UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nong38]

The people made their decision 2 years ago. To have another vote on the leave position would have dire consequences on democracy, you keep having a vote until you get the result you want and then you stop? That's what is wrong with the EU, that's the way they operate, they don't respect or answer to the people, they are a dictatorship.If the public voted to stay in a new vote we would be treated like dog s----t, there is no way back.

If you did not understand what you were voting for in 2016 who's fault is that? Many issues to take into account, lots of information to assess, make your choice on the day, the world moves on, things change that's life. You cannot change a result that happened 2 years ago the same as you cannot change a football result, why do people think politics is different? Just accept what happened and get behind the country and make it successful, if you don't then the "rich" will become poor quicker than the "poor" will become poorer. Never in my life have I seen such bad losers, get out of the trough and back to work!

[3 minus 2]

33 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Yes I think otherwise.  Most definitely when people suggest there should be another referendum, or that a vote on a final deal should include a change mind option, or that most laughably at all that the referendum should be ignored as if it never happened, then what else is there to think?  

 

And likewise the hard line Brexiteers who still think we can reach some great deal, while ignoring the reality of the truly bad Chequer's proposal that has even been rejected by the EU.

 

All these things were justifiably considered a couple of years ago, but we've moved on.

what there is to think is that this is an opened disaster waiting in the wings and the reality is i'm personally thinking its gonna cost me  a  fortune, somewhere in the regions of 20 to 40% of my income for the next ??? maybe 20 plus  years and  what do i get in return  , absolutely NOTHING  .  the leaving and getting that  'great deal'   was  what the large majority believed in, as a single trading unit  it aint out there and never will be , go look up what the Japanese ambassador said recently.  HONESTLY i'm all up for leaving IF it can be justified, but still to this day there hasnt been ONE  argument that frankly isnt based on gut reaction and frankly  nonsence. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by 3 minus 2

[david555]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Whatever, but remember EU has no real intention of striking a reasonable trade deal.

 

And no your problems

Is there a whole in your parachute?: I think he's suggesting you are in freefall.

by U.K. thinking , as we not wave a white flag ….up to you they say in Thailand , so ….reasonable is what is on U.K. wishing list    I understand,( damn those Europeans don't give an inch in must be in many brains over the channel…..) 

Edited August 16, 2018 by david555

[mommysboy]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

by U.K. thinking , as we not wave a white flag ….up to you they say in Thailand , so ….reasonable is what is on U.K. wishing list    I understand,( damn those Europeans don't give an inch in must be in many brains over the channel…..

The Swiss, the Canadians, and now the Japanese can it seems have special deals; the UK however must agree to free movement, etc.  How does that work then?

[3 minus 2]

2 minutes ago, david555 said:

by U.K. thinking , as we not wave a white flag ….up to you they say in Thailand , so ….reasonable is what is on U.K. wishing list    I understand,( damn those Europeans don't give an inch in must be in many brains over the channel…..) 

NO, absolutely wrong WE signed a contract and WE are trying to get out of it , NOTHING to do with the europeans, we voted to leave under the terms we signed on  now are trying to wiggle our way out of it.

[3 minus 2]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

The Swiss, the Canadians, and now the Japanese can it seems have special deals; the UK however must agree to free movement, etc.  How does that work then?

cos they never were part of the ec   and aint trying to break/wiggle out of a SET IN STONE  agreement.

[david555]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

The Swiss, the Canadians, and now the Japanese can it seems have special deals; the UK however must agree to free movement, etc.  How does that work then?

You don't like it ? O.K. then take your no deal , or leave the table , but it is hopeless to squeeze more out of it than other get , and yes the Swiss has always special treatment even in war times , do not ask me why  I don't know , think all politicians spare those because their secret banking system maybe ?

Out of a club you can not have access or privileges like members of a club …… try your golf club or health club or ANY club to enforce to them ….good luck , strong heads in U.K. seems to understand that 

U.K. not happy in the club ...so now very soon out ….all happiness is coming to you I am  hoping 

[mommysboy]

23 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

what there is to think is that this is an opened disaster waiting in the wings and the reality is i'm personally thinking its gonna cost me  a  fortune, somewhere in the regions of 20 to 40% of my income for the next ??? maybe 20 plus  years .  the leaving and getting that  'great deal'   was  what the large majority believed in, as a single trading unit  it aint out there and never will be , go look up what the Japanese ambassador said recently.  HONESTLY i'm all up for leaving IF it can be justified, but still to this day there hasnt been ONE  argument that frankly isnt based on gut reaction and frankly  nonsence. 

Off topic really.

 

Yes that's right, that's what is going to happen to you, probably regardless of what deal is struck. Rather than Brexit, this is more about failing to address the reality of the 2008 crash, and printing money to give to the wealthy people who caused it, whilst increasing inequalities in wealth. It's about encouraging consumer driven growth on the back of borrowed money, and monetising stored wealth, so that effectively it appears that people have double the wealth they actually have.  It's about allowing hedge funds to drive short term growth on the back of very fractional banking. It's about encouraging and propping up an obscenely corrupt housing market, whilst not providing adequate housing for poor people.  Nothing really to do with Brexit as such, just the usual story of people with much wanting still more, at the expense of those who have little.

 

It most likely will also result in a dramatic fall in your capital too, and any private pension value. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

 

4 minutes ago, david555 said:

You don't like it ? O.K. then take your no deal , or leave the table , but it is hopeless to squeeze more out of it than other get , and yes the Swiss has always special treatment even in war times , do not ask me why  I don't know , think all politicians spare those because their secret banking system maybe ?

Out of a club you can not have access or privileges like members of a club …… try your golf club or health club or ANY club to enforce to them ….good luck , strong heads in U.K. seems to understand that 

U.K. not happy in the club ...so now very soon out ….all happiness is coming to you I am  hoping 

That is indeed what seems sadly inevitable.  I doubt you will be so smug when it does happen.

Edited August 16, 2018 by mommysboy

[3 minus 2]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Off topic really.

 

Yes that's right, that's what is going to happen to you, probably regardless of what deal is struck. Rather than Brexit, this is more about failing to address the reality of the 2008 crash, and printing money to give to the wealthy people who caused it, whilst increasing inequalities in wealth. It's about encouraging consumer driven growth on the back of borrowed money, and monetising stored wealth, so that effectively it appears that people have double the wealth they actually have.  It's about allowing hedge funds to drive short term growth on the back of very fractional banking. It's about encouraging and propping up an obscenely corrupt housing market, whilst not providing adequate housing for poor people.  Nothing really to do with Brexit as such, just the usual story of people with much wanting still more, at the expense of those who have little.

 yeah off topic and of the mark, little to do with keynsian economic interruptions, this is, well for me cause and effect, ie the causes and the effect brexits   gonna have and  VERY UNFORTUNATELY NEITHER  seem/are  good 

[welovesundaysatspace]

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

The people made their decision 2 years ago. To have another vote on the leave position would have dire consequences on democracy

People change their minds. You wanted democracy by referendum so be it. But allowing it only when it pleases is anti-democratic. 

 

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

you keep having a vote until you get the result you want and then you stop?

“you” is the people. And, yes, the people should have a vote until they get the result they want. At least that’s the consequence of starting this referendum-nonsense in the first place. 

 

There’s a reason for representative democracy: people can’t handle that much power, they do shit. You were stupid enough to allow it in the first place, now be so fair an let the people correct their mistake. 

 

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

That's what is wrong with the EU, that's the way they operate, they don't respect or answer to the people, they are a dictatorship.

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you write such nonsense?

 

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

the world moves on, things change that's life.

Correct, and that’s why people should be able to vote on it again. I’m just trying to imagine a company acting this way. A new competitor entered the market with a groundbreaking technology but the board is closing their eyes because “we decided so”. 

 

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

You cannot change a result that happened 2 years ago the same as you cannot change a football result, why do people think politics is different?

Because politics are different?! (But thanks for this comment. People thinking about politics like a football game — I’m not surprised how you ended up with this mess.)

 

16 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Never in my life have I seen such bad losers, get out of the trough and back to work!

What’s wrong in your life that you’re so obsessed about this? 

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

 yeah off topic and of the mark, little to do with keynsian economic interruptions, this is, well for me cause and effect, ie the causes and the effect brexits   gonna have and  VERY UNFORTUNATELY NEITHER  seem/are  good 

It's truly tragic, and possibly of Greek tragedy proportions.  But Brexit is only the trigger.  

 

The working class didn't really care about immigration when they had pounds in their pockets, and the old uns likewise.  Had there not been a squeeze on the poor in conjunction with giving billions to the already wealthy, this need not have happened.

 

This is an exquisitely Tory created disaster from the moment they gained power.  The Scottish government operated under much the same conditions but chose to make adequate provision for its poor.  Westminster chose to further support the already wealthy.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by mommysboy

[citybiker]

What’s wrong in your life that you’re so obsessed about this? 

And your so obsessed with another vote because remainers are unhappy of the result.

With some posters it's like frigging groundhog day just because they didn't like the result, the UK is moving on maybe the bitter remainers or anti Brexit campaigners just deal with it & allow the process to conclude.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk

[3 minus 2]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

That is indeed what seems sadly inevitable.  I doubt you will be so smug when it does happen.

yep, there's a distain  thats like  ignorance that manifests itself like a defence mechanisml that  BAD   S $ IT cant happen, and even  if it does, it  wont effect us. well this will and i cant see anything but hurt coming from it 

Edited August 16, 2018 by 3 minus 2

[aright]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

And your so obsessed with another vote because remainers are unhappy of the result.

With some posters it's like frigging groundhog day just because they didn't like the result, the UK is moving on maybe the bitter remainers or anti Brexit campaigners just deal with it & allow the process to conclude.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

As you say as a result of loosing the vote Remainers have become obsessed with a rerun which leads to a lack of balance in there analysis. What Remainers feel we are moving toward remains to be seen, what we are leaving is far more evident. 

[Bluespunk]

8 hours ago, david555 said:

As a non native English I must ask you the meaning, as I never learned English in school , only French Dutch an German , English only from reading an hearing ….. so I miss your point , sorry for that 

I’m fluent in English and I have no idea what he means. 

[stephenterry]

11 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Ironically then, another solution that seems to be acceptable to many leavers and remainers alike would be just to exit no deal.  It saves having to deal with that crooked bunch in Brussels who wouldn't know a free trade deal from a pile of horse dung. 

 

If so, lets get on with it- take the initiative.

for pete's sake read this before making another asinine comment

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

[stephenterry]

8 hours ago, nong38 said:

The people made their decision 2 years ago. To have another vote on the leave position would have dire consequences on democracy, you keep having a vote until you get the result you want and then you stop? That's what is wrong with the EU, that's the way they operate, they don't respect or answer to the people, they are a dictatorship.If the public voted to stay in a new vote we would be treated like dog s----t, there is no way back.

If you did not understand what you were voting for in 2016 who's fault is that? Many issues to take into account, lots of information to assess, make your choice on the day, the world moves on, things change that's life. You cannot change a result that happened 2 years ago the same as you cannot change a football result, why do people think politics is different? Just accept what happened and get behind the country and make it successful, if you don't then the "rich" will become poor quicker than the "poor" will become poorer. Never in my life have I seen such bad losers, get out of the trough and back to work!

read this before exercising your keyboard. It might affect your polarised viewpoint.

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

[stephenterry]

6 hours ago, citybiker said:

And your so obsessed with another vote because remainers are unhappy of the result.

With some posters it's like frigging groundhog day just because they didn't like the result, the UK is moving on maybe the bitter remainers or anti Brexit campaigners just deal with it & allow the process to conclude.



Sent from my SM-A500FU using Tapatalk
 

You also need to read this.

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

 

[whatsupdoc]

7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

for pete's sake read this before making another asinine comment

https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/blog-sir-ivan-rogers-speech-text-in-full/

I doubt whether many Brexiteers will want to read an excellent speech like that.

Many have made up their mind, do not really know the consequences, are not even that interested in them and anyway blame everything on the EU....

 

I would love to see an in-depth counter analysis by a Brexiteer of Sir Ivan Rogers speech in stead of the usual EU-bashing and 'Project Fear' yelling. But I guess it is just that much easier to repeat the falsehoods feeded to the public by the tabloid press.

[brewsterbudgen]

What’s wrong in your life that you’re so obsessed about this? 

Superb post. Says it all in a nutshell.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tomacht8]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I doubt whether many Brexiteers will want to read an excellent speech like that.

Many have made up their mind, do not really know the consequences, are not even that interested in them and anyway blame everything on the EU....

 

I would love to see an in-depth counter analysis by a Brexiteer of Sir Ivan Rogers speech in stead of the usual EU-bashing and 'Project Fear' yelling. But I guess it is just that much easier to repeat the falsehoods feeded to the public by the tabloid press.

A really good analytical text. I'm afraid that many parliamentarians have not even read this analysis. How else can one explain the partly brainless acting of those.

[tebee]

No deal is not a practical solution.

 

The point here was (and still is) that there can be no such thing as "no deal". We have to deal. The question is whether we negotiate before or after we leave the EU – whether we do it in a controlled fashion or in crisis conditions after things have stopped working and chaos has descended. Either way, we end up with deals. 

[My Thai Life]

7 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I doubt whether many Brexiteers will want to read an excellent [Ivan Rogers] speech like that.

Actually, here's a quote from Rogers' speech.

 

"so many propositions currently on the table from both the ex-Remainer and the ex-Leaver camps, are to put it bluntly, delusional."

 

By the way, I'm a Brit, not a remainer or a brexiter.

But to be honest, I'm sure glad I've got dual citizenship, but I was glad of that before the referendum too.

[stephenterry]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

I doubt whether many Brexiteers will want to read an excellent speech like that.

Many have made up their mind, do not really know the consequences, are not even that interested in them and anyway blame everything on the EU....

 

I would love to see an in-depth counter analysis by a Brexiteer of Sir Ivan Rogers speech in stead of the usual EU-bashing and 'Project Fear' yelling. But I guess it is just that much easier to repeat the falsehoods feeded to the public by the tabloid press.

What's of more concern is Theresa May's headlong red line rush to oblivion. She must halt Article 50 withdrawal until some sanity is recovered - i.e. her withdrawal expectations are not working - and focus on a reasoned decision of what's best for the UK based on the reality and actuality of Brexit being enforced - or not.

 

  

[tebee]

Hard Brexiteers don’t understand the consequences of a WTO deal Brexit

 

https://reaction.life/hard-brexiteers-dont-understand-consequences-wto-deal-brexit/

[tomacht8]

Here some core quotes from Rogers:

 

You simply cannot, with any honesty or coherence, make an argument for taking back control and full autonomy of decision-making on the UK side of the Channel, and simultaneously argue for the EU27 to restrict to a certain extent its own autonomous decision-making precisely in order to give you, a non-member of the club, a real say in the direction of its policy.

 

But the Luxembourg PM, Xavier Bettel’s pithy description is a pretty good one: “Before they (the British) were in with a lot of opt-outs; now they are out and want a lot of opt-ins”.

 

Why, again, should members, who have painfully agreed an extremely detailed constraining single rule book, allow a non-member greater latitude than they have themselves to achieve so-called comparable regulatory outcomes – and agree a non-ECJ unique resolution mechanism to decide whether they are comparable? This is not going to happen in a month of Sundays.

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The proverbial elephant in the room that is being conveniently over looked on all sides is that there is one eminently sensible solution that seems entirely practicable and do-able at this juncture in time. Soft Brexit (Norway model) wouldn't need even a second vote, and would sail through Parliament, and Brussels.  There would be minimal disruption or economic cost.  It would be entirely reasonable to hold another referendum in say 10 years; this time much better thought out and with clear options.  

 

If the result was Brexit, then that would be a clear mandate for an unequivocal, and permanent withdrawal from the EU.

 

Now, I await howls of derision from Brexiteers and Remainers alike.

 

 

From day one the Norway option was the most obvious solution, it is what people voted for, to leave the EU. The Irish border would never have become an issue. Art 50 specifies a max of 2 years, had the Norway option been adopted we could all be getting on with the rest of our lives.

 

Unfortunately there has been those that thought they could cherry pick an arrangement to suit their own agenda and now the cracks are so big there has to be a breakdown before there can be any repair.

[mommysboy]

41 minutes ago, tebee said:

No deal is not a practical solution.

 

The point here was (and still is) that there can be no such thing as "no deal". We have to deal. The question is whether we negotiate before or after we leave the EU – whether we do it in a controlled fashion or in crisis conditions after things have stopped working and chaos has descended. Either way, we end up with deals. 

There is no deal as such being offered- not one that anyone in their right mind would agree to. So when people mean no deal, they mean an exit without a special deal and trading under WTO tariff.  It has its appeal I must say: even better if exit day could be delayed for the sake of both parties. 

 

Given the point of Brexit is to regain sovereignty, any deal that involves ceding power to EU in return for simply trading isn't worth anything anyway.

 

If you need a dyed in the wool red to tell you this, then.....

Edited August 17, 2018 by mommysboy

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Whatever, but remember EU has no real intention of striking a reasonable trade deal.

And what exactly constitutes a "reasonable" trade deal, the EU has stated from day one that it can never be better outside the union than in.

The basic problem is that is unacceptable to the brexiteers. for some strange reason they seem to think they are entitled to the same or better conditions than as a member of the EU, and then blame the EU for not trying to negotiate that kind of arrangement.