UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, david555 said:

U.K. problem was & Is the narrow majority  even a new vote could see the same example in narrow favor to remain ….. so unless an overwhelming majority the dividing factor stay's …. hopeless situation for the U.K. 

To me, the worst thing about Brexit( and the reason why referendums on major  constitutional changes should always have supermajorities) is the way it has divided British society. 

 

The tensions it has generated will last for years - maybe until most of the Brexiters have died out - the country is going to be hard to govern in the aftermath and resentment will fester.

 

 

[vogie]

This video from YouTube is well worth a look at, it was made 2 weeks prior to the referendum vote and is totally unbiased IMO. Which also shows that the electorate was given information to base their vote on.

 

[david555]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

The "Irish problem" as you call it has been ongoing since the early 19th century which was long before the EU ever came about.

 

The EU had nothing much to do with it and still should not have.

That is why I call it your U.K. problem, as so long already …….only they should /have the rights to decide for themselves

[billd766]

12 hours ago, david555 said:

I am talking about the Irish letting vote what they want....not your Brexit …. you can have that , nobody can stop you , but nobody can stop E.U neither to take controle on THEIR borders , it is not a one way thing all your Brexit .

Normally someone who leave is sure he/she  go to better future ….so leave, ...it is from beginning clear said by E.U. what was possible , only U.K. try it to force the other way.... leaving is saying goodby is that so difficult to understand ? And yes it would hurt E.U. too , but they accepted that thought already , is inheriting on any divorce both parties loose 

 

What do you mean by Ireland?

 

Eire or Northern Ireland as they are two separate countries.

 

The border between the two countries is NOT an EU border at all.

 

I suggest you do a little research about the two countries.

[Mattd]

12 minutes ago, david555 said:

Count us out (E.U.) because we are not leaving , our organization keep working & existing , it is completely your U.K. problem chosen democratically to destroy your country (hoping I am wrong for your sake ...but …)

This is another reason why things are not progressing.................

As I have said and truly believe, it is of zero interest to the EU to not negotiate with the UK, as is the opposite, both sides have too much to lose and a trade war between the two parties in the future achieves nothing at all.

The UK leaving the EU will not destroy the UK or the EU, what it will do is harm both, yes, granted perhaps in the short term the UK will suffer more, in reality within the EU there are only a handful of strong economies propping up the weaker ones and one of which has voted to leave, the last thing anybody should want is for the UK to stop being at least a part of the bigger economy, remember, it does affect every single country within the EU.

[david555]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

What do you mean by Ireland?

 

Eire or Northern Ireland as they are two separate countries.

 

The border between the two countries is NOT an EU border at all.

 

I suggest you do a little research about the two countries.

Let to be easy call them the Irish people and not start the favorite game of England to divide & rule …. o.k. 

As they all don't want a border coming as they are 1 people on 2 country's

[david555]

1 minute ago, Mattd said:

This is another reason why things are not progressing.................

As I have said and truly believe, it is of zero interest to the EU to not negotiate with the UK, as is the opposite, both sides have too much to lose and a trade war between the two parties in the future achieves nothing at all.

The UK leaving the EU will not destroy the UK or the EU, what it will do is harm both, yes, granted perhaps in the short term the UK will suffer more, in reality within the EU there are only a handful of strong economies propping up the weaker ones and one of which has voted to leave, the last thing anybody should want is for the UK to stop being at least a part of the bigger economy, remember, it does affect every single country within the EU.

But it was the U.K. choice …. so solve it ...we did not started it 

[billd766]

54 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned the Irish Referendum of 2008 on the Lisbon Treaty. The article quoted, taken in isolation and out of context, did indeed paint the EU in the manner you describe. The reality, though, is very different and despite it being a unique situation, it does have certain corollaries with the present position to make it relevant to the argument.

 

At the time 26 of the 27 EU countries (Croatia had not yet joined) had ratified the Treaty. The Irish Constitution required a referendum on the subject, so this was held, and by a margin of 54% to 46% they voted to reject the Treaty. Owing to the relatively small population and low turnout, this equated to the votes of about 50,000 Irish overturning the wish of 300 million odd people.

 

Not unreasonably, the EU felt they needed to address this situation, so started by commissioning a poll to discover why people had voted against ratification. The result showed that the most common reason given, by just over 20% of 'No' voters was that they didn't understand the Treaty (and before anyone queries the validity of the poll because of who commissioned it, another such survey in The Irish Times produced a similar result, with an even higher percentage). Efforts were then made to educate people and remove some of the more fanciful misunderstandings (such as that the Treaty meant compulsory conscription to a European Army, or that it would force Ireland to change its abortion law).

 

The following year another referendum was held, against the wishes of many who felt the original result should stand, and this time the voting was 67% to 33% in favour of the Treaty, a swing of just over 20% to the 'Yes' side, which would suggest that those who had not understood it now did, and were in favour of it. As a result, the Treaty of Lisbon was finally effected on 1st December 2009.

 

This episode tends to support my earlier assertion that a referendum which produces a relatively slender majority for one side or the other simply creates more problems than it solves. A vote to effectively unravel 40 years of progress and start again from scratch needs the support of a solid majority (at the very least 60:40 in my opinion) to prevent the kind of situation we are seeing today.

 

 

 

Quote from your post "Owing to the relatively small population and low turnout, this equated to the votes of about 50,000 Irish overturning the wish of 300 million odd people."

 

However 300 million odd people did NOT vote in the Irish election, only the people of Ireland did. Their wishes should have been respected but were not.

 

In the Brexit referendum over a million more people voted to leave than remain and their wishes should be respect too, but they are not.

[tebee]

36 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Of course there has to be regulatory alignment/equivalence, but when it comes to the UK, the EU is insisting on freedom of movement.  So there are no grounds for any kind of bespoke deal.  Quite simply, it's a waste of time.

 

The WTO does not insist on freedom of movement- land, labour, capital, etc.  Unfortunately, it is the only way to go.

 

 

That is because the WTO deals solely in trade in goods and not in services.

 

The UK makes a considerable surplus in services and a notable deficit in goods.

 

So were as you can get away without freedom of movement- land, labour, capital, etc. for goods, it is a necessity for services. A simple example - how is a British orchestra going to perform a concert in the EU without the right to go there ? Yes they  could apply for visas and do customs declarations for all their instruments, but that costs time and money and puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

 

It's the single market and all the four freedoms that level the playing field.   

[Mattd]

13 minutes ago, david555 said:

But it was the U.K. choice …. so solve it ...we did not started it 

Oh dear, what a ridiculous and very foolish way of looking at it, see what I mean about egos, isn't this how 5 year old's speak in the school playing field?

Unfortunately this is seemingly the attitude of some in power within the EEC, i.e. boo hoo, the UK wants to leave, we will show them........................ cutting off the nose to spite the face has never worked.

It takes two to party, the UK cannot negotiate on her own, if she could, then I'm sure the EU would regret it, so it is time to swallow pride and all that and both sides get on and negotiate a deal that can be beneficial to all, it is there I'm sure, if actually wanted.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Mattd

[billd766]

17 minutes ago, david555 said:

That is why I call it your U.K. problem, as so long already …….only they should /have the rights to decide for themselves

 

So why did the EU insist on another referendum for Ireland?

 

Why is the EU insisting that the border is a UK problem and not theirs?

 

14 minutes ago, david555 said:

Let to be easy call them the Irish people and not start the favorite game of England to divide & rule …. o.k. 

As they all don't want a border coming as they are 1 people on 2 country's

 

They are not all one people and have not been for a long time.

 

The divide and rule is coming from your EU.

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, david555 said:

But it was the U.K. choice …. so solve it ...we did not started it 

Is it solvable, Mrs May has stated there will be no border, the EU has said they want a border. The only option is to walk away without a deal, if that happens there will still be no border, doesn't that make it the EUs problem then.

[david555]

8 minutes ago, Mattd said:

Oh dear, what a ridiculous and very foolish way of looking at it, see what I mean about egos, isn't this how 5 year old's speak in the school playing field?

Unfortunately this is seemingly the attitude of some in power within the EEC, i.e. boo hoo, the UK wants to leave, we will show them........................ cutting off the nose to spite the face has never worked.

It takes two to party, the UK cannot negotiate on her own, if she could, then I'm sure the EU would regret it, so it is time to swallow pride and all that and both sides get on and negotiate a deal that can be beneficial to all, it is there I'm sure, if actually wanted.

No, it is just respecting your leaving …..up to you for your future …..we are not responsible any further , you have the freedom to stand on your own legs now .

Democratic chosen by the people .

[david555]

10 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

So why did the EU insist on another referendum for Ireland?

 

Why is the EU insisting that the border is a UK problem and not theirs?

 

 

They are not all one people and have not been for a long time.

 

The divide and rule is coming from your EU.

so why they do not want a border then as you say the are not one people...?

[whatsupdoc]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Is it solvable, Mrs May has stated there will be no border, the EU has said they want a border. The only option is to walk away without a deal, if that happens there will still be no border, doesn't that make it the EUs problem then.

In that case Italy should bring all its African immigrants to Donegal, give them a compass and tell them to walk eastwards.

You really think the UK doesn't need a border?

[david555]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

In that case Italy should bring all its African immigrants to Donegal, give them a compass and tell them to walk eastwards.

You really think the UK doesn't need a border?

And forgetting the French giving a blind eye  then  to the Eurotunnel as they now close him off for them as good as they can….

Edited August 17, 2018 by david555

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

In that case Italy should bring all its African immigrants to Donegal, give them a compass and tell them to walk eastwards.

You really think the UK doesn't need a border?

Couldn't you think of anything more ridiculous than that, go on have try.

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Couldn't you think of anything more ridiculous than that, go on have try.

I can't beat your suggestion that the UK shouldn't guard its border after a no deal Brexit.

[ballpoint]

This whole sorry state of affairs can be explained with three simple facts:

 

The EU doesn't want the UK to leave, and will do all it can at the moment to try and get the decision reversed, or at least a second referendum implemented.

 

If the UK does leave, the EU doesn't want this to spread to other members, and will do all it can to make things difficult for the UK.  For those saying that the EU will also lose by having no trade deal with the UK, then you must weigh that up against the loss of other members.  Sometimes it's better to cut off a leg, to the very real detriment of ones ability to walk, than to allow the cancer to spread.

 

The UK government doesn't want to leave the EU, despite the referendum result, and will do all it can at the moment to try and get the decision reversed, or at least a second referendum implemented.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I can't beat your suggestion that the UK shouldn't guard its border after a no deal Brexit.

Read my post again, I said is it solvable, the Irish don't want a border, your the man who knows it all, what do you suggest?

[whatsupdoc]

Just now, vogie said:

Read my post again, I said is it solvable, the Irish don't want a border, your the man who knows it all, what do you suggest?

Nobody wants a border but in a no deal scenario there is no choice other than to reinstall it.

[billd766]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Nobody wants a border but in a no deal scenario there is no choice other than to reinstall it.

 

No choice on whose part?

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

 

No choice on whose part?

Both

[vogie]

Just now, whatsupdoc said:

Nobody wants a border but in a no deal scenario there is no choice other than to reinstall it.

The reason there is going to be a no deal scenario is because Ireland and the UK don't want a border, so if we walk away do you think it is likely we would put up a border, it defies all logic.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Nobody wants a border but in a no deal scenario there is no choice other than to reinstall it.

Why would the UK want to build a border it doesn't want?

[Stupooey]

37 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Quote from your post "Owing to the relatively small population and low turnout, this equated to the votes of about 50,000 Irish overturning the wish of 300 million odd people."

 

However 300 million odd people did NOT vote in the Irish election, only the people of Ireland did. Their wishes should have been respected but were not.

 

In the Brexit referendum over a million more people voted to leave than remain and their wishes should be respect too, but they are not.

 

I never claimed that the 300 million did vote in the Irish referendum. What I did say was that the Treaty had already been ratified on behalf of these 300 million. Because 50,000 odd voted one way rather than the other in Ireland, the wishes of this 300 million were going to be denied. If this is your idea of democracy in action, then I feel very sorry for you. When it was found that the major factor behind the result was ignorance, it just proved the failings of a first-past-the-post referendum.

 

Of course I would not dare suggest that so much as one Brexit voter did not fully understand the ramifications of their decision....

[whatsupdoc]

Just now, vogie said:

The reason there is going to be a no deal scenario is because Ireland and the UK don't want a border, so if we walk away do you think it is likely we would put up a border, it defies all logic.

You think you can do cross border trade without a border? Not even under WTO rules.

And maybe the UK wants to check who gets into the country. I remember something in the Brexit propaganda about taking back control.....

[billd766]

21 minutes ago, david555 said:

And forgetting the French giving a blind eye  then  to the Eurotunnel as they now close him off for them as good as they can….

 

But the immigrants are a French (and EU) problem to deal with. To the UK they are illegal immigrants as indeed they are to France but the French have no idea what to do with them.

[billd766]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

 

I never claimed that the 300 million did vote in the Irish referendum. What I did say was that the Treaty had already been ratified on behalf of these 300 million. Because 50,000 odd voted one way rather than the other in Ireland, the wishes of this 300 million were going to be denied. If this is your idea of democracy in action, then I feel very sorry for you. When it was found that the major factor behind the result was ignorance, it just proved the failings of a first-past-the-post referendum.

 

Of course I would not dare suggest that so much as one Brexit voter did not fully understand the ramifications of their decision....

 

I agree that you did not claim that 300 million had voted but why should those 300 million who did NOT vote have a greater say in another countries voting?

 

The EU.

 

One size does NOT fit all.

[david555]

15 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

This whole sorry state of affairs can be explained with three simple facts:

 

The EU doesn't want the UK to leave, and will do all it can at the moment to try and get the decision reversed, or at least a second referendum implemented.

 

If the UK does leave, the EU doesn't want this to spread to other members, and will do all it can to make things difficult for the UK.  For those saying that the EU will also lose by having no trade deal with the UK, then you must weigh that up against the loss of other members.  Sometimes it's better to cut off a leg, to the very real detriment of ones ability to walk, than to allow the cancer to spread.

 

The UK government doesn't want to leave the EU, despite the referendum result, and will do all it can at the moment to try and get the decision reversed, or at least a second referendum implemented.

You could also see all from U.K. side to like breaking up the E.U. such could happen if they give U.K. what they want : all the benefits from a membership without being a member ….so that makes it a blocked situation