UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Explaining to who?

With s bit of luck a court of law.

[aright]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Don’t get ahead of yourself.

 

Farage has some explaining to do wrt why he felt the need to travel directly to the Ecuadorian embassy in London so soon after a meeting with Trump.

 

Farage might yet have need of ‘European Parliament Privilage’ and his colleagues in the European Parliament might get to vote on taking it from him.

 

’You’re not laughing now’ comes to mind. 

Farage has some explaining to do wrt why he felt the need to travel directly to the Ecuadorian embassy in London so soon after a meeting with Trump.

If called before a HoC Parliamentary committee I'm sure Nigel will have to attend and, as always,  give a good account of himself.

When will Juncker and Selmayr appear before an equivalent EU Committee. Sorry I forgot….they are unaccountable aren't they and their work is conducted behind closed doors. 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

In their undieing need to follow chickens across busy rloads, Brexiteers frequently cite WTO as some kind of safety net for trade post Brexit,.

Here is the WTO take on that misconception

 

https://www.ft.com/content/4f0ea43e-a77e-11e8-926a-7342fe5e173f

[kwilco]

Dominic Raab summed up Brexit with his BLT comment.

They've gone from you'll get £350 million per week to, "we have lettuce".

 

They need to check in on the electorate with that ......

Edited August 24, 2018 by kwilco

[tebee]

oops 

 

Britain will not be ready to trade with all countries on WTO rules in March 2019, says WTO chief

 

https://www.ft.com/content/4f0ea43e-a77e-11e8-926a-7342fe5e173f

[tebee]

  

Project Fear of Reality next?

 

How long will it be before sensible people in the UK take over and sort this mess out?

 

A benign coup d'etat? A benevolent dictator to calm things down and right the ship and steer her to safer waters? Boudica Returns, directed by Ridley Scott? Boucida's 'frontal assets' in the DM or the Sun for inspiration?

 

Do the Brits even care anymore, are their expectations so managed they've ceased to think for themselves?

 

Are they so immune and adverse to risk (in their minds) that reality has no longer any impact on their decision making or management, despite the global and domestic experts telling otherwise?

 

Is the promise of a better future negated by the drug- like induced delusion of the fast approaching reality of their precarious self inflicted dead line?

Armageddon awaits Brexit UK- the last, tragic, desperate throw of the dice. 

 

The curtain is closing on the British Empire once and for all- Ireland united, Scotland independent, the world waiting to exact revenge for centuries of global injustice at the hands of a merciless empire built on greed, via WTO delays and complications (bureaucracy, the irony)- just merry old Engerlund wallowing in the glories of past defeats floating off to self imposed non regulated obscurity.

 

Bizarre way to run a country. Shame on you Brits for letting it get so far. Shame on your government for basically telling you to sort it out for yourselves, and trying to abdicate their responsibility by blaming the EU for not giving them what they want, like spoilt 5 year olds.
 

[tebee]

 Imagine that I am a car salesman. A family comes into the showroom. They say they want to buy Model X and strongly hint that they want to do some bargaining. They then spend the next two hours arguing among themselves about which model they really want and the best bargaining tactics, and I get on with dealing with other customers.

 

After a while they come to me and say: "We're prepared to pay Y pounds. If you don't accept our offer, we're off. Think about it quickly, this is your only chance"...and then they go off into a corner of the showroom and get into another huddle for a few more hours of intra-familial arguments, all the while incessantly chanting "we'll walk away! we'll clear off without buying if we don't get a good deal!" at me.

 

Nothing gets decided and they go off home. However, they keep coming back from time to time over a period of many months. I know them only too well anyway because I've been buying all my clothes at their shop for years (there are other shops I could buy from, but they're many miles away... it's a small village). So I don't want to turn them away or offend them too much, as I don't want to lose the nice discounts that they've been giving me over the years...

 

[to be continued... ad nauseam]
 

[tebee]

Brexiters often say imagine how good Brexit could have been for everyone if remain had spent 2 years helping to shape it rather than trying to reverse it.

 

Very true, we could have given helpful advice like 'Don't invoke art. 50 until we know what we want', 'Don't make speeches setting out impossible-to-meet red lines', 'Don't put <deleted> like Johnson & Fox in key roles', and you'd have taken our advice, thanked us & all would be good

[rixalex]

9 hours ago, Stupooey said:

Someone in an earlier post said that the right thing must be seen to be done, and I"m not sure that this is the case with Brexit, as all indications show that it no longer has the support of the majority, if indeed it ever did.

Funny how some people can seamlessly switch from the, "it was only an advisory vote so actually really no need to enact the will of the people", to, "it shouldn't be enacted now because it's no longer the will of the people".

 

Staggering mental contortions going on there.

[My Thai Life]

9 hours ago, Stupooey said:

You keep telling us that you were denied a vote, but do you think you should have been eligible? About 700,000 UK citizens who have worked in the EU for more than 15 years were not given a vote, even though they will feel the effects more than most, as many of them will have to leave their jobs and return to the UK. 

Because the Scottish Independence vote was to determine the long-term future of the country, 16/17 year olds were given the vote, so why not in the EU Referendum?

No, I don't think I should have been eligible. I'm not complaining when I say I wasn't given a vote, I'm just trying to add clarity about my position.

 

Your point about Brit citizens working in the EU:  I have worked in over 25 countries, many of them needed work permits. This is not a hard thing to organise. I assume many of the Brits working in EU countries at present will be able to do the same if necessary.

 

The legal age for voting in Scotland was reduced from 21 to 18 around 1970 I think. I guess it could be argued that the Scottish powers-that-be were trying to amplify the remain vote by reducing age of eligibility for the referendum. Do you think a 16 year old really has enough life experience or other knowledge to be able to make an informed decision about such an important vote? I don't. But that's just my opinion, and I'm happy for others to have different opinions. It's all a bit academic now anyway.

 

cheers, have a good day.

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Funny how some people can seamlessly switch from the, "it was only an advisory vote so actually really no need to enact the will of the people", to, "it shouldn't be enacted now because it's no longer the will of the people".

 

Staggering mental contortions going on there.

 

the easy switching just shows how people strive to be flexible and adaptive in these Brexit times

 

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

No, I don't think I should have been eligible. I'm not complaining when I say I wasn't given a vote, I'm just trying to add clarity about my position.

 

Your point about Brit citizens working in the EU:  I have worked in over 25 countries, many of them needed work permits. This is not a hard thing to organise. I assume many of the Brits working in EU countries at present will be able to do the same if necessary.

 

The legal age for voting in Scotland was reduced from 21 to 18 around 1970 I think. I guess it could be argued that the Scottish powers-that-be were trying to amplify the remain vote by reducing age of eligibility for the referendum. Do you think a 16 year old really has enough life experience or other knowledge to be able to make an informed decision about such an important vote? I don't. But that's just my opinion, and I'm happy for others to have different opinions. It's all a bit academic now anyway.

 

cheers, have a good day.

I take it that you mean amplify the leave (UK) vote?

 

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and the replies have been removed.  

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Yes, you have previously agreed that there is no way flights in and out of the uk would be grounded if there was 'no deal' - but I disagree with the 'implication' you have taken from the BMI CEO's comments.

 

As we all know, in the real world - if there are any extra costs incurred the flights would still be provided, so what was he going on about with the "selling tickets on a wing and a prayer" comment?

 

Unfortunately I wasn't there to ask what he meant and of course you are perfectly free to make up your own interpretation. Why not try and introduce a bit of scare mongering at the same time and pass the buck.

 

"The implication of the CEO of BMI's comment - was suggesting that they may not be able to provide the flights purchased...."

[My Thai Life]

I know there are a few people on this thread who are interested in informed debate rather than mud-slinging and one-liners. I recently quoted and linked an article by Yanis Varoufakis on the EU as a protectionist cartel. Many of us will rememer the butter mountain and the milk lake, well that problem (created by the EU's subsidies to French farmers, which we all pay for every day) hasn't gone away, it's just transmogrified.

 

"European pressure on Africa’s dairy producers intensified in 2015, when the EU lifted its milk quotas. Coinciding with a Russian embargo on European food, it left the Continent awash in milk. With prices at historic lows, EU dairy companies desperately needed new markets to rid themselves of their glut."

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/

 

 

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

There was a thread not that long ago stating that Heathrow Airport (?) was borrowing money in case it had to be grounded for a couple of months in the event of 'no deal'.....

 

I'm most certainly not "making things up" - just providing an uncomfortable reminder of yet another of the (unbelievable, even to remainers) 'scare tactics' employed.....

If you can actually produce an article that states being grounded for a couple of months then by all means bookmark it. Until then we will just treat it as another piece of leaver made up scare mongering. 

[bristolboy]

9 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I know there are a few people on this thread who are interested in informed debate rather than mud-slinging and one-liners. I recently quoted and linked an article by Yanis Varoufakis on the EU as a protectionist cartel. Many of us will rememer the butter mountain and the milk lake, well that problem (created by the EU's subsidies to French farmers, which we all pay for every day) hasn't gone away, it's just transmogrified.

 

"European pressure on Africa’s dairy producers intensified in 2015, when the EU lifted its milk quotas. Coinciding with a Russian embargo on European food, it left the Continent awash in milk. With prices at historic lows, EU dairy companies desperately needed new markets to rid themselves of their glut."

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/

 

 

Any country or trade bloc can be cherry-picked for unfair and counter-productive economic practices. These kind of things are as nothing compared to the huge advantage afforded by frictionless supply lines for manufacturers and passporting rights for financial firms that are members of the EU.

And it's interesting to note that it was a free trade move, namely the lifting of milk quotas, that precipitated the current situation. So maybe the previous regulation regime wasn't such a bad idea?

And the Varoufakis piece was a jeremiad rather than an explication of the problems he alleges plague the EU. And it was also written during the heart of the Greek financial crisis. And that was a Eurozone problem. The UK wisely opted out of the Eurozone.

And since you have so much respect for Varoufakis' opinions, I assume you agree with him that the UK should adopt a Norway-style regime for the next 5 years.

[sandyf]

The brexit damage is well and truly established. The hard brexit mantra of crashing out and walking away is being taken apart and the leavers have their back against the wall. No one can speak now not even the government, the brexit means brexit brigade, without the content being branded as scare tactics.

 

Tory infighting has erupted again as Conservative Brexiteers accused Philip Hammond  of launching another “dodgy Project Fear” with warnings over the economic impact of a no-deal Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/philip-hammond-no-deal-brexit-conservative-tory-party-rees-mogg-eurosceptic-a8505991.html

 

Increased cost to use your credit card, more red tape for businesses, Brits abroad unable to access their pensions – these are the kind of predictions leading Brexiteers would normally dismiss as Project Fear.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-dominic-raab-brexit_uk_5b7ea109e4b0cd327dfa44ca?guccounter=1&amp;guce_referrer_us=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnRoLw&amp;guce_referrer_cs=eMv9XREmzr0Hgclmiu4AxQ

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Why would I want to be a citizen of the EU.

 

I am more than happy being a citizen of the UK.

 

If it were possible I would like to have dual citizenship of the UK and Thailand but in my case it isn.t so I will stick with what I have.

 

Will you be applying?

You already are Bill, comes with holding a passport of a member state. Most of us will not bother trying to hold on to EU citizenship but there are those that will want to. Many have already used their Irish background to claim an Eire passport.

Personally I will regret the loss, my wife has had 3 Schengen visas on the basis of the spouse of an EU citizen, any future applications will be that much more difficult. Certainly won't plan any more trips until the dust has settled.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I know there are a few people on this thread who are interested in informed debate rather than mud-slinging and one-liners. I recently quoted and linked an article by Yanis Varoufakis on the EU as a protectionist cartel. Many of us will rememer the butter mountain and the milk lake, well that problem (created by the EU's subsidies to French farmers, which we all pay for every day) hasn't gone away, it's just transmogrified.

 

"European pressure on Africa’s dairy producers intensified in 2015, when the EU lifted its milk quotas. Coinciding with a Russian embargo on European food, it left the Continent awash in milk. With prices at historic lows, EU dairy companies desperately needed new markets to rid themselves of their glut."

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-milk-scramble-for-africa/

EU has always subsidized farmers in every member country. Farmers are able to produce enough products for EU use and we pay a lower price for the products. There are no billionaire farmers, who would skim the money to their pockets. 

 

That's protecting EU's markets and ability to produce food in case of global disaster.

 

Yes, EU produces more milk products than it can use. Especially after the russian embargo started. People who live in EU countries can enjoy really cheap cheese, which is nice.

 

I can only assume that EU countries are looking for new places to export excess cheese. Asia is my bet for the future.. as there will be time when Asian people learn to eat cheese.

 

If Africa can not compete with European milk and cheese, perhaps they should create functional African Union to be able to protect their own farmers, just like EU is doing. Perhaps UK can be part of that Union to give UK the much needed negotiation power after Brexit is finalised. 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

You already are Bill, comes with holding a passport of a member state. Most of us will not bother trying to hold on to EU citizenship but there are those that will want to. Many have already used their Irish background to claim an Eire passport.

Personally I will regret the loss, my wife has had 3 Schengen visas on the basis of the spouse of an EU citizen, any future applications will be that much more difficult. Certainly won't plan any more trips until the dust has settled.

 

Cyprus is selling passports and citizenships, you or wife could buy one

 

 

 

[ivor bigun]

The British people wanted out on the very first time we wre properly consulted about giving away our sovereignty and self rule. The 1975 referendum was the biggest con trick you could imagine.  No one other than politicians were asking to join. It was imposed. The referendum was about joining a common market. No import tariffs etc. Indeed it was called simply the "Common Market". A clue in the name. There was no mention of open borders, common currency, a European parliament, laws being imposed. Its not hard to goggle the leaflet every address was sent at the time. It said we were joining a market .. not the United States of Europe. Opposition had no money to mailshot similarly. The government refused to pay but could afford the pro pamphlet ! Opposition were warning the true intent was a US of Europe but were dismissed as scare mongerers.  
 
Unbelievably I recently happened upon a site of pro marketeers re the 75 election ... which said its rubbish that the public were not informed it was going to lead to a huge political join up and open Europe because opposition were warning that was what was intended and we were being conned. (The government and pro Europeans denied it) So because we were fooled and conned .. and a few wise people warned us .. we apparently thus DID know and so cant complain. We were conned they admit so cant complain now. Grrrrrrr. Its not me making it up. Its not hard to research the pamphlet and 1975 con trick. 

Before he died Edward Heath the then prime minister admitted that they lied about the common market to the people,the govts new all along what joining would entale. To be honest i believe they lie as much now as they did then

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[rixalex]

21 hours ago, kwilco said:

1.3 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries, according to 2017 estimates from the United Nations (UN). Around 900,000 UK citizens were long-term residents in other EU countries in 2010 and 2011, according to census data across the EU collated by the Office for National Statistics 

And?

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

And?

We're feeling hurt, 'cos the government doesn't care about us....

[kwilco]

10 minutes ago, rixalex said:

And?

This response just typifies the dull unobservant obduracy of Brexiteers.

[kwilco]

39 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Cyprus is selling passports and citizenships, you or wife could buy one

 

 

 

I qualify for at least 3 different passports, but I'm an EU citizen and no-one is allowed to take the......I will fight to the death to keep it.

[billd766]

13 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

With s bit of luck a court of law.

 

Have they broken any law or is it just your opinion?

 

And your opinion, like mine and everybody elses on this forum, is worthless in a court of law.

 

 

9 hours ago, aright said:

Farage has some explaining to do wrt why he felt the need to travel directly to the Ecuadorian embassy in London so soon after a meeting with Trump.

If called before a HoC Parliamentary committee I'm sure Nigel will have to attend and, as always,  give a good account of himself.

When will Juncker and Selmayr appear before an equivalent EU Committee. Sorry I forgot….they are unaccountable aren't they and their work is conducted behind closed doors. 

 

 

 

 

But Nigel Farage is NOT a member of the HoC but an MEP and is not answerable to the HoC no more than you or I are.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, billd766 said:

 

Have they broken any law or is it just your opinion?

 

And your opinion, like mine and everybody elses on this forum, is worthless in a court of law.

 

 

 

But Nigel Farage is NOT a member of the HoC but an MEP and is not answerable to the HoC no more than you or I are.

When I say ‘with a bit of luck to a court of law’.

 

What does that suggest to you?

 

That I am pronouncing his guilt or that I personally believe he’s committed crimes and that I hope to see a court of law judge the matter?

 

This, in case you didn’t know, is a discussion forum in which people discuss stuff. 

[rixalex]

14 minutes ago, kwilco said:

This response just typifies the dull unobservant obduracy of Brexiteers.

So incapable of explaining the point you are making.

[Orac]

Before he died Edward Heath the then prime minister admitted that they lied about the common market to the people,the govts new all along what joining would entale. To be honest i believe they lie as much now as they did then

 

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Either he was terrible at lying or you weren’t paying attention.