UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

What, until they get the result they want?

 

Having a second vote because yous didn't win the first vote isn't really democratic is it? My side didn't win in the referendum in the early 70's but did we bitch until we got a second vote? Nah, we just  got on with what the democratic voters wanted. Job done.

The EU is not democratic but you don't seem to be calling for change on how they elect their leaders.

I would alternatively suggest that, having a second vote because what was promised in the first vote is not deliverable, is instead the epiphany of what democracy should be.

Edited October 15, 2018 by tebee

[kwilco]

History is an anathema to most Brexiteers......

We need to learn from history..... not WW 1 or  2 or even a simplistic view of English history.
We should be looking at the last big threat to a union and how they dealt with it.
That would be the American Civil war ... In which a small minority tried to leave the U.S. union and were brought back in line by the majority.

 

Take a look at Tory history too.....

 

 

[Bluespunk]

2 hours ago, Rally123 said:

What, until they get the result they want?

 

Having a second vote because yous didn't win the first vote isn't really democratic is it? My side didn't win in the referendum in the early 70's but did we bitch until we got a second vote? Nah, we just  got on with what the democratic voters wanted. Job done.

The EU is not democratic but you don't seem to be calling for change on how they elect their leaders.

There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. 

 

I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one. 

 

Edit: The EU is perfectly democratic. 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by Bluespunk

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

 

 

 

 

The stupid political class should have done what we voted for and started getting out the day after the referendum vote as they promised. You can't vote on the final deal as we either accept it or leave wiithout a deal then join a less political trading group which the Japanese said we would be welcome in.

 

The 'people's vote' second referendum in fact is nothing more than a ploy for the likes of George Soros Branson the failed Geldof and other billionaires to keep us tied to the undemocratic anti British block. The EU got Ireland to vote 3 times before they came to the 'correct answer'. If remoaners won will any additional vote we go for best of three?

 

They will try to cripple us as if they don't get a deal as they will owe us 7 billion a year in tariffs. As to their threats of no planes flying Spain economy would crash so would Portugal and we control most of the routes to the US so they would be screwed getting anywhere West, plus if we closed the 'land bridge' ( England) the Southern Irish economy would collapse over night as they couldn't get their produce to the EU quick enough. We need more Churchill and less Chamberlain in capitulation.

 

Are you in favour of Brexit?

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

If people want another vote they have every right to call for one. 

 

To refuse this right is anti democratic authoritarianism. 

Of course!

 

Brexiteers could not believe their luck when the referendum went their way. They KNOW that would never happen again. They are terrified of another referendum.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

The Irish border is a non issue, the Guards Irish police and customs regularly carry out inspections ther is a border, and why should we be controlled by the threat of violence if we were to take back our border, how did it work when we joined but Ireland wasn't a member? It's a non issue!! Conveniently accepted by the political EU loving class. Try living in my area full of EU citizens mosT from my experience claiming benefits, virtually no English spoken, it feels like ethnic cleansing by our globalist leaders.

Ethnic cleansing? Of whom? By whom? Where do you live? What are the predominant local languages?

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, tebee said:

The EU does have borders which it controls -albeit indirectly - the customs union, the single market and the Schengen area for starts - it's change of EU law that occurs when when  cross the edges of these and the EU that controls who and what may pass them.  

Quite, EU external borders are controlled locally in conjunction with FRONTEX.

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/agencies/frontex_en

 

When it comes to Ireland it would appear that many are quite ignorant of the role the EU has played.

 

Since 1995 and the first EU-funded peace programme, €1.5 billion has been spent in the North promoting cohesion, and economic development. Over €1 billion in EU financial assistance is to be spent in the current financial period to the end of 2020 in the region, of which €230 million will go to the NI PEACE programme (this is 85 per cent EU-funded) and a further €240 milllion goes to the Interreg programme for Northern Ireland, the Republic, and Scotland.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/meps-to-demand-continued-eu-funding-for-ni-peace-programmes-after-brexit-1.3624646

[Grouse]

8 hours ago, Patriot1066 said:

How many votes do you suggest we have ? If I don't like the result of the next one is it democratic to refuse that.

 

One will be enough to stop this moronic Brexit nonsense.

 

If a super majority had been specified, as is usual for constitutional matters, we would not be in this embarrassing pantomime of self harm. However, the referendum was not binding, regardless of any verbal assurances. I can post the original act if like?

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

how does Amazon, ebay and similar hack  these requirements?

 

Do you consider that the likes of Amazon and ebay would be classed as UK manufacturers?

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, adammike said:

I have started to feel there is a change in the air ,the brexiteers are being called out even by some of the brexit supporting media, not the daily telegraph of course or the daily express (that rag seems to exist in some parallel universe so please don't put up links from it) .There are even the no brexit option being written as a possibility! One thing I saw was the EU may say yes the UK can stay but lose the rebate and other opt outs,It's gonna be a long hard winter for some.

I expect the EU to modify the free movement of people pillar. Not just to remove that leg from the brexiters' stool but to release pressure inside the EU generally 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

One will be enough to stop this moronic Brexit nonsense.

 

If a super majority had been specified, as is usual for constitutional matters, we would not be in this embarrassing pantomime of self harm. However, the referendum was not binding, regardless of any verbal assurances. I can post the original act if like?

So why don't we have another vote if YOU don't like the party voted in Government..?

The present Government is ruling with bought Irish votes.. With your stance on voting then there should have been a second general election, well shouldn't there...?

[tebee]

Ways out if this Brexit mess - 

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2018/10/there-way-out-brexit-mess

[Guest]

Know your Brexit campaigners.. who happen to be Pro Russia. Arron Banks.

 

 

[billd766]

8 hours ago, adammike said:

I have started to feel there is a change in the air ,the brexiteers are being called out even by some of the brexit supporting media, not the daily telegraph of course or the daily express (that rag seems to exist in some parallel universe so please don't put up links from it) .There are even the no brexit option being written as a possibility! One thing I saw was the EU may say yes the UK can stay but lose the rebate and other opt outs,It's gonna be a long hard winter for some.

 

Especially for the EU when the UK contributions stop and they have to try to raise money from the other members.

 

https://www.ft.com/content/3a351276-1761-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/mark-rutte-eu-integration-not-the-answer/

 

AMSTERDAM — A “federal Europe” and “more integration” is not the answer to the EU’s problems, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said in a speech Saturday challenging French President Emmanuel Macron’s vision of a more integrated Europe.

The Dutch prime minister — who was speaking at the annual congress of the Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe (ALDE) — did not name Macron in the speech but at one point indicated his skepticism for the idea of “democratic conventions” that was “coming from France.”

Taken together, the speech is a strong rebuff to Macron’s ambitious and detailed reform agenda, which includes a wide range of policies from introducing a new class of transnational MEPs to the creation of a common budget for the Eurozone.

 

I would have posted one from the Daily Express but you don't seem to like their reporting.

[billd766]

8 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

BREXIT could be over before Christmas. A number of crowdfunded cases pending may block it. A number of Expats in Europe were denied voting in the referendum (3 million in total). This case is going on before the European Court of Justice as the UK broke European Law by denying their rights under European Law that applies to all EU citizens. Another case going before the UK Supreme Court is the UK Government acted in contempt of court over Miller Article 50 case. Article 50 is in 3 parts. Article 50 (1) is the discussion in Parliament and voting to leave (this was not done). Article 50 (2) the Notice of Withdrawal to the EU. This was voted on and passed, but it is Invalid because Article 50 (1) has not been carried out. Article 50 (3) is the UK leaves on the 29 March 2019 with or without a deal only if Article 50 (1) & (2) have been met. Of course, the BrexMoaners won't like this. A Democracy is not a Democracy unless people have a right to change their minds. As many now have done. If the court cases are won then the Referendum will have to be run again and include those who were denied their legal rights. Plus the many new young voters who want to remain in support of their own future. Remainers are not moaning their working hard using real legal Democracy to get the country back to common sense. If Brexiteers think 23 July 2016 can't be changed, then neither can the original Referendum vote of 1975 be change. Thus making the current episode again invalid.

Really?

 

Any expat who was entitled to vote in the UK general Elections was eligible to vote in the referendum, I live in Thailand and got off my arrsse and applied to vote where I was last registered. That was granted and I had a proxy to vote for me.

 

Now if I can do it from Thailand then ANY UK expat in Europe who was qualified could have done so.

 

Just another whining Remoaner.

[tebee]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Really?

 

Any expat who was entitled to vote in the UK general Elections was eligible to vote in the referendum, I live in Thailand and got off my arrsse and applied to vote where I was last registered. That was granted and I had a proxy to vote for me.

 

Now if I can do it from Thailand then ANY UK expat in Europe who was qualified could have done so.

 

Just another whining Remoaner.

Not if you have not been registered to vote at a UK address for more than 15 years.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

One will be enough to stop this moronic Brexit nonsense.

 

If a super majority had been specified, as is usual for constitutional matters, we would not be in this embarrassing pantomime of self harm. However, the referendum was not binding, regardless of any verbal assurances. I can post the original act if like?

"However, the referendum was not binding, regardless of any verbal assurances. I can post the original act if like?"

 

And yet the govt. told the electorate that they would 'enact the referendum result' (or words to that effect).

 

I'm sure another poster can post the relevant part of the govt.'s leaflet - send to every household - if you like?

 

Seems a bit pointless though, as we've had this discussion on the forum many times already....

 

 

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

I would alternatively suggest that, having a second vote because what was promised in the first vote is not deliverable, is instead the epiphany of what democracy should be.

The over-riding fact is the envisaged deal falls well short of what was pledged. If Leavers had not promised the earth in an afternoon then Brexit would have been done.  Simple as that.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by mommysboy

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. 

 

I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one. 

 

Edit: The EU is perfectly democratic. 

 

 

"There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one."

 

NOBODY as far as I know is saying that there can never be another vote - just not before the first vote has been enacted!

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

I would alternatively suggest that, having a second vote because what was promised in the first vote is not deliverable, is instead the epiphany of what democracy should be.

The question on the ballot paper was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU', and the options were very simple - remain or leave.

 

The unexpected result was 'leave', which IS "deliverable" - just not the preferred option of many, particularly politicians and the eu who then came up with 'soft brexit'/'hard brexit'.

 

I do agree that the electorate expected the uk and eu to negotiate sensibly and agree a reasonable (for both sides) trade agreement, which hasn't happened yet as the uk (for some obscure reason....) allowed this to be the last item on the agenda ????.

[mommysboy]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one."

 

NOBODY as far as I know is saying that there can never be another vote - just not before the first vote has been enacted!

A second referendum on Brexit is pointless since it would also be indeterminate in that it would merely be 1-1 if Remain won... best of 3, 5, 7?.  I'm happy to sit with the UK's decision to Leave as being a genuine expression of what people want.

 

Yet we are left with something that is in fact undeliverable because of the pie in the sky promises under which Leave was secured.  Brexit must be shelved.  That's what happens when things go wrong in our own lives, in business, in just about anything where real life shows us it is not possible or nonsensical to continue.

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one."

 

NOBODY as far as I know is saying that there can never be another vote - just not before the first vote has been enacted!

but if the first vote isn't enactable in any form that was envisioned then what can we do?

 

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The question on the ballot paper was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU', and the options were very simple - remain or leave.

 

The unexpected result was 'leave', which IS "deliverable" - just not the preferred option of many, particularly politicians and the eu who then came up with 'soft brexit'/'hard brexit'.

 

I do agree that the electorate expected the uk and eu to negotiate sensibly and agree a reasonable (for both sides) trade agreement, which hasn't happened yet as the uk (for some obscure reason....) allowed this to be the last item on the agenda ????.

But a soft Brexit is deliverable - it's only the governments  red lines that preventing it and nobody voted on those 

[Bluespunk]

24 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"There is nothing undemocratic in calling for a second vote. I’m not calling for a vote on anything. 

Just disagreeing with the authoritarian position that there cannot be one."

 

NOBODY as far as I know is saying that there can never be another vote - just not before the first vote has been enacted!

No reason there cannot be another vote before brexit.

[mommysboy]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

but if the first vote isn't enactable in any form that was envisioned then what can we do?

 

Conclude it can't be done and ditch it.  That is the obvious solution because that is what happens in life, happens in boardrooms up and down the country, happens in families millions of times a year.

 

Quite why Brexit is immune from the fundamental realities of life is beyond me- it's not the holy grail.

 

 

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

But a soft Brexit is deliverable - it's only the governments  red lines that preventing it and nobody voted on those 

But a soft Brexit is not Brexit. David Cameron said before the the referendum that it meant leaving the single market, everybody was well informed no matter what remainers believe was said.

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

But a soft Brexit is deliverable - it's only the governments  red lines that preventing it and nobody voted on those 

It is, yes.  Time and again opinion polls show this is also the majority preference.  

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

But a soft Brexit is not Brexit. David Cameron said before the the referendum that it meant leaving the single market, everybody was well informed no matter what remainers believe was said.

Where exactly did he say this and was it official policy - I remember one of the major criticisms of the referendum being that the type of Brexit was undefined, allowing supporters to claim the freedoms of a hard  brexit with the economics of a soft one. 

[My Thai Life]

10 minutes ago, tebee said:

but if the first vote isn't enactable in any form that was envisioned then what can we do?

But it is enactable, either via a free trade deal solution as proposed by Barnier-Tusk and Johnson & co, or via a no deal exit which gets to the global free trade solution faster albeit with more short term pain.

 

The irony is that Labour, by their commitment to vote down any deal, is making a no deal more likely.

 

Chequers doesn't deliver on the referendum and neither does the EEA option.

 

Futher referendums, revoking A50, and the like are pie in the sky.

 

 

[billd766]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

It is, yes.  Time and again opinion polls show this is also the majority preference.  

 

And how many times have the polls been wrong?

 

Right up to the referendum they were forecasting the the UK would stay in the EU.

 

You can get any poll result you want by simply supplying the answer you want, picking the right questions and the right audience.

 

I gave up on believing in polls years ago.

 

They are much like the papers and I rarely read them either. One will say something and another the complete opposite.