is to hope for a new party or a mass defection by the centerists to the Lib-Dems. But I am afraid this is the late 1970s and 1980s repeating themselves all over again.

[geriatrickid]

Acting on the issue, would require an admission that  Labour has a problem.

The Momentum radicals refuse to allow discussion. Obviously, not all Labour supporters are bigots and obviously there are many who are not antisemitic. The party owes it to the decent and honourable party members to address the issue and to purge itself of the endemic hate espoused by a small number of bullies.

 

On 8/5/2018 at 9:50 PM, My Thai Life said:

Uh no, the story is not about anti-semitism and the UK, it is about allegations of anti-semitism made against the Labour Party. If you think there's no agenda and no context then...

...and as for "just anti Israel (who just happened to be Jews)". Aren't 20% of Israeli citizens Arabs? And isn't support for this oppressed 20% the reason that Labour is being accused of "anti-semitism"?

You make the claim that 20% of Israel's population are "oppressed". Yet, the majority of those arabs are quite content to live as Israelis. Perhaps it is the democratic system, or the rule of law, or the generous social benefits. You do no speak on behalf of these people, but do inject your hatred for Israel with the  unsubstantiated statement that the Arabs are oppressed. It might not be perfect and there may  cases of  injustice, but surprise, surprise  non Arab Israelis have the same issues and complaints.

 

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I’ve been trying to get to the facts about this, not that there’s much respect for facts these days! My understanding is that Labour has incorporated the IHRA code itself, but has chosen not to incorporate 4 IHRA examples of supposedly anti-semitic behaviour. Labour has included the other IHRA examples, and added a few more of its own. The excluded 4 are:

 

1.    Accusing Jewish people of being more loyal to Israel than their home country. Well, many immigrants from many ethnic groups are more loyal to their country of ethnic origin than to their country of residence – for example some Irish, some  muslims from their many originating countries, some Chinese, MOST OF THE FARANGS ON THAI VISA. Why should Jewish people get preferential treatment in this respect?

 

2.    Claiming that Israel's existence as a state is a racist endeavour.

My understanding is that that state of Israel is founded on an ethnic Jewish notion, claiming mystical and divine connection to the soil via folklore and “divine” right. This is profoundly racist.

 

3.    Requiring higher standards of behaviour from Israel than other nations.

I don’t understand why this is included or excluded. I am not aware that Israel is expected to have higher standards than other democracies. I can understand why Israel as a democracy is expected to have higher standards than non-democratic middle eastern states.

 

4.    Comparing contemporary Israeli policies to those of the Nazis.

Of course I understand that this would be profoundly provocative and offensive to many Jews. But national policy is national policy, and to seek to prevent discussion and comparison is inherently fascistic.

 

What a crock. You are working overtime with your hate promotion.

1. You assume that the UK's jews are "immigrants", particularly from Israel. Your premise is based upon a falsehood and seeks to deny the long standing presence of a jewish community in the UK. Most of the UK's jewish community have been in the UK for multiple generations. It is a dwindling population, reducing from about 450,00 in the 1950's to about 265,000 today. The jews have been emigrating. Accusing these  people of having greater loyalty to Israel is  akin to blood libel. Would you accuse  UK Catholics of a greater loyalty to Rome than the Crown?

 

2. Your understanding Israel as an ethnic notion iss an intentional misunderstanding.

 

3. You just  demonstrated the hypocrisy of the  Israel bashers. You hold Israel to higher standard than  other countries in the region.  Your justification is unethical and illogical. Mind you, this would explain why you will not  demand that the  approximate 1 million  jewish arab refugees thrown out of arab countries  be given  compensation for their  pain and suffering and lost possessions, lands and businesses.

 

4. How you would even make the comparison of Israel to nazi Germany is disgusting, but speaks volumes. You have to demonize  Israel and its jews. What's next, caricatures of bearded hooked nosed men eating the bones of Christian children?

 

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

Corbyn should be replaced 

Labour needs to be a credible opposition 

At the moment, there is no credible opposition 

In dangerous times such as these we need good leaders

Where are they? WHERE? 

Corbyn and his allies have purged many of the honourable decent  MPs and  stalwarts. Gone are many people with social convictions because they refused to embrace the stifling policies of the  Corbyn faction.  The bullies have taken over. I believe that we are watching the death of Labour. Perhaps people will turn to the Liberals and it will attract progressive conservatives and  responsible Labour party members again. Corbyn the unrepentant stasi stooge is having  his way with the destruction of a once reputable political party.

 

[sammieuk1]

A vortex within a vortex is called a Corbyn or a whirling mass of fluid ?

[dick dasterdly]

As far as I can see, there is little anti-semitism in the uk, or any of the political parties - so it's odd how this has suddenly been turned by the media into a 'Labour party problem'....

[My Thai Life]

@Geriatrickid. It's probably a big surprise to you that the UK, and most of the rest of the world have a different perspective on Palestine/Israel from north America, especially the USA, where the zionist lobby is particularly strong.

 

Regarding the 20% of Israelis who are not ethnic Jews being oppressed or not. It's a self-evident truth that they are.

 

Here's Chomsky, the celebrated Jewish intellectual's view: “In the Occupied Territories, what Israel is doing is much worse than apartheid. To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel, at least if by ‘apartheid’ you mean South African-style apartheid. What is happening in the Occupied Territories is much worse. There is a crucial difference. The South African Nationalists needed the black population. That was their workforce…The Israeli relationship to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories is totally different. They just do not want them. They want them out, or at least in prison.”

 

Regarding the IHRA issue that is at the heart of the latest attempt to defame Corbyn and undermine the Labour Party - you haven't bothered to reply to any of the points, you've simply gone for ad hominem attacks.

 

The Labour Party has been the natural political home for Jews in the UK for a long time. The Labour Party has also been the most outspoken supporter of Palestinian rights, something zionists refuse to accept.

 

The idea that a bunch of theocrats should determine Labour Party guidelines is farcical. Would you be happy if the Labour Party kowtowed to the ayatollahs, mullahs and imams? Why should rabbis expect special treatment?

 

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by My Thai Life

[vogie]

Heres a well written article from the New Statesmen.

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/07/jeremy-corbyn-and-anti-semitism-there-anything-left-say

[My Thai Life]

Here's a couple of quotes  from Jewish Voice For Labour:

 

“we are appalled by the actions and statements of the Board of Deputies. They do not represent us or the great majority of Jews in the party who share Jeremy Corbyn’s vision for social justice and fairness.”

 

“This is a politically motivated witch-hunt aiming to undermine the Corbyn leadership.”

[DaddyWarbucks]

Zionist groups with a history of uncritical support for Israel claim that Corbyn presents an existential threat to British Jews. This is disingenuous, hypocritical scaremongering.

We've seen this pattern repeatedly. UK commentators take the morally defunct option of backing right wing mainstream Zionist organizations' outrageous cries of "anti-Semitism" the moment Corbyn's Labour get ahead in the polls, or the moment there is a risk of serious public condemnation of Israel's horrific crimes against the Palestinians. All of these organizations spend a disproportionate amount of time promoting Israel in the UK, and cynically covering up the State's crimes, be it Israel's sporadic mass murders, such as the 500 Gazan children in 50 days in 2014, or the gradual ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs that has happened since Israel came into existence in 1948.

If this public row was really about Jews, it would have the definition "Anti-Semitism is hostility to Jews as Jews". It would be all we would require. But it is not just about hostility to Jews for being Jews, it has always been about protecting and validating Israel, it has always been about getting Corbyn out at all costs to prevent the UK from electing a pro-Palestinian Prime Minister, and that is why the definition has become corrupted.

While this Labour red herring of widespread anti-Semitism persists, the really dangerous anti-Semites are resurfacing. It will be too late to call out the real anti-Semitism of these people when the term's meaning will have been utterly compromised by those exploiting it to protect the Israeli state.

[dexterm]

Corbyn's attackers are working on the principle that throw enough unsubstantiated mud as frequently as possible and some of it is bound to stick.

 

They are a mixture of Blairites and Israeli lobbyists.

 

Some Labour Party members are cynically using anti-semitism as a useful tool. They don't give a hoot about genuine Jew hatred or Israel or Palestinians, so long as they can get more of their clique onto the National Executive Committee (NEC).. the governing body of the UK Labour Party

 

"You can’t help wondering whether, for some people, the motivation for accusing Corbyn of being an antisemite may be a teeny bit driven by the fact they don’t really like him.

For example, Ian McKenzie, who was chairman of Lewisham East Labour Party, wrote on Twitter that “the antisemitism, Brexit and Salisbury stuff is cutting through like the IRA/Iran stuff didn’t. We have a real chance of winning back NEC seats.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitism-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-jewish-holocaust-survivor-abuse-a8474846.html

..well worth a read. Quite an amusing satirical look at the real reasons behind this Get Corbyn brouhaha.

[geriatrickid]

Might as well  relabel this thread as the gathering point for TVF's jew bashers. The chomsky reference, tipped me off to the presence of a previously banned member.  The positive aspect of this is that the most vociferous of this forum's jew haters are marginalized and wield no societal influence. So bash away, I am gone.