UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Stupooey]

55 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Then why didn't you bring it up before the referendum?

 

I am opposed to referenda as a matter of principle, so I was opposed to this one. When it was announced, I was opposed to the simple majority element. I also believed that the electoral roll should have been amended to take into account the different circumstances compared to an election. My other points I was probably not aware of at the time, or they had not yet come to light. But as an individual, particularly one living in Thailand, what could I do about it? I did my bit by choosing not to vote, since as a pensioner with no intention of returning to the UK to live, I felt I had no moral right to influence the long-term future of the country. And, to be honest, along with just about everyone else I expected Remain to prevail in the vote.

In my original post, I did say "in hindsight".

[vinny41]

17 minutes ago, oilinki said:

""The EU project has failed", says pro-Kremlin media. Don't be deceived. "

foodwatch is a European non-profit consumer organisation that has been fighting for safe, healthy and affordable food for all people since 2002. foodwatch operates at the national and European levels and has offices in Germany, France and the Netherlands. More about foodwatch: www.foodwatch.org/en/about-foodwatch 

Drop the ball  there old bean

Edited October 12, 2018 by vinny41
spelling

[mommysboy]

Just a quick resume regarding promises:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, oilinki said:

Patriotism sure has funny ways to present itself these days. 

 

"I rather become torso, than be friends with my neighbours" - Tory Brexiters

Is that your personal quote?

[mommysboy]

15 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Wow the survey was so detailed they couldn't defined the number of people that took part

We asked 917 members of the British public, in a survey fielded in February and March 2017,

and we approached the same people that we surveyed in February 2017, managing to repeat the survey with 752 of them. We added a further 164 new respondents to our sample, giving a total of 916 participants for the 2018 round of the study. This second round occurred in April and May 2018,

It seems the groups that publish this survey don't have the balls to release the survey questions ask or the direct results of the survey before the figures are doctored to suit their own outcome

OK. Let's try a bit of common sense- given 48% of the Brexit vote wanted to remain in the single market, it's hardly a leap of faith to imagine that 60% of the vote will favour a 'soft' Brexit.

 

 

 

 

[nauseus]

55 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Now listen very carefully as I will say this only once.

 

The whole point of co-operation and union is that it's not a zero sum game. When we work collectively, we gain more than we put in. The sum of co-operation effort is more than the sum of individuals. 

 

That is the reason why we don't have personal security guards, but we rely on city / country police to deal with the gangsters. That's the reason why we don't each own our own personal fire departments, or militaries. 

 

We form communities, let it be families, cities, countries or group of countries to push some of the common tasks to be shared by others, instead of us having to do those tasks by our selves. That's optimisation in life. 

 

On EU level this means that EU is able to do far better trade deals with other countries, than any of us could do individually. EU can do standards (which annoy some), which are approved by all of our countries. Pharmacy standards is a good example of this. Accepted once, allowed to sell in all countries.

 

Science co-operation is one example. It's worth to do the expensive research together, than have 28 smaller budget scientific groups trying to research the same subject at the same time, individually. 

 

EU protects us, individuals quite a lot. This means that the food what is sold in EU is good quality. The workers rights are not been abused. etc. etc.

 

Now that UK is leaving EU, there is a fear that for example those workers rights will be slashed in UK to make UK products cheaper compared to EU products. EU will, rightfully, not allow these products to enter our markets because to compete with the prices, we would have to reduce the workers rights the same way as UK does. 

 

EU is far more than just money for us. 

Yes, it's money for nearly everyone else.

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

 

Rather a heavyweight, and a Tory too. 

 

Enough!

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

OK. Let's try a bit of common sense- given 48% of the Brexit vote wanted to remain in the single market, it's hardly a leap of faith to imagine that 60% of the vote will favour a 'soft' Brexit.

 

 

 

 

Hardly, more like a leap of hope!

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

OK. Let's try a bit of common sense- given 48% of the Brexit vote wanted to remain in the single market, it's hardly a leap of faith to imagine that 60% of the vote will favour a 'soft' Brexit.

 

 

 

 

In forty years time when there another referendum and everyone is asked the question we will know the results

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

In forty years time when there another referendum and everyone is asked the question we will know the results

   Trade with the EU will not be harmed. “Our trade will almost certainly continue with the EU on similar to current circumstances…The reality is that the hard-headed, pragmatic businessmen on the continent will do everything to ensure that trade with Britain continues uninterrupted.” David Davis, speech, 26 May 2016

 

“The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave”. Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave?

 

“there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market”, Boris Johnson, The Telegraph, 26 June 2016

 

"It should be win-win for us and it will be if we vote to leave and we can maintain free trade, stop sending money and also have control of our borders", Michael Gove, BBC, 8 May 2016

 

“The idea that our trade will suffer…is silly”, Vote Leave, What Happens When We Vote Leave

 

 

 

“Many of the things they [the Leave Campaign] said were absolutely pie in the sky and if you look at any possible deal we’re going to get and compare it to what people were promised, there will be a gaping gap. Now that is a reason why people might want a second referendum,” 

 

  Sir John Major.  Former Conservative PM.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by mommysboy

[Guest]

Promises, promises. What did the Leave leaders talk about single market and Norwegian models prior Brexit vote? Well, that was their idea of Brexit at the time.

 

 

[kwilco]

Yet more "project fear" turning into "project fact" ....

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/major-motorway-closes-overnight-six-13402434.amp?utm_source=whatsapp.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

[mommysboy]

57 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Yet more "project fear" turning into "project fact" ....

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/major-motorway-closes-overnight-six-13402434.amp?utm_source=whatsapp.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&__twitter_impression=true

 

Seems to me it's a done deal!

[tebee]

The madness continues :-

 

UK government advice to companies like Airbus, Allianz, E.ON, SAP, and Schneider Electric in tech notices out today..... move your headquarters out of the United Kingdom to an EU member state.

 

They may also want to consider whether they wish to move their seat of incorporation to another EU member state. They will need to consider the relevant timeframes for either course of action

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/structuring-your-business-if-theres-no-brexit-deal--2/structuring-your-business-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

The madness continues :-

 

UK government advice to companies like Airbus, Allianz, E.ON, SAP, and Schneider Electric in tech notices out today..... move your headquarters out of the United Kingdom to an EU member state.

 

They may also want to consider whether they wish to move their seat of incorporation to another EU member state. They will need to consider the relevant timeframes for either course of action

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/structuring-your-business-if-theres-no-brexit-deal--2/structuring-your-business-if-theres-no-brexit-deal

 

interesting read  in the morning

 

I am a bit confused by the language used, deal versus no deal

I can relate to no deal Brexit, but since there presently is no deal I can not relate to deal Brexit, dunno what deal is

 

Seems to me that the UK  gov knows  exactly what a deal is since they can use that as a discriminator in many different relations

 

[melvinmelvin]

domestic system???

 

on gov.uk I read the UK position paper on Galileo,

towards the end, it  says that unless so and so can be met

 

UK will as an alternative consider developing a domestic system for her needs

(it  also says that such a system is economically viable)

 

what does domestic mean in this context?

 

developed in uk?

for exclusive use by uk?

covering uk territories only?

 

or what?

 

 

[Stupooey]

10 hours ago, mommysboy said:

TORY TRIPE!

I fail to understand how your response relates to my post - perhaps you didn't read it. To reiterate, many posters have expressed an opinion that a Corbyn government would be a disaster. I profoundly disagree with that view, but I was merely pointing out that the potential for 'disaster' would only exist if such a government had absolute sovereignty, i.e. outside the EU.

[Grouse]

13 hours ago, adammike said:

The EUs position from day one is that there will be no winners from brexit,also they will do everything to protect the single market.

As I have stated before, there will be no overall winners. There will be a Nash Equilibrium with both sides being somewhat harmed. There will NOT be a no deal outcome though. End result will be a modification of the Norway solution.

 

Best solution, however, would be to stop Brexit completely retaining all exiting rebates and opt outs and start afresh to modify the entire EU system. 

[whatsupdoc]

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/10/12/week-in-review-radical-truth-in-the-brexit-lying-game

[tebee]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

domestic system???

 

on gov.uk I read the UK position paper on Galileo,

towards the end, it  says that unless so and so can be met

 

UK will as an alternative consider developing a domestic system for her needs

(it  also says that such a system is economically viable)

 

what does domestic mean in this context?

 

developed in uk?

for exclusive use by uk?

covering uk territories only?

 

or what?

 

 

They can't develop an alternative to Galileo if if they want to and are prepared to throw at it the multiple billion pounds that would be necessary to develop it.

 

They haven't got a frequency allocated they can use. The international body that allocates frequencies won't give them one because if they did ever individual country would want one and there are nothing like enough to go around already. Only big international collaborations stand any chance of getting a new frequency band allocated - the big superpowers have claimed their own already.

 

They want it for future road pricing .

       

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

As I have stated before, there will be no overall winners. There will be a Nash Equilibrium with both sides being somewhat harmed. There will NOT be a no deal outcome though. End result will be a modification of the Norway solution.

 

Best solution, however, would be to stop Brexit completely retaining all exiting rebates and opt outs and start afresh to modify the entire EU system. 

Normally I would agree with you on this, but in this case I think you underestimate the incompetence of the current UK government. No deal is what will happen by default and we could just drift along to April arguing amongst ourselves .

 

There are also powerful factions on the more extreme left and  right that that see nodeal and the resulting chaos as a chance to rebuild British society from scratch as a socialist/libertarian utopia.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Best solution, however, would be to stop Brexit completely retaining all exiting rebates and opt outs and start afresh to modify the entire EU system. 

Fantasia

 

11 minutes ago, tebee said:

There are also powerful factions on the more extreme left and  right that that see nodeal and the resulting chaos as a chance to rebuild British society from scratch as a socialist/libertarian utopia.

Paranoia

[My Thai Life]

6 hours ago, tebee said:

They may also want to consider whether they wish to move their seat of incorporation to another EU member state. They will need to consider the relevant timeframes for either course of action

As you are a SME owner operator I assume you are aware that a "seat of incorporation" is simply the registered office - it's not business operations.

[tebee]

10 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

As you are a SME owner operator I assume you are aware that a "seat of incorporation" is simply the registered office - it's not business operations.

Indeed, but it will also be where they pay their corporation taxes.

 

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Fantasia

 

Paranoia

1st Rescinding Article 50 might be the only option left open to us as we run out of time and get closer and closer to brexit day - there is only about 100 working days left now!

 

2nd What exactly do you think ERG and Corbyn's agendas are? Remember post-brexit they will have Henry 8th powers

 

[sandyf]

Another touch of reality.

 

Trade agreements enjoyed with scores of other countries, through EU membership, will “cease to apply” if the UK crashes out of the EU next March.The government said it would attempt to replicate the deals “as soon as possible thereafter” – but admitted those “third countries” would have leverage to demand better terms. Until fresh agreements could be struck, exports and imports to these countries would fall under World Trade Organisation rules – and be subject to tariffs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-no-deal-trade-lost-12-per-cent-government-gdp-eu-a8580926.html

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

Indeed, but it will also be where they pay their corporation taxes.

Not necessarily, it depends entirely on their corporate structure and inter-office accounting procedures.

 

The advice given is good basic advice: any firm wishing to do business inside the EU will need an EU registered office. For firms merely exporting to the EU it's not necessary.

 

Given that only a very small proportion of SMEs trade with the EU anyway, it's hardly earth-shattering. Larger businesses, corporations etc will in most cases already already have EU offices.

 

You seem to want to turn every minor piece of news into a crisis.

 

 

[My Thai Life]

16 minutes ago, tebee said:

1st Rescinding Article 50 might be the only option left open to us as we run out of time and get closer and closer to brexit day - there is only about 100 working days left now!

 

2nd What exactly do you think ERG and Corbyn's agendas are? Remember post-brexit they will have Henry 8th powers

 

> Revoking A50 is possible according to Lord Kerr, who drafted it, but not according to some legal opinion. The EU is currently deliberating on the legality of this. It's not going to happen anyway: no senior politican has suggested this; it only exists in the wishful-thinking of a few remainers.

 

> Now you seem to have moved on from paranoia to hysteria.

Edited October 13, 2018 by My Thai Life

[melvinmelvin]

40 minutes ago, tebee said:

They can't develop an alternative to Galileo if if they want to and are prepared to throw at it the multiple billion pounds that would be necessary to develop it.

 

They haven't got a frequency allocated they can use. The international body that allocates frequencies won't give them one because if they did ever individual country would want one and there are nothing like enough to go around already. Only big international collaborations stand any chance of getting a new frequency band allocated - the big superpowers have claimed their own already.

 

They want it for future road pricing .

       

ta for that, I was more interested in what UK mean by domestic, or what UK think they want.

 

I know how the international stuff works, not quite as you describe, but never mind

the international body, ITU, endeavours to ensure that freq are available for relevant services (not countries or systems)

next step is that ITU member states with ambitions must register such in MIFR, master int freq register.

 

anyway, there are 4 global systems around, GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO, BEIDOU (CHINA)

GPS (USA) AND GLONASS (RUSSIA) has been around since late 70s early 80s, GALILEO (France I would think) since 90s,

BEIDOU since ? cant remember off hand

note, these are linked to countries, ITU doesn't deal with companies or collaborations - only member states

 

these services operate in fairly low freq bands, congested bands, sought after bands,

if there are resources  available, UK may use them,

if not UK faces a tremendous challenge

 

there are freq resources vacant for SATs in much higher freq bands but in order to use these resources

a minimum of 15 years of intensive research would be needed

 

alternatively, convince ITU radiocommunication conference (treaty) to allocate more freq resources in lower bands,

this would be uphill work, would initially be flatly rejected by several member states,

but could be done

 

now,

to make such a global system; 10 billion quid give or take a bob or 2

and 10 years if it goes smoothly

 

every odd country here and there is not in the business for building such systems,

too expensive

too time-consuming

and they don't have the need for it - and they realize that

 

(btw,

 the only man in the world (I reckon) who could possibly guide such an effort by the UK to fruition

 will be out of work in January 2019, tough one - he is French)

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Normally I would agree with you on this, but in this case I think you underestimate the incompetence of the current UK government. No deal is what will happen by default and we could just drift along to April arguing amongst ourselves .

 

There are also powerful factions on the more extreme left and  right that that see nodeal and the resulting chaos as a chance to rebuild British society from scratch as a socialist/libertarian utopia.

jeeez,

tebee, too many neg vibes at the start of a pleasant weekend