UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Isn't the problem rather with the possibility of de-certifiication of UK certifying agencies if Brexit doesn't address that question?

The problem is that the poster and many others do not recognise the problem. Some seem to think that by asking the same question again they will get a different answer, now where have I heard that before.

[My Thai Life]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

Sadly they are...and cannot be ignored

Actually aright and sandyf were discussing CE certification, not integrated supply chains. As aright has pointed out, there will obviously be a difference after the UK exits, but the impact isn't clear at all. As with most of the brexit discussion, it's not something that can be reduced to snappy one-liners on forums. As sandy has pointed out, the UK bodies currently licensed to obtain the CE mark will presumably not be able to do so after the UK exits. But there are many levels and types of certification, and self-certification is possible, depending on the risk profile of the product.

 

Responsibility for CE marking lies with whoever puts the product into the EU market, for example an EU-based manufacturer, the importer or distributor of a product made outside the EU, or an EU-based office of a non-EU manufacturer.

 

Many non-EU manufacturers currently export to the EU, so it's not a problem that should be over-exaggerated. But it does need to be understood (not necessarily by this forum, unless we have UK-to-EU exporters here, which we seem not to have).

 

All UK products currently exported by the UK to the EU have the appropriate level of certification already. Hard to see why new certification would be required for these products.

 

As has been pointed out many times, on exit day1, all regulations and standards will be fully aligned.

 

[tebee]

Reality: Hi, I’m Reality.
PM: Have we met?
Reality: No, but I’ve been trying to contact you for some time
PM: can’t I ignore you?
Reality: not any longer, no
PM: argh, respect, Chequers, blame others, splitting country, unacceptable, very clear etc
Reality: I’m. still. here.

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

Reality: Hi, I’m Reality.
PM: Have we met?
Reality: No, but I’ve been trying to contact you for some time
PM: can’t I ignore you?
Reality: not any longer, no
PM: argh, respect, Chequers, blame others, splitting country, unacceptable, very clear etc
Reality: I’m. still. here.

The reality is very clear, the EU doesn't want to do a deal unless we stay under their dictatorship, there is very little Mrs May can do about that now is there.

[My Thai Life]

Of all the EU team, I did have some respect for Tusk, but his Trumpesque diplomacy on social media was a new low for  the proceedings. I have a feeling that it will only harden the brexit position and add some new recruits to the brexit cause.

 

And to accuse the UK of lying to its electorate when the EU has been built upon a concerted and well-documented campaign of lies to the European people, from Monnet to Juncker, really is a bit too much.

[tebee]

Day 1. EU”You can’t undermine the Single Market.” Theresa “Yes we can.”

 

Day 100. EU “ You can’t undermine the Single Market.” Theresa “Yes we can. ”

 

Day 550. EU”You can’t undermine the Single Market.” Theresa“How dare you spring that on us at this late stage. Show some respect! “

[My Thai Life]

30 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Nonsense missing any evidence. 

A day or two ago Canterbrigian posted a series of quotes made by EU leaders over the last few decades. I myself posted the original statement of deceit from Monnet which formed the playbook for the EU's concerted and deliberate deceit of the last 70 years; and I also posted one of the most recent - from Juncker, echoing his hero Monnet.

 

If those quotes aren't enough for you, there are various histories of the EU which will confirm.

 

Your preceding lines about the EU saying there was never going to be a deal is incorrect. Tusk and Barnier have offered a Free Trade deal. This would deliver on the referendum result. If a leaver had been PM in the UK, we would be most of the way there already. The events in Salzburg merely hasten a Free Trade agreement.

Edited September 22, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Rimmer]

A post with altered quotes has been removed

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

A day or two ago Canterbrigian posted a series of quotes made by EU leaders over the last few decades. I myself posted the original statement of deceit from Monnet which formed the playbook for the EU's concerted and deliberate deceit of the last 70 years; and I also posted one of the most recent - from Juncker, echoing his hero Monnet.

I haven’t seen any evidence posted here that would prove a “concerted and well-documented campaign of lies to the European people”. 

 

1 minute ago, My Thai Life said:

Your preceding lines about the EU saying there was never going to be a deal is incorrect. Tusk and Barnier have offered a Free Trade deal.

Please check again what I wrote. 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

Just now, welovesundaysatspace said:

I haven’t seen any evidence posted here that would prove a “concerted and well-documented campaign of lies to the European people”. 

Well if quotes spanning 70 years from EU founders and leaders all supporting Monnet's original statment of deceit is not enough then maybe you should read some books about the history of the EU.

 

Monnet 1952: “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.”

 

Juncker on the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?” .

 

Juncker on the introduction of the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

Canterbrigian has posted a rich series of quotes from other EU leaders, all based on the same Monnet playbook.

[aright]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Actually aright and sandyf were discussing CE certification, not integrated supply chains. As aright has pointed out, there will obviously be a difference after the UK exits, but the impact isn't clear at all. As with most of the brexit discussion, it's not something that can be reduced to snappy one-liners on forums. As sandy has pointed out, the UK bodies currently licensed to obtain the CE mark will presumably not be able to do so after the UK exits. But there are many levels and types of certification, and self-certification is possible, depending on the risk profile of the product.

 

Responsibility for CE marking lies with whoever puts the product into the EU market, for example an EU-based manufacturer, the importer or distributor of a product made outside the EU, or an EU-based office of a non-EU manufacturer.

 

Many non-EU manufacturers currently export to the EU, so it's not a problem that should be over-exaggerated. But it does need to be understood (not necessarily by this forum, unless we have UK-to-EU exporters here, which we seem not to have).

 

All UK products currently exported by the UK to the EU have the appropriate level of certification already. Hard to see why new certification would be required for these products.

 

As has been pointed out many times, on exit day1, all regulations and standards will be fully aligned.

 

Thank you for a well crafted answer. 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by aright

[Orac]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Well if quotes spanning 70 years from EU founders and leaders all supporting Monnet's original statment of deceit is not enough then maybe you should read some books about the history of the EU.

 

Monnet 1952: “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually lead to federation.”

 

Juncker on the Lisbon treaty: “Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?” .

 

Juncker on the introduction of the Euro: "We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.”

 

Canterbrigian has posted a rich series of quotes from other EU leaders, all based on the same Monnet playbook.

 

A secret plan hatched by Claude Monnet in 1952 to turn Europe into a federation through stealth. I think you need to look back a few years earlier.

 

 

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

The problem is that the poster and many others do not recognise the problem. Some seem to think that by asking the same question again they will get a different answer, now where have I heard that before.

It would be very helpful if you could identify the post in which you answered the question. It would save you a lot of muttering and me a lot of  time. Post number please.

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs" 

 

[dick dasterdly]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

Despite the fact the entire EU leadership says it isn't?

At the end of the day, I'm pretty sure that none of us trust 'politician talk' - and know that it's always 'spin' to suit their cause.... ☹️

 

To look on the bright side, it's the one thing for which we can thank Mandelson!  He (in combination with blair) is the reason why 'political spin' is an immediately understood reference.

Edited September 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[Jip99]

Had an interesting discussion with a former colleague - a retired very senior bank manager.

He and his wife both voted ‘remain’.

He is now incensed at the way the remain side have whinged and whined and not respected the democratic vote of the people. He is also unhappy about the negativity from the EU beaurocrats. 

They would both vote ‘leave’ if there was a second referendum.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

The reality is very clear, the EU doesn't want to do a deal unless we stay under their dictatorship, there is very little Mrs May can do about that now is there.

True - but I'm still of the opinion that may is looking for a reasonable excuse for a way to come up with a 'leave, in name only' - 'deal'.

 

Having said this, I hope that I'm proven wrong.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Of all the EU team, I did have some respect for Tusk, but his Trumpesque diplomacy on social media was a new low for  the proceedings. I have a feeling that it will only harden the brexit position and add some new recruits to the brexit cause.

 

And to accuse the UK of lying to its electorate when the EU has been built upon a concerted and well-documented campaign of lies to the European people, from Monnet to Juncker, really is a bit too much.

I share your disillusion when it comes to various politicians as I used to think Merkel was a 'reasonable' voice.  And then she came up with the open borders policy for 'refugees', without any thought as how to ensure whether or not they were genuine refugees ☹️.

 

Agree entirely with your second para.

Edited September 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[vogie]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

True - but I'm still of the opinion that may is looking for a reasonable excuse for a way to come up with a 'leave, in name only' - 'deal'.

 

Having said this, I hope that I'm proven wrong.

May is getting pulled in every direction possible, she is trying to please everybody and she is ending up pleasing no-one. I can't see Parliament agreeing to any proposal she offers, I just feel she is going through the motions and waiting for the inevibility of a no deal. But I'm sure there will be many more surprises to hit us yet, there seems to be more twists and turns than a cheap garden hose.

 

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

True - but I'm still of the opinion that may is looking for a reasonable excuse for a way to come up with a 'leave, in name only' - 'deal'.

 

Having said this, I hope that I'm proven wrong.

 

I agree with you....almost the inevitable price of a remainer leading the exit from the EU.

 

Whilst it is not exactly what I wanted, I voted to leave so that is what I will get.

 

As there was no definitive blueprint for ‘leave’ then I have to accept what the elected politicians conclude as a ‘deal’. 

 

May is, and always was, in an invidious position. Without a predetermined EU blueprint to accompany Article 50 (I thought there would be one, either in Brussels or in Cameron’s safe) she cannot possibly satisfy the wide spectrum of leave voters...... some want to repatriate almost any immigrant (from Syria or Europe) whilst others want a close ongoing relationship with Europe without the control from Brussels.

 

Whatever the final deal no one will be 100% happy. 

 

I suppose really we should be. The future relationship with the EU will be shaped/honed/amended by the government of the day. That government will succeed or fail on how it manages that process.

 

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

May is getting pulled in every direction possible, she is trying to please everybody and she is ending up pleasing no-one. I can't see Parliament agreeing to any proposal she offers, I just feel she is going through the motions and waiting for the inevibility of a no deal. But I'm sure there will be many more surprises to hit us yet, there seems to be more twists and turns than a cheap garden hose.

 

'No deal' will not be acceptable to Parliament or the people (I would guess 70/30 if a poll were held).  perhaps, just as importantly in shaping events, it wouldn't be tolerated by the EU.

 

PM to resign, new elections, Brexit shelved or soft Brexit would be my guess.

 

Watching this Government is like watching a long, slow death.

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by mommysboy

[Guest]

4 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Of all the EU team, I did have some respect for Tusk, but his Trumpesque diplomacy on social media was a new low for  the proceedings. I have a feeling that it will only harden the brexit position and add some new recruits to the brexit cause.

 

And to accuse the UK of lying to its electorate when the EU has been built upon a concerted and well-documented campaign of lies to the European people, from Monnet to Juncker, really is a bit too much.

EU has patiently waited for UK to get it's act together. UK failed.

 

Now EU has started to say what we all think about the mess in the UK.

 

If this turns British people towards hard brexit, so be it. It doesn't matter anymore. Brexit is likely to be a huge failure for both sides and will create huge separation between EU and UK. That also doesn't matter anymore. UK will move towards Trumpland and EU will continue its own European course.

 

[dick dasterdly]

53 minutes ago, aright said:

It would be very helpful if you could identify the post in which you answered the question. It would save you a lot of muttering and me a lot of  time. Post number please.

"Can you point to the business communities world wide who will stop dealing with the EU because of these costs" 

 

Couldn't agree more!

 

I can understand why the system was changed to prevent over-long quotes - but it's even worse nowadays trying to go back to find the original post that started the 'discussion'.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I agree with you....almost the inevitable price of a remainer leading the exit from the EU.

 

Whilst it is not exactly what I wanted, I voted to leave so that is what I will get.

 

As there was no definitive blueprint for ‘leave’ then I have to accept what the elected politicians conclude as a ‘deal’. 

 

May is, and always was, in an invidious position. Without a predetermined EU blueprint to accompany Article 50 (I thought there would be one, either in Brussels or in Cameron’s safe) she cannot possibly satisfy the wide spectrum of leave voters...... some want to repatriate almost any immigrant (from Syria or Europe) whilst others want a close ongoing relationship with Europe without the control from Brussels.

 

Whatever the final deal no one will be 100% happy. 

 

I suppose really we should be. The future relationship with the EU will be shaped/honed/amended by the government of the day. That government will succeed or fail on how it manages that process.

 

Whilst it is not exactly what I wanted, I voted to leave so that is what I will get.

 

At any cost? I doubt it very much.  You wanted it all and very likely will get nothing!

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'No deal' will not be acceptable to Parliament or the people (I would guess 70/30 if a poll were held).

 

 

I'm not too sure about that, the EUs intransigence is allienating some of the remainers, even this mornings Guardian is saying this.

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

May is getting pulled in every direction possible, she is trying to please everybody and she is ending up pleasing no-one. I can't see Parliament agreeing to any proposal she offers, I just feel she is going through the motions and waiting for the inevibility of a no deal. But I'm sure there will be many more surprises to hit us yet, there seems to be more twists and turns than a cheap garden hose.

 

Then why did she agree to the eu's agenda - i.e. talk about money first, trade the last item on the agenda?

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

Whilst it is not exactly what I wanted, I voted to leave so that is what I will get.

 

At any cost? I doubt it very much.  You wanted it all and very likely will get nothing!

 

I will get EXACTLY what I voted for...... departure from the EU on a deal that May will signup to.

 

 

If you think for one moment that that will not happen you are deluded.

 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, dick dasterdly said:

Then why did she agree to the eu's agenda - i.e. talk about money first, trade the last item on the agenda?

Because she's a useless negotiator and a remainer to boot, sorry, it's the best I can come up with. ?

[mommysboy]

Just now, vogie said:

I'm not too sure about that, the EUs intransigence is allienating some of the remainers, even this mornings Guardian is saying this.

Many more understand that this is a weak government, with a weak leader, and that the Tory party is deeply divided. They also are coming to understand that Brexit was mis-sold- Macron just told it the way it was.

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

I will get EXACTLY what I voted for...... departure from the EU on a deal that May will signup to.

 

 

If you think for one moment that that will not happen you are deluded.

 

Parliament will vote it down! It stands no chance.  People just don't want it. 

 

 

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Many more understand that this is a weak government, with a weak leader, and that the Tory party is deeply divided. They also are coming to understand that Brexit was mis-sold- Macron just told it the way it was.

I agree with you about the weak leader, but let us thank our lucky stars that the tuther lot are not in power.