Do doctors have Professional Indemnity Insurance

[GreasyFingers]

My real question has anyone had experience of making a claim against a doctor (or other professional for that matter) for an operation that was not successful.

 

My case was an eye cataract surgery by a ophthalmologist in a private regional hospital that went wrong. These operations are supposed to have a near 100% success rate but the doctor failed to remove all of the old lens due to a rupture of the lens capsule during the operation. While I could see with the eye there were problems. Subsequent to the operation I had a detached retina that required a vitrectomy operation that was done at the <Name of hospital edited out>.

 

Besides any of the personal problems with such an operation it has left me out of pocket by about 200K baht. In the overall scheme of things this is not a lot of money, but my wife's family is poor so it would be better spent on them. Has anyone made such a claim and how was it done, or is it just too difficult.

[metisdead]

Moved to the Health forum for knowledgeable answers.  Name of the hospital removed due to possible libel issues. 

[Kwasaki]

43 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

for an operation that was not successful.

 

Sorry for your problems not a nice place to be.

What proof do you have that the procedure was unsuccessful when maybe it was due to unforeseen complications during the operation.

Without a statement proving negligence from a another surgeon which would be highly unlikely a claim would not be possible.    

[geriatrickid]

To answer your questions, my experience has been that the Thai private hospitals self insure. The larger facilities may have a small  medmal policy.  However, that's not what matters. There are two issues that you have to deal with;

 

1. Legal: Do you have a case? Remember you have one year to file and all you can claim for are actual direct damages such as  reimbursement of the additional expenses to correct the  negative impact of the  initial procedure, and direct personal expenses  such as nursing care and lost wages  due to the injury..  

 

2.  Do you really have  an adverse event? The obligation is on you to prove your injury.  Unfortunately, some of the negative outcome you describe is indeed  documented and known. If you have underlying conditions such as a chronic circulatory problem, diabetes etc., this stuff  happens. Detached retinas while rare are not unusual.  If the physician did not warn you  it supports your case in respect to the obligation to give informed consent. Typically in the private big  facilities  the patient  has to sign consent forms which detail the  potential adverse events.

[Spidey]

Farang sues Thai hospital for negligence.

 

Your lawsuit will fail on the grounds of Thai face, if nothing else.

[GreasyFingers]

56 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

To answer your questions, my experience has been that the Thai private hospitals self insure. The larger facilities may have a small  medmal policy.  However, that's not what matters. There are two issues that you have to deal with;

 

1. Legal: Do you have a case? Remember you have one year to file and all you can claim for are actual direct damages such as  reimbursement of the additional expenses to correct the  negative impact of the  initial procedure, and direct personal expenses  such as nursing care and lost wages  due to the injury..  

 

2.  Do you really have  an adverse event? The obligation is on you to prove your injury.  Unfortunately, some of the negative outcome you describe is indeed  documented and known. If you have underlying conditions such as a chronic circulatory problem, diabetes etc., this stuff  happens. Detached retinas while rare are not unusual.  If the physician did not warn you  it supports your case in respect to the obligation to give informed consent. Typically in the private big  facilities  the patient  has to sign consent forms which detail the  potential adverse events.

Thanks for your information. The doctor admitted, while still in the operating room,  that something went wrong during the operation that he could not fix. He, and the hospital, carried out further tests over the next two weeks with no charge, which is basically an admission of fault.

 

Yes, all of the usual consent forms were signed before the operation. When I paid the account I wrote on the invoice that it was being paid under protest because the op was mot successful and made them keep a copy. This brought the hospital management into the discussion. I was offered, firstly a YAG laser treatment to remove the sediment but this meant waiting about 3 months for it to congeal together. I accepted this offer. Secondly a vitrectomy by a different ophthalmologist was offered. This was not accepted and if you know the post op procedure with this you would not willing do it. As it turned out it had to be done anyway.

 

Even though a cataract op is a common procedure there is a possibility, though rare, of a detached retina even when the op is successful. There were no other underlying conditions with my health that would cause the retinal detachment.

[GreasyFingers]

1 hour ago, Kwasaki said:

 

Sorry for your problems not a nice place to be.

What proof do you have that the procedure was unsuccessful when maybe it was due to unforeseen complications during the operation.

Without a statement proving negligence from a another surgeon which would be highly unlikely a claim would not be possible.    

If you read my above post there appears to be an admission of fault.

[rumak]

27 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

nks for your information. The doctor admitted, while still in the operating room,  that something went wrong during the operation that he could not fix. He, and the hospital, carried out further tests over the next two weeks with no charge, which is basically an admission of fault.

I am not a lawyer.....but i disagree with your use of words.  The doctor said that something went wrong.

He did not ADMIT that what went wrong was his fault.  This is what is meant when it is said that there

can be "complications" and why they require a patient to sign a form acknowledging such.

I am sure you do not agree with what i wrote.....maybe take a vote ?

BTW:  i am sorry it happenned !   but not sure if doctors fault or not.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by rumak

[Kwasaki]

18 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

If you read my above post there appears to be an admission of fault.

Well I have know idea of the outcome but I wish you well with your claim.

There's a guy here on TV they maybe able to advise you.

[GreasyFingers]

25 minutes ago, rumak said:

I am not a lawyer.....but i disagree with your use of words.  The doctor said that something went wrong.

He did not ADMIT that what went wrong was his fault.  This is what is meant when it is said that there

can be "complications" and why they require a patient to sign a form acknowledging such.

I am sure you do not agree with what i wrote.....maybe take a vote ?

BTW:  i am sorry it happenned !   but not sure if doctors fault or not.

 

I have no problem with what you say as I really do not want to go down the legal path if it is too much trouble. If there is a simple way to make a claim and then deal with the insurance company I would then do it. I have been on the wrong end of claims back home where the insurance will settle the deal without further litigation.

 

The doctor actually explained that the capsule was ruptured so he could not remove the old lens. His words were basically that he did not know what happened. As I have had experience with these type of things I have written down his words as best as I could recall them the next day.

[rumak]

8 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

I have no problem with what you say as I really do not want to go down the legal path if it is too much trouble. If there is a simple way to make a claim and then deal with the insurance company I would then do it. I have been on the wrong end of claims back home where the insurance will settle the deal without further litigation.

 

The doctor actually explained that the capsule was ruptured so he could not remove the old lens. His words were basically that he did not know what happened. As I have had experience with these type of things I have written down his words as best as I could recall them the next day.

worth a shot i guess.   Did everything turn out ok in the end ?   don't remember you saying if all is

better now or not.       

Edited August 9, 2018 by rumak

[GreasyFingers]

Just now, rumak said:

worth a shot i guess.   Did everything turn out ok in the end ?   don't remember you saying if all is

better now or not

Yes I can see ok but there are a couple of small problems but getting a doctor here to detail it would be difficult. The doctor that did the vitrectomy was supposed to give me a written report after the op but he "neglected" to do it. In any case they have on their reports that they cannot be used for litigation.

[Sheryl]

There is no such thing, here or elsewhere, as being able to make a claim directly with a hospital or doctor's insurer even if they have malpractice insurance. You have to negotiate a settlement with the hospital or get a court verdict.

There have been farangs who have succeeded in getting compensation for medical malpractice here. All that I know of, ended up settling out of court but did get lawyers etc. The cases I know of were really egregious, wheras yours sounds more like rare but known complication i.e. nothing to prove it was their fault. Lawyers here do not usually work on contingency basis so if you lose you are out the legal fees. Awards/settlements are much smaller than in the West and no punitive damages etc. Mostly just actual costs.

If you decide to proceed with this, get a lawyer but try to keep the lawyer's costs low. Main thing you want to do is signal serious intent by having lawyer send them a letter demanding compensation. BEFORE doing this, get all your hospital records. Patients have a right to this by law. Ask for them in a low key way from the medical records dept i.e. don't do anything to arouse worry until you have all copies. Even so, from what you say, they may already have been redacted.

A hospital's main interest in settling is to avoid bad publicity by avoiding a court case. If things actually get to court at that point they have nothing left to lose and as they have lawyers on the payroll already they can drag the case on for a long time waiting for you to go broke on the legal fees...and they will. So the idea is to settle out of court.


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[GreasyFingers]

22 hours ago, Sheryl said:

There is no such thing, here or elsewhere, as being able to make a claim directly with a hospital or doctor's insurer even if they have malpractice insurance. You have to negotiate a settlement with the hospital or get a court verdict.

There have been farangs who have succeeded in getting compensation for medical malpractice here. All that I know of, ended up settling out of court but did get lawyers etc. The cases I know of were really egregious, wheras yours sounds more like rare but known complication i.e. nothing to prove it was their fault. Lawyers here do not usually work on contingency basis so if you lose you are out the legal fees. Awards/settlements are much smaller than in the West and no punitive damages etc. Mostly just actual costs.

If you decide to proceed with this, get a lawyer but try to keep the lawyer's costs low. Main thing you want to do is signal serious intent by having lawyer send them a letter demanding compensation. BEFORE doing this, get all your hospital records. Patients have a right to this by law. Ask for them in a low key way from the medical records dept i.e. don't do anything to arouse worry until you have all copies. Even so, from what you say, they may already have been redacted.

A hospital's main interest in settling is to avoid bad publicity by avoiding a court case. If things actually get to court at that point they have nothing left to lose and as they have lawyers on the payroll already they can drag the case on for a long time waiting for you to go broke on the legal fees...and they will. So the idea is to settle out of court.


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Cheryl, that is the information I have been looking for so thank you. I am not a litigious type and do not like lawyers (dealt with too many of them back in Oz) so I need to decide whether it is worthwhile to find a lawyer that could send a letter.

[ThaiPauly]

My lung was punctured by a doctor giving me a routine pain block for cracked ribs.

 

My wife rushed me back into hospital as I was having trouble breathing, According to the doctor who plunged a massive needle into my lung I could have died

 

I spent a week in hospital recovering.

 

When I was discharged I refused to pay the bill. That brought the hospital manager to my room shouting and hollering that the bill had to be paid (about 30,000 baht). I still refused to budge and told him it was the doctor who did the pain block's fault for puncturing my lung. He then said to get the doctor up to the room.

 

Once there I questioned him and said "Dr. ************ did you or did you not puncture my lung? To which his response was "Probably".....the hospital manager was even more aggressive now saying the bill had to be paid before I left the hospital. Then the guilty doctor said "I'll Pay"........the Manager stormed out of the room with his entourage trotting behind him still shouting and complaining.

 

When I got home the first thing I did was contact a solicitor and he came to my house. I told him what had happened and he said that realistically I had no chance of suing them as in Thailand they do not recognize  "Punative Damages" and that I would more than likely waste a considerable amount of money. It cost me 4k just for him to tell me that!

 

So one thing I have learnt from that is that if things go wrong in a Thai hospital that's too bad for me, or any of us really.

 

 

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

So one thing I have learnt from that is that if things go wrong in a Thai hospital that's too bad for me, or any of us really.

Yes, but in the end, they fixed it at no extra charge, so not a bad result.

Punitive damages is a very American thing, most of the world just quietly fix their mistakes, if you survive.

Edited August 23, 2018 by BritManToo

[ThaiPauly]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Yes, but in the end, they fixed it at no extra charge, so not a bad result.

Punitive damages is a very American thing, most of the world just quietly fix their mistakes, if you survive.

Yes you are of course correct, to get away especially from that particular hospital without a bill is unheard of as far as I know......but they nearly done me in and I would not be writing this if not for the emergency doctor's quick thinking.

[Sheryl]

In order to sue you have to be able to show damages. That they screwed up, if there is no lasting damage, = no compensation. true even in the west unless you can show that there was significant interim suffering.

 

People have successfully gotten compensation for malpractice in Thailand but only where there has been some lasting harm and amounts pretty much limited to actual expenses.