UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Jip99]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

I bet they'd be worth a few bob.............

 

 

•         ................sorry ????

 

 

 

3s  10d I believe..

 

(or... 3/- 10d)

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not my opinion, nothing is cast in stone.

no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

 

Whether you, or the other brexiteers, like it or not the UK is a parliamentary democracy, not a peoples republic.

And whether you, or the other remainers, like it or not the UK Parliament gave the say to the British people.

 

The result of the referendum is "constitutionally and morally binding" said Rees-Mogg ages ago and I think that he's right. This is why it has been acted upon and why the majority of MPs are so scared to defy it. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by nauseus

[Chomper Higgot]

15 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And whether you, or the other remainers, like it or not the UK Parliament gave the say to the British people.

 

The result of the referendum is "constitutionally and morally binding" said Rees-Mogg ages ago and I think that he's right. This is why it has been acted upon and why the majority of MPs are so scared to defy it. 

And whether or not Brexiteers like it or not the British public has a right to change its mind and the UK Parliament will be only too glad to oblige.

 

The only reason this government is continuing with this obvious catastrophe has nothing to do with what the public want and every thing to do with internal power struggles within the Tory Party.

 

A Brexit with a protracted transition period will be reversed. 

 

[Jip99]

31 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And whether you, or the other remainers, like it or not the UK Parliament gave the say to the British people.

 

The result of the referendum is "constitutionally and morally binding" said Rees-Mogg ages ago and I think that he's right. This is why it has been acted upon and why the majority of MPs are so scared to defy it. 

 

 

As a reminder, David Cameron could not have been more specific - this from his 2015 Chatham House speech:-

 

This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

 

And it will be the final decision.So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay I say think again.

 

The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

 

An in or out referendum.

 

When the British people speak, their voice will be respected

– not ignored.

 

If we vote to leave, then we will leave.

 

There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Jip99

[bomber]

17 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

As a reminder, David Cameron could not have been more specific - this from his 2015 Chatham House speech:-

 

This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the biggest we will make in our lifetimes.

 

And it will be the final decision.So to those who suggest that a decision in the referendum to leave would merely produce another stronger renegotiation and then a second referendum in which Britain would stay I say think again.

 

The renegotiation is happening right now. And the referendum that follows will be a once in a generation choice.

 

An in or out referendum.

 

When the British people speak, their voice will be respected

– not ignored.

 

If we vote to leave, then we will leave.

 

There will not be another renegotiation and another referendum.

 

 

 

 

still only his opinions,i can recall many things he has stated that did not happen

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

LOL my typo, I'm sure you're smart enough to guess that, I guess?

 

Your opinion of what the 2016 referendum was about is highly idiosyncratic, and not shared by any of the players. I've answered the Constitution 101 questions numerous times. If you don't like my answers, and the answers from other posters, you could take it up with your MP, or sue DC. I read several news sources every day, and this forum is the only place where the Constitution 101 "argument" is featured. Repeating it here every day isn't going to help your cause at all.

 

You repeatedly make wild and unsubstantiated assertions about the economic impact. None of the 10 plus economic forecasts that I am aware of agree with you. They forecast an impact of +7% to -10% of GDP over 15 years. One of my former employers, a world leading international management consultancy referred to in the recent gov't forecast document that Tebee linked to, comes in around midway in that range. I have been over this numerous times already with Tebee.

 

Neither of the main parties supports another referendum, this is a fact.

 

Given that I'm genuinely impartial in this "debate" I guess I have the luxury of looking at things as they are, rather than as I want them to be.

I believe in respecting the law

 

I believe in MPs doing their DUTY

 

I believe only a single forecast of a positive economic result and that was from Thatchers economic advisor Minford

 

I believe a majority of MPs would favour a second referendum

 

I believe Corbyn is a fifth columnist

 

I believe you are a Brexiter at best

 

I believe I'll have another beer

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

But remain wouldn't be an option if People want a vote on the deal and thats what they keep asking for the only tick boxes on the ballot paper would be

Do you want to accept the deal that is on the table and leave

Do you want to reject the deal that is on the table and leave

No More No Less

Why?

 

You boys still scared shitless that the peeps have woken up to this insanity?

[My Thai Life]

The EU’s project for ever-closer union trundles on – now with its aims for imposing taxation law on sovereign countries. Fiscal union is considered to be one of the late stages of unification. Maybe now is a good time to get out after all.

 

“The European Union is drawing up plans to control Britain’s tax policies ­after Brexit, leaked documents seen by The Daily Telegraph disclose.

 

According to draft documents, the EU wants to ensure the UK pledges to keep its tax rules aligned with those of the bloc as part of any future Brexit agreement.

Such a move would prevent the UK from becoming a low-tax economy by cutting its corporation tax rate to attract business. And – depending on the wording of any agreement – it could mean that any future changes to the EU’s tax rules would need to be followed by the UK, even years after Brexit.

 

The document was written by the European Parliament’s TAX3 secretariat following a meeting with the Brexit Task Force, the EU negotiating team led by Michel Barnier, last week.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/19/revealed-eus-attempt-control-britains-tax-policies-brexit/

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

And their nothing in the above that prevents David Cameron stating that voting leave means leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union

 

Cameron was only a PM; he was not the king

 

It is parliament that is sovereign

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

And whether you, or the other remainers, like it or not the UK Parliament gave the say to the British people.

 

The result of the referendum is "constitutionally and morally binding" said Rees-Mogg ages ago and I think that he's right. This is why it has been acted upon and why the majority of MPs are so scared to defy it. 

And you believe JRM?

 

I trust the actual act

[Grouse]

7 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

The EU’s project for ever-closer union trundles on – now with its aims for imposing taxation law on sovereign countries. Fiscal union is considered to be one of the late stages of unification. Maybe now is a good time to get out after all.

 

“The European Union is drawing up plans to control Britain’s tax policies ­after Brexit, leaked documents seen by The Daily Telegraph disclose.

 

According to draft documents, the EU wants to ensure the UK pledges to keep its tax rules aligned with those of the bloc as part of any future Brexit agreement.

Such a move would prevent the UK from becoming a low-tax economy by  cutting its corporation tax rate to attract business. And – depending on the wording of any agreement – it could mean that any future changes to the EU’s tax rules would need to be followed by the UK, even years after Brexit.

 

The document was written by the European Parliament’s TAX3 secretariat following a meeting with the Brexit Task Force, the EU negotiating team led by Michel Barnier, last week.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/19/revealed-eus-attempt-control-britains-tax-policies-brexit/

Well that's a typical Brexiter attitude

 

You see I am a social democrat and appreciate civil society and social justice. You know, civilisation.

 

Both the EU and I do not wish to have a low tax, low wage, low egalitarian, low standard, low class economy anywhere near.

 

But thanks for the offer

 

I hear the USA is good for those kind of priorities

[vinny41]

19 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why?

 

You boys still scared shitless that the peeps have woken up to this insanity?

Peopla have stated they want a vote on the deal not a rerun of the 2016 EU referendum  

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, vinny41 said:

How do you know that the majority want a comprehensive trade deal have you asked them each person 

For the groups of people that voted to leave in areas that were traditional labour heartlands have you ask each person

Most people I know that Voted leave just want to leave end off  they are fed up with Project Fear, Project Fear 2.0

The people that are running Project Fear are willing to sacrifice 3.8 million EU citizens living in the UK , No doubt in their mind

they will call them collateral damage

'How do you know that the majority want a comprehensive trade deal'

 

Common sense. If it were not the case we would not be in this position. In any case, opinion polls show this from day one, until now. Rather a large part of the Brexit discussion was taken up with the deal, which was to be a super duper free trade deal as I recall.

 

You seem to be sure of the opposite. How do you know then? 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

www.thaivisa.com

 

Who are they?

[billd766]

3 hours ago, Jip99 said:

 Detail of the post Brexit coins have just been released:-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wot! No groats?

 

The groat is the traditional name of a long-defunct English and Irish silver coin worth four pence, and also a Scottish coin originally worth fourpence, with later issues being valued at eightpence and one shilling.

 

 

[rixalex]

Why?
 
You boys still scared shitless that the peeps have woken up to this insanity?

Why would anyone need to be scared one way or the other what "the peeps" think? According to you their opinion can simply be accepted or discarded dependent on whether they are falling into line.

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[Grouse]

26 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Peopla have stated they want a vote on the deal not a rerun of the 2016 EU referendum  

OK

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Why would anyone need to be scared one way or the other what "the peeps" think? According to you their opinion can simply be accepted or discarded dependent on whether they are falling into line.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

That is basically how our representative democracy is supposed to work. You choose someone you can rely upon to vote in your best interests; like me for example

 

This has been distorted by weak, poorly educated politicians who do not really understand their role and fear a backlash from their constituents.

 

Ill bet you JRM agrees with me. I think he actually believes Brexit is a good idea and doesn't care what his constituents feel

 

So that's why I want a second referendum to get us back over the line so that MPs can can Brexit.

 

BTW IF there was a vote to jump off the cliff, MPs would can Brexit.

 

Norway+ stands a chance as Nash equilibrium solution. Otherwise it's remain.

[Orac]

The EU’s project for ever-closer union trundles on – now with its aims for imposing taxation law on sovereign countries. Fiscal union is considered to be one of the late stages of unification. Maybe now is a good time to get out after all.
 
“The European Union is drawing up plans to control Britain’s tax policies ­after Brexit, leaked documents seen by The Daily Telegraph disclose.
 

According to draft documents, the EU wants to ensure the UK pledges to keep its tax rules aligned with those of the bloc as part of any future Brexit agreement.

Such a move would prevent the UK from becoming a low-tax economy by cutting its corporation tax rate to attract business. And – depending on the wording of any agreement – it could mean that any future changes to the EU’s tax rules would need to be followed by the UK, even years after Brexit.

 

The document was written by the European Parliament’s TAX3 secretariat following a meeting with the Brexit Task Force, the EU negotiating team led by Michel Barnier, last week.”

 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/19/revealed-eus-attempt-control-britains-tax-policies-brexit/

The irony being that they would not have been unable to do this had we remained part of the EU without the U.K. agreeing to it through a referendum.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[kwilco]

That old "entendre of evil" the Finacial Times and the UK government have continued to bombard us with "project fear"

 

Wartime blockade busting measures reminiscent of the u-boat days......

 

https://www.ft.com/content/f853b544-d6cb-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8?fbclid=IwAR1akike3eDtlS_KbuLfDCFPPd3JvcTyr56eyL9nqGUeA0OABrp3M83g944

[tebee]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

I believe in respecting the law

 

I believe in MPs doing their DUTY

 

I believe only a single forecast of a positive economic result and that was from Thatchers economic advisor Minford

 

I believe a majority of MPs would favour a second referendum

 

I believe Corbyn is a fifth columnist

 

I believe you are a Brexiter at best

 

I believe I'll have another beer

 

And remember Minford is the guy who thought the poll tax was a good idea too - that worked out well didn't it?

[tebee]

Post Brexit ;-

 

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

The EU’s project for ever-closer union trundles on – now with its aims for imposing taxation law on sovereign countries. Fiscal union is considered to be one of the late stages of unification. Maybe now is a good time to get out after all.

 

“The European Union is drawing up plans to control Britain’s tax policies ­after Brexit, leaked documents seen by The Daily Telegraph disclose.

 

According to draft documents, the EU wants to ensure the UK pledges to keep its tax rules aligned with those of the bloc as part of any future Brexit agreement.

Such a move would prevent the UK from becoming a low-tax economy by cutting its corporation tax rate to attract business. And – depending on the wording of any agreement – it could mean that any future changes to the EU’s tax rules would need to be followed by the UK, even years after Brexit.

 

The document was written by the European Parliament’s TAX3 secretariat following a meeting with the Brexit Task Force, the EU negotiating team led by Michel Barnier, last week.”

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/19/revealed-eus-attempt-control-britains-tax-policies-brexit/

 

Perhaps one of the worst aspects of Brexit is that sensible Brexiteers have not had the chance to explain why Brexit may be a good choice, and perhaps even an imperative. 

 

I do think, however, that this is as much the fault of the hard right of Tory party, as well as Remainers. 

 

I think too that this may already be a moot point, since the negotiations thus far have been so poor that there is really no rescue position. In dithering, the Government created a power vacuum which has allowed opponents to gain undue leverage, eg, backstop.  Now, it's about going ahead with a less than ideal and costly Brexit, or just folding.  I reckon the situation is so bad now that whatever is done this will drag for 20 years or more in one guise or another, costing all of us dearly in the process.

 

 

[Grouse]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

 

Is this true?

 

I'm inclined to believe Bloomberg,in general, but this has not appeared in MSM

[tebee]

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

 

Is this true?

 

I'm inclined to believe Bloomberg,in general, but this has not appeared in MSM

Yes , I've seen it elsewhere - the figure they quote is garbage though.

 

Refusing visa to other countries WTO delegates does not sound like the actions of "global Britain" - someone at the home office never got the memo it appears.

 

Your "hostile environment" in action, tarnishing  the UK's reputation on the world stage.  

[melvinmelvin]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-17/how-tiny-moldova-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

 

Is this true?

 

I'm inclined to believe Bloomberg,in general, but this has not appeared in MSM

sounds plausible to me

 

[Orac]

Russia is lobbing some spanners around as well:

 

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/brexit/europe/russia-blocks-uks-post-brexit-tariff-proposal-at-wto

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

[rixalex]

That is basically how our representative democracy is supposed to work. You choose someone you can rely upon to vote in your best interests; like me for example
 
This has been distorted by weak, poorly educated politicians who do not really understand their role and fear a backlash from their constituents.
 
Ill bet you JRM agrees with me. I think he actually believes Brexit is a good idea and doesn't care what his constituents feel
 
So that's why I want a second referendum to get us back over the line so that MPs can can Brexit.
 
BTW IF there was a vote to jump off the cliff, MPs would can Brexit.
 
Norway+ stands a chance as Nash equilibrium solution. Otherwise it's remain.

How representative democracy works in practice is somewhat different to how you describe... or at least how you would like it to work.

Yes politicians can, and are within their rights, to simply ignore the will of the people on a decision, if they feel they know better than them, but doing so means a high likelihood of them no longer being in power after too long, and so therefore, going against the will of the people tends to be pretty pointless and self-defeating.

This is like a self regulating valve built in to representative democracy that allows, in theory, politicians to go against the wishes of the people, but in practice, it's not something they can do, at least not when it comes to any major decisions. It doesn't make them weak or uneducated. It makes them not stupid.



Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[mommysboy]

11 minutes ago, Orac said:

Russia is lobbing some spanners around as well:

 

https://mlexmarketinsight.com/insights-center/editors-picks/brexit/europe/russia-blocks-uks-post-brexit-tariff-proposal-at-wto

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

It kind of scotches the notion that there is a glorious world of free trade when released from the EU's shackles: out of the frying pan in to the fire.

 

Negotiating with the USA won't be much easier.

[mommysboy]

Moldova was joined by the U.S., New Zealand Japan, South Korea, Ukraine, and Israel in expressing concern that the U.K. application didn’t pass muster, according to officials familiar with the accession procedure. U.S. reticence was due to the U.K.’s failure to provide requested information and updates.  Sounds believable, based on Brexit experience. Our Government is basically well off pace.