UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

This is a good (albeit easy) observation to make on TVF, Vogie. It is an issue that is present across the British population too, particularly with certain demographics, namely the young - generally uneducated and wholly ignorant of all that they decry. There are a fair few confused people, well represented on here, who are all too willing to cow-tow to the EU and all its obvious (and more covert) maladies, and who clearly have a burning sense of self loathing or perhaps even a masochistic streak ???

 

It is hardly surprising however, our own culture has been deliberately eroded to such an extent over the last few decades that many will claim there is no such thing as 'Britishness' or 'English values' etc. and that this is and has always been a fallacy., 

To those people I say learn the history of your own country and the pioneering effect Britain had around the western world in particular for centuries in areas such as liberty, the rule of law, economics, banking, international trade, military endeavour, massively in literature and of course in invention - in creation, within the sciences and mathematics. These contributions and the people who pioneered them have shaped much of our culture, equally you could argue that our wonderful language and the independent, canny and humorous spirit of the fine peoples from all classes and all corners of the UK have too. To say that no such culture exists or ever has is a real travesty, especially when the people who so savagely attack it are themselves the antecedents of a heroic generation who laid down their lives and liberty to save this so called 'fictional culture' in which we now reside, freely, I might add.

 

Disgraceful behaviour if you ask me. Also, there is nothing racist, fascistic, xenophobic or nationalistic about stating these facts, it doesn't mean in any way that I or anyone else who espouses them have less respect or appreciation of foreign people or cultures, it's just an expression of the truth of history and our pride in it. After all, we have a right to be proud of our forebears, where pride is derivable of course. As well as understanding the multitude of flaws and evils of areas of our past too, which I think most informed men and women are these days, without question.

However, expressing any form of patriotism or affection for one's own national history is now totally taboo and uniformly sniggered at by a class of people who believe themselves 'better' for simply holding an opposed opinion. Halo polishing I believe it's called. ???? 

 

This has come about for many reasons, not least the neo-liberal 'intelligentsia' of the UK being increasingly unable to stomach the idea of Englishness or Britishness. These chattering classes have found it to be rather vulgar and embarrassing for over a century now. Why that is, is a much broader and very interesting topic.

 

'In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings.'

 

'It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box.'

 

G.Orwell's words are still as true today (if not more so) than they were 70 years ago. He had these prats weighed up a long time ago.

 

Brexit may be a shambles and the UK may be a laughing stock for now, but it will pale in comparison with what is coming to the continent and will vindicate our vote to leave.

Once the crud really starts to hit the fan, all people from over the EU will realise, too late, what a huge disaster it has developed into.  

 

 

More than a bit OTT....!

 

Which is a shame, as I've appreciated many of your previous posts.

 

But it's made your 'sympathies' very clear - which is not even close (mostly) to my 'point of view'.

Edited October 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[candide]

21 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought.

Your post is quite instructing. I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...

Anyway, I am just wondering: has the British intelligentsia ever been non-europeanized since the time the Kingdom was created?

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

More than a bit OTT....!

 

Which is a shame, as I've appreciated many of your previous posts.

 

But it's made your 'sympathies' very clear - which is not even close (mostly) to my 'point of view'.

Fair enough, that's your opinion, which of course you're entitled to. I might have a more traditionalist opinion than some on here. But that is my opinion, and the fact that we hold different ones is natural enough and fine by me.

 

I'm not sure where you think my 'sympathies' lie, or why you believe this to be OTT either? You make it sound like I just wrote down some kind of nazi diatribe ???? So, please, explain why you feel that way, I'm interested (to some extent) to know why.  

 

 

[dunroaming]

12 minutes ago, tebee said:

Possibly because it is completely unable to find a way of delivering that mandate without making itself unelectable in the future.

When the referendum was called it was an opportunity for various ambitious people to use it to challenge the government of the day, well at least get rid of Cameron and Osborne.  So the two sides were formed and went about convincing the people that their way was the best. The remain side loaded their cannons with warnings of chaos and economic hardships and the Brexit side sat down and made a list of claims and promises that they thought would win the people over.

 

In reality both sides were plucking their selling pitches out of thin air and both made predictions that have proved to be wrong (so far).  It cost Cameron his political career and left the government with the impossible task of fulfilling promises made without any idea of the consequences.  The orchestrators of Brexit ran for the hills as soon as the vote went their way leaving Theresa May with the poisoned chalice. Amazing that the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM backed May for the PM ship knowing she was a remainer rather than backing Andrea Leadsom (who also stood) who was a passionate Brexiteer.

 

So here we are two years on and only now is the reality sinking in to many of the voters.  The list of mistakes along the way is depressingly long and we are still no nearer getting a deal that will be beneficial to the country. It all leaves a bad taste in your mouth and Britain is worse off for it.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

Just now, candide said:

Your post is quite instructing. I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...

Anyway, I am just wondering: has the British intelligentsia ever been non-europeanized since the time the Kingdom was created?

Another attack, wooah, two in quick succession, must be doing something right..? But please who is the 'you know'? you half-heartedly reference above? It couldn't be, who I think it is, could it?? I do hope not.

 

I think it is fair to say if you go back to the earlier times of the Union there was much less of a 'europeanised' feel to the UK and its intelligentsia yes, definitely so. I'm not suggesting that being europeanised is in all ways a bad thing either, but I think it odd, as Orwell clearly thought so too, that instruction was taken from abroad by a certain class of people who felt a similarly inverse sense of shame about their own culture and traditions.  Orwell thought it an oddity in his time. I am echoing his sentiments as I believe they hold true today and are similarly relevant now.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Fair enough, that's your opinion, which of course you're entitled to. I might have a more traditionalist opinion than some on here. But that is my opinion, and the fact that we hold different ones is natural enough and fine by me.

 

I'm not sure where you think my 'sympathies' lie, or why you believe this to be OTT either? You make it sound like I just wrote down some kind of nazi diatribe ???? So, please, explain why you feel that way, I'm interested (to some extent) to know why.  

 

 

It boils down to you being a 'nationalist', whereas I'm not patriotic.

 

I intended no insult.

 

'Being specific', would boil down to all the 'nationalistic' stuff.  It's just not my 'cup of tea'.

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

Everyone accepts the opinion given 28 months ago. Thanks!

 

Next!

Care to define 'everyone'?

 

 

[whatsupdoc]

Your post is quite instructing. I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...
Anyway, I am just wondering: has the British intelligentsia ever been non-europeanized since the time the Kingdom was created?

And how about the intelligentsia of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands...... All countries with their own rich histories, all in Europe, and now all working together in the EU.
Why is the UK any different from those countries?


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[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

And how about the intelligentsia of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands...... All countries with their own rich histories, all in Europe, and now all working together in the EU.
Why is the UK any different from those countries?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

You believe those countries work together ? ????????

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

"it does not appear to be what the majority of the nation wants any longer".  Pure opinion - but I agree with the other point you've raised -

 

"But the point is they haven't!  And the envisaged deal falls well short of what is required."

Says it all .....☹️.

 

 

 

The envisaged deal falls well short of the mandate.  If this was not the case, there would be no argument.  If this was not the case the Government would not be facing such staunch opposition on all sides, and even within its own party.

 

The Brexiteers on this forum seem not to be able to understand that the Brexit they want is in fact a minority position.  

[dick dasterdly]

25 minutes ago, candide said:

Your post is quite instructing. I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...

Anyway, I am just wondering: has the British intelligentsia ever been non-europeanized since the time the Kingdom was created?

Like a previous poster, I too have no idea who you are referring to when it comes to "I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...".

 

Orwell was right - nations would find a way to constantly change the 'friend and enemy' - according to the needs of the elite.  And let's not forget that the elite's wars in Moslem countries started the terrorism in western countries!

 

Friends and enemies have changed so frequently within both the uk and eu ☹️ - although most have remained oblivious to these changes and just accept the current 'enemy'.  Very sad, but to be fair - most people are understandably only concerned about what is happening in their own, personal, lives.

 

Edit - Hence the brexit vote!

Edited October 22, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[tebee]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

So you think that if the brit. govt. delivers a 'leave in name only deal' it will be elected at the next election?

 

You may be right, but I think they'll have to put a whole lot more 'spin' on the 'deal' 'agreed' (and we've all seen the way this is going....) to reach this result.

They are caught between a rock and a hard place - a brexit in name only will upset the more fervent Brexiters and a hard no deal brexit will do so much damage to the economy that they will be unelectable for a generation. 

 

So in the short term the hard brexit will do them less damage, but in the longer term it will wreak them forever. 

 

My guess is they will go for BINO or a never ending transition - but sanity does not seem to be in this governments lexicon 

 

 

[talahtnut]

After all the years since we have been in the EU, how much better off is the UK population?

To me it seems that the lunatic asylum joined a bigger lunatic asylum.

 

[Esso49]

Just now, talahtnut said:

After all the years since we have been in the EU, how much better off is the UK population?

To me it seems that the lunatic asylum joined a bigger lunatic asylum.

 

You must be mad to believe that ????

[dunroaming]

May has said that we are 95% there with a deal on Brexit.  All very well but you need to tell the people what that proposed deal is.  Apart from telling them what the 5% left to agree is.

 

This is not a matter of keeping the cards close to your chest Mr's May.  If you want to stop the rot and save your a*se then you need to start talking. 

[candide]

2 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

And how about the intelligentsia of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands...... All countries with their own rich histories, all in Europe, and now all working together in the EU.
Why is the UK any different from those countries?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

I was not particularly fingerpointing at the British intelligentsia. For centuries, the intelligentsia in all European countries has always been europeanized: the nobility, the clergy, university faculties, writers, artists, etc... Actually. until around the midth of the Renaissance they were using Latin as a common language.

[candide]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Another attack, wooah, two in quick succession, must be doing something right..? But please who is the 'you know'? you half-heartedly reference above? It couldn't be, who I think it is, could it?? I do hope not.

 

I think it is fair to say if you go back to the earlier times of the Union there was much less of a 'europeanised' feel to the UK and its intelligentsia yes, definitely so. I'm not suggesting that being europeanised is in all ways a bad thing either, but I think it odd, as Orwell clearly thought so too, that instruction was taken from abroad by a certain class of people who felt a similarly inverse sense of shame about their own culture and traditions.  Orwell thought it an oddity in his time. I am echoing his sentiments as I believe they hold true today and are similarly relevant now.

Ok. I recognise I was being nasty. Actually it made me think to a recent speech of the AfD leader in Germany reviving an old rethoric of an internationalised elite. But G. Orwells can obviously not be compared to such people.

[bomber]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

There is no obligation that MP must deliver what the public voted for - remember this is the same British public that voted to name a ship "boaty macBoatface" - I don't see a ship called that now? 

there was a vote in my area on whether to make the 7 local councils a unitary one,74% voted against it,guess what happened next? they took <deleted> all notice of the vote and it was a disaster.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Why did you write "your government"....Why not "our"....Hmmmmmm..????

I didn't mean it that way. It was a prosaic / rhetorical flourish! ????

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

I think we can safely say without fear of contradiction that the decision of parliament will be acted on. And I have just checked with D Cameron and he said he doesn't care what you said either, so the feeling is mutual. ????????????

 

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

"Your government has tried hard to deliver what you wanted while minimising the harm that will result."

 

Agree entirely - as long as you are referring to "the harm that will result" to their own financial interests".....

 

 

You of all people don't believe that! Most of the CONs want Brexit for their own nefarious reasons.

[tebee]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Why did you write "your government"....Why not "our"....Hmmmmmm..????

 

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I didn't mean it that way. It was a prosaic / rhetorical flourish! ????

Personally, if I had the opportunity, I'd deny being anything to do with the current omnishambles of a government !   

[mommysboy]

I think Brexiteers could at least understand the nature of the double-whammy- Brexit, and a totally useless government.  I mean how would you like it if the boot was on the other foot?

 

I am only a reluctant Remainer.  You could have persuaded me!

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

More than a bit OTT....!

 

Which is a shame, as I've appreciated many of your previous posts.

 

But it's made your 'sympathies' very clear - which is not even close (mostly) to my 'point of view'.

 

pompous comes to mind

 

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, vogie said:

I think we can safely say without fear of contradiction that the decision of parliament will be acted on. And I have just checked with D Cameron and he said he doesn't care what you said either, so the feeling is mutual. ????????????

The decision of parliament was, it turns out, to hold a simple referendum to test the view of the people. That was done. AND significant time and treasure has gone in to giving the majority as much of what they want without killing the pig. The question is, how far do the people want to push it? There was a leave means leave worker (in charge of funding ironically) on Question Time. Her view was crash out and F the Irish! That sort of extremism does not win supporters. I wonder what her salary is? Not much for sure ????

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

This is a good (albeit easy) observation to make on TVF, Vogie. It is an issue that is present across the British population too, particularly with certain demographics, namely the young - generally uneducated and wholly ignorant of all that they decry. There are a fair few confused people, well represented on here, who are all too willing to cow-tow to the EU and all its obvious (and more covert) maladies, and who clearly have a burning sense of self loathing or perhaps even a masochistic streak ???

 

It is hardly surprising however, our own culture has been deliberately eroded to such an extent over the last few decades that many will claim there is no such thing as 'Britishness' or 'English values' etc. and that this is and has always been a fallacy., 

 

To those people I'd say learn the history of your own country and the pioneering effect Britain had around the western world, in particular, for centuries in areas such as spreading liberty, the rule of law, parliamentary politics and democracy, economics, international trade, military endeavour, massively in literature and of course in invention - in creation, within the sciences and mathematics. These contributions and the people who pioneered them have shaped much of our culture, equally you could argue that our wonderful language and the independent, canny and humorous spirit of the fine peoples from all classes and all corners of the UK have too. To say that no such culture exists or ever has is a real travesty, especially when the people who so savagely attack it are themselves the descendants of a heroic generation who laid down their lives and liberty to save this so called 'fictional culture' and 'ridiculed society' in which we now reside, freely, I might add.

 

Disgraceful behaviour if you ask me. Also, there is nothing racist, fascistic, xenophobic or nationalistic about stating these facts, it doesn't mean in any way that I or anyone else who espouses them have less respect or appreciation of foreign people or cultures, it's just an expression of the truth of history and our pride in it. After all, we have a right to be proud of our forebears, where pride is derivable of course. As well as understanding the multitude of flaws and evils of areas of our past too, which I think most informed men and women are these days, without question.

However, expressing any form of patriotism or affection for one's own national history is now totally taboo and uniformly sniggered at by a class of people who believe themselves 'better' for simply holding an opposed opinion. Halo polishing I believe it's called. ???? 

 

This has come about for many reasons, not least the neo-liberal 'intelligentsia' of the UK being increasingly unable to stomach the idea of Englishness or Britishness. These chattering classes have found it to be rather vulgar and embarrassing for over a century now. Why that is, is a much broader and very interesting topic.

 

'In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings.'

 

'It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box.'

 

G.Orwell's words are still as true today (if not more so) than they were 70 years ago. He had these prats weighed up a long time ago.

 

Brexit may be a shambles and the UK may be a laughing stock for now, but it will pale in comparison with what is coming to the continent and will vindicate our vote to leave.

Once the crud really starts to hit the fan, all people from over the EU will realise, too late, what a huge disaster it has become. 

 

 

"It is hardly surprising however, our own culture has been deliberately eroded to such an extent over the last few decades that many will claim there is no such thing as 'Britishness' or 'English values' etc. and that this is and has always been a fallacy.,"

 

I think today's news from a Ryan Air flight demonstrates that English values have been released without any hindrance. More the behaviour one expects from the Deep South many decades ago and very far from EU social etiquette.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, candide said:

Your post is quite instructing. I would never have thought a paralell could be observed between G. Orwell and, ahem, you know...

Anyway, I am just wondering: has the British intelligentsia ever been non-europeanized since the time the Kingdom was created?

I do love a candid comment ????

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Care to define 'everyone'?

 

 

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that the opinion voiced by a majority of those who voted was to leave the EU. We heard it. We understand. Thanks for your valued opinion.

 

Next!

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

And how about the intelligentsia of Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Denmark, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, the Netherlands...... All countries with their own rich histories, all in Europe, and now all working together in the EU.
Why is the UK any different from those countries?


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

We don't speak the lingua Franca

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

You believe those countries work together ? ????????

Yes. They pool some sovereignty in exchange for benefits to them all. Rather sophisticated actually. ????

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, talahtnut said:

After all the years since we have been in the EU, how much better off is the UK population?

To me it seems that the lunatic asylum joined a bigger lunatic asylum.

 

Substantially better off. I posted graphs above. And that's just economics. Culturally, I find Europe much more pleasing than the USA.