UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

 

Could you try to explain that in English please.

 

I think what he is saying is that after this rant I will have my Belhaven

 

my thai life/lady, whatever, made a very good remark a few posts up, where he-she

said that a series of consecutive UK governments have not had a common/uniform approach to EEC/EU

thats of course a main reson for eu and uk going down different paths

 

[david555]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Wrong, the UK was never a real payer or player, more opt outs than a second hand car salesman.

Hence why this comment .... "Before they (the British) were in with a lot of opt-outs; now they are out and want a lot of opt-ins". The difference of course is that the opt-outs were controlled by the UK, whereas any opt-ins are under the control of the EU."  (Juncker..)

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, david555 said:

Hence why this comment .... "Before they (the British) were in with a lot of opt-outs; now they are out and want a lot of opt-ins". The difference of course is that the opt-outs were controlled by the UK, whereas any opt-ins are under the control of the EU."  (Juncker..)

Do you honestly think that Juncker should control anything?

[dick dasterdly]

36 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

I was not trying to defend Blair, least of all his involvement in Iraq, but I do believe that if all PMs since 1973 had shown the same commitment to Europe as he did then the EU would have been moulded more to the UK's liking and there would have been no reason for a referendum.

His 'commitment' to the eu was the same as his commitment to the Iraq war.....  All in support of his pursuit of power and money ☹️.

 

Which is why so many  previous Labour voters have given up, and are now non- voters in GEs.

[david555]

9 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you honestly think that Juncker should control anything?

This "whereas any opt-ins are under the control of the EU." for sure by the E.U. now…?. ("Juncker"... was only to name the owner of the phrase ….  ) 

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

His 'commitment' to the eu was the same as his commitment to the Iraq war.....  All in support of his pursuit of power and money ☹️.

 

Which is why so many  previous Labour voters have given up, and are now non- voters in GEs.

Don't quite understand the logic. Why would anyone not vote for Jeremy Corbyn because they disagreed with Tony Blair's policies or ambitions?

[chang50]

6 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely - it took 40 odd years for your wishes to be changed.

 

Do you think that "the winning vote" in this referendum should wait equally as long for the next referendum on the subject? 

Problem is the leavers only have to win once...there can't be any more votes once we leave.

[3 minus 2]

On 8/17/2018 at 3:44 PM, Jip99 said:

 

 

You are ALL ‘economics’........ don’t you think the issues are deeper than that ?

 

Votes were not cast just on economics......yours might have been, did you vote?’

'Issues are deeper than that' enlighten me  please..

[Stupooey]

1 hour ago, david555 said:

This "whereas any opt-ins are under the control of the EU." for sure by the E.U. now…?. ("Juncker"... was only to name the owner of the phrase ….  ) 

Juncker was not 'the owner of the phrase', it was a comment I made when quoting the original "Before they were in with a lot of opt-outs......." remark, which had been made by the current Luxembourg PM. The Juncker connection was down to another poster who, in true Brexiteer style, had ridiculed the comment because it had been made by the Luxembourg PM, who must by (his) definition be "another Juncker". Yeah, so Theresa May is "another Churchill".....

Edited August 19, 2018 by Stupooey
Two be's (or not two be's)

[david555]

2 minutes ago, Stupooey said:

Juncker was not 'the owner of the phrase', it was a comment I made when quoting the original "Before they were in with a lot of opt-outs......." remark, which had been made by the current Luxembourg PM. The Juncker connection was down to another poster who, in true Brexiteer style, had ridiculed the comment because it had been made by the Luxembourg PM, who must be by (his) definition be "another Juncker". Yeah, so Theresa May is "another Churchill".....

I just saw the quote with the ("Juncker " ), so whatever the quote is a correct one shows the present fact /situation….from whoever is the original editor ...TOP QUOTE  ? congratulations

[Stupooey]

After 61 pages, I think I finally know the answer to all the UK's problems - a military coup!!! Well, it worked in Thailand (excuse me, I think I'm going to rupture myself....)

[BwindiBoy]

27 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

'Issues are deeper than that' enlighten me  please..

Increased crime, especially sexual assaults, rapes, muggings, and burglaries. Those coming in from Romania, Lithuania and other eastern European countries have a higher proportion of criminality, when compared to the general population - my source? My local paper, when it reports on crimes; around half of those are committed by immigrants, straight up. The "new wave" of immigrants are also very racist against our population from a West Indian background.

[aright]

39 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

'Issues are deeper than that' enlighten me  please..

Certainly. This from a previous post of mine.

 

No mention of a moribund, unaccountable, bureaucratic union who have made a pigs ear of the migrant crisis.

No mention of a Union which imposes punitive tariffs on third world countries, as a consequence, denying them profitable access to a market which would make their lives better and our food cheaper, all in order to artificially protect high EU food prices.

No mention of the beneficial effect of the Euro to Germany to the detriment of others in the Eurozone. What happened to all for one and one for all?

No mention of unemployment, corruption, waste, and bailouts in contravention of Maastricht treaty rules. (Ireland -85bill E, Portugal 78bill, Spain 41bill and God knows how much to Greece)

No mention of German and other freeloaders who aren't prepared to pay the 2% support for the defense  provided by NATO but in Germany's case found millions of euros to give Russia to build a gas pipeline into Germany and managed to get preferential deals on oil prices denied other EU countries in contravention of EU rules.

No mention of dissatisfaction in the EU as evidenced by a surge in right wing parties.

No mention of Martin Selmayr whose career and promotion is indicative of everything that is wrong with the proto-Fascist EU.

[3 minus 2]

1 hour ago, BwindiBoy said:

Increased crime, especially sexual assaults, rapes, muggings, and burglaries. Those coming in from Romania, Lithuania and other eastern European countries have a higher proportion of criminality, when compared to the general population - my source? My local paper, when it reports on crimes; around half of those are committed by immigrants, straight up. The "new wave" of immigrants are also very racist against our population from a West Indian background.

So ALL points are made on race which makes you a ?.. IMO... NOTE IMO  forget imo,,,  FACT making your view biggoted therefore  UNBALANCED..

Edited August 19, 2018 by 3 minus 2

[3 minus 2]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Certainly. This from a previous post of mine.

 

No mention of a moribund, unaccountable, bureaucratic union who have made a pigs ear of the migrant crisis.

No mention of a Union which imposes punitive tariffs on third world countries, as a consequence, denying them profitable access to a market which would make their lives better and our food cheaper, all in order to artificially protect high EU food prices.

No mention of the beneficial effect of the Euro to Germany to the detriment of others in the Eurozone. What happened to all for one and one for all?

No mention of unemployment, corruption, waste, and bailouts in contravention of Maastricht treaty rules. (Ireland -85bill E, Portugal 78bill, Spain 41bill and God knows how much to Greece)

No mention of German and other freeloaders who aren't prepared to pay the 2% support for the defense  provided by NATO but in Germany's case found millions of euros to give Russia to build a gas pipeline into Germany and managed to get preferential deals on oil prices denied other EU countries in contravention of EU rules.

No mention of dissatisfaction in the EU as evidenced by a surge in right wing parties.

No mention of Martin Selmayr whose career and promotion is indicative of everything that is wrong with the proto-Fascist EU.

Frankly almost   every point is borderline absolute nonsence  the only point anywhere near validity is your first point .. and thats hardly worth the spiralling cost of us leaving....

[BwindiBoy]

10 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

So ALL points are made on race which makes you a ?.. IMO... NOTE IMO  forget imo,,,  FACT making your view biggoted therefore  UNBALANCED..

Not at all - everything I wrote is based on observations and personal experience. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept?

 

p.s. My support for our West Indian community against racists doesn't bring "balance" to my post?

[aright]

21 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

Frankly almost   every point is borderline absolute nonsence  the only point anywhere near validity is your first point .. and thats hardly worth the spiralling cost of us leaving....

You will have to do better than that. You saying something is nonsense doesn't make it nonsense if you don't supply supporting evidence. Without that you are farting peas at the moon.

[The manic]

2 hours ago, BwindiBoy said:

Increased crime, especially sexual assaults, rapes, muggings, and burglaries. Those coming in from Romania, Lithuania and other eastern European countries have a higher proportion of criminality, when compared to the general population - my source? My local paper, when it reports on crimes; around half of those are committed by immigrants, straight up. The "new wave" of immigrants are also very racist against our population from a West Indian background.

Today the British police statistics indicate that 1 in every 5 crimes are committed by foriegn born people.

Edited August 19, 2018 by The manic

[3 minus 2]

46 minutes ago, BwindiBoy said:

Not at all - everything I wrote is based on observations and personal experience. Why is that so difficult for you to understand and accept?

 

p.s. My support for our West Indian community against racists doesn't bring "balance" to my post?

EVERY  comment is based on RACE

 

Which makes you what ?

 

.

[3 minus 2]

37 minutes ago, aright said:

You will have to do better than that. You saying something is nonsense doesn't make it nonsense if you don't supply supporting evidence. Without that you are farting peas at the moon.

No basing our leaving  the worlds weathiest ever trading group on an arguement based  on  hypocricical speculative umsubsanciated crap and race is what makes it nonsence

Edited August 19, 2018 by 3 minus 2

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

No basing our leaving  the worlds weathiest ever trading group on an arguement based  on  hypocricical speculative umsubsanciated crap and race is what makes it nonsence

Reading posts like that makes me proud to be a leaver.???

[3 minus 2]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Certainly. This from a previous post of mine.

 

No mention of a moribund, unaccountable, bureaucratic union who have made a pigs ear of the migrant crisis.

No mention of a Union which imposes punitive tariffs on third world countries, as a consequence, denying them profitable access to a market which would make their lives better and our food cheaper, all in order to artificially protect high EU food prices.

No mention of the beneficial effect of the Euro to Germany to the detriment of others in the Eurozone. What happened to all for one and one for all?

No mention of unemployment, corruption, waste, and bailouts in contravention of Maastricht treaty rules. (Ireland -85bill E, Portugal 78bill, Spain 41bill and God knows how much to Greece)

No mention of German and other freeloaders who aren't prepared to pay the 2% support for the defense  provided by NATO but in Germany's case found millions of euros to give Russia to build a gas pipeline into Germany and managed to get preferential deals on oil prices denied other EU countries in contravention of EU rules.

No mention of dissatisfaction in the EU as evidenced by a surge in right wing parties.

No mention of Martin Selmayr whose career and promotion is indicative of everything that is wrong with the proto-Fascist EU.

Point one.. where are the super new trade deals the leave camp promised  going to come from.. it certainly wont be europe or the first world japan has already gone on record to say we wont give better than the ec get. Others will follow  so leaves  . oh i know tbe desperatly poor 3rd world... HYPOCRITCAL

 

Tbh i could pic EVERY point u make apart  they are ALL flawed 

 

 

But honestly ..  i cant b bothered cos i'm thinking even if i did you wouldnt accept it

[mommysboy]

9 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Entirely off topic, but do you honestly think the labour party is any more trustworthy than the tories?

 

The blair govts. proved that they were as bad as the tories - which is when I stopped voting ☹️.

Probably not. But this one would likely be radically different, which would delight some while scaring others.  But I would choose anything before this present shower.

[aright]

 

5 minutes ago, 3 minus 2 said:

Point one.. where are the super new trade deals the leave camp promised  going to come from.. it certainly wont be europe or the first world japan has already gone on record to say we wont give better than the ec get. Others will follow  so leaves  . oh i know tbe desperatly poor 3rd world... HYPOCRITCAL

 

Tbh i could pic EVERY point u make apart  they are ALL flawed 

 

 

But honestly ..  i cant b bothered cos i'm thinking even if i did you wouldnt accept it

 I can't be bothered either.

[candide]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Certainly. This from a previous post of mine.

 

No mention of a moribund, unaccountable, bureaucratic union who have made a pigs ear of the migrant crisis.

No mention of a Union which imposes punitive tariffs on third world countries, as a consequence, denying them profitable access to a market which would make their lives better and our food cheaper, all in order to artificially protect high EU food prices.

No mention of the beneficial effect of the Euro to Germany to the detriment of others in the Eurozone. What happened to all for one and one for all?

No mention of unemployment, corruption, waste, and bailouts in contravention of Maastricht treaty rules. (Ireland -85bill E, Portugal 78bill, Spain 41bill and God knows how much to Greece)

No mention of German and other freeloaders who aren't prepared to pay the 2% support for the defense  provided by NATO but in Germany's case found millions of euros to give Russia to build a gas pipeline into Germany and managed to get preferential deals on oil prices denied other EU countries in contravention of EU rules.

No mention of dissatisfaction in the EU as evidenced by a surge in right wing parties.

No mention of Martin Selmayr whose career and promotion is indicative of everything that is wrong with the proto-Fascist EU.

Proto-facist! Lol!

This assertion alone discredits your whole post. It seems you are keen to ask other people to prove their assertions, so please prove that one. I am eager (I guess I am not the only one) to know your argumentation on how the EU is proto-Facist. It's going to be fun.

[aright]

23 minutes ago, candide said:

Proto-facist! Lol!

This assertion alone discredits your whole post. It seems you are keen to ask other people to prove their assertions, so please prove that one. I am eager (I guess I am not the only one) to know your argumentation on how the EU is proto-Facist. It's going to be fun.

Firstly proto facism is not facism it is a set of conditions which might lead to facism but I'm sure you knew that already.  

"In Europe, proto-fascist parties that are anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, anti-Semitic and anti-European Union are now the second or third largest parties in a belt of formerly liberal societies that runs from Norway and Finland to the Netherlands and France. In Hungary, where the nationalist Fidesz Party already governs, the more extremist Jobbik Party is making even bigger gains.

We have been here before. European fascism was nourished in a climate of high unemployment and economic orthodoxy. After World War I, the elites of that era were more concerned with propping up currency values and collecting war debts than with the real condition of the economy.

If this sounds familiar, it is being repeated today. The European Central Bank and Europe's political leadership, under German Chancellor Angela Merkel, put the needs of the banks first and the people last. We don't have full-blown fascism yet, but we have the preconditions.

The tragedy of the present moment is that half a century of statecraft is being wrecked in the pursuit of a conception of economics that serves only bankers and bondholders. Nor surprisingly, the people are having none of it.

The mordant German playwright Berthold Brecht, on hearing that a bureaucrat had reported the government had lost the confidence of the people, suggested that perhaps the government should dissolve the people and get another one. This, of course, is what dictators do, as they trade citizens for sycophants. The EU is in grave danger of collapsing into a project of elites who have lost the confidence of the people."

https://www.alternet.org/world/inside-troubling-rise-fascist-parties-across-europe

 

 

[BwindiBoy]

2 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

EVERY  comment is based on RACE

 

Which makes you what ?

 

.

All of your "Remain argument" is based on economics, but nobody is calling you a tight <deleted>.

[candide]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Firstly proto facism is not facism it is a set of conditions which might lead to facism but I'm sure you knew that already.  

"In Europe, proto-fascist parties that are anti-immigrant, anti-Islam, anti-Semitic and anti-European Union are now the second or third largest parties in a belt of formerly liberal societies that runs from Norway and Finland to the Netherlands and France. In Hungary, where the nationalist Fidesz Party already governs, the more extremist Jobbik Party is making even bigger gains.

We have been here before. European fascism was nourished in a climate of high unemployment and economic orthodoxy. After World War I, the elites of that era were more concerned with propping up currency values and collecting war debts than with the real condition of the economy.

If this sounds familiar, it is being repeated today. The European Central Bank and Europe's political leadership, under German Chancellor Angela Merkel, put the needs of the banks first and the people last. We don't have full-blown fascism yet, but we have the preconditions.

The tragedy of the present moment is that half a century of statecraft is being wrecked in the pursuit of a conception of economics that serves only bankers and bondholders. Nor surprisingly, the people are having none of it.

The mordant German playwright Berthold Brecht, on hearing that a bureaucrat had reported the government had lost the confidence of the people, suggested that perhaps the government should dissolve the people and get another one. This, of course, is what dictators do, as they trade citizens for sycophants. The EU is in grave danger of collapsing into a project of elites who have lost the confidence of the people."

https://www.alternet.org/world/inside-troubling-rise-fascist-parties-across-europe

 

 

I see what you mean, but the EU is also the safeguard against fascism in a particular country. I am sure the Polish or Hungarian anti-fascists are very happy to be in the EU.

[aright]

5 minutes ago, candide said:

I see what you mean, but the EU is also the safeguard against fascism in a particular country. I am sure the Polish or Hungarian anti-fascists are very happy to be in the EU.

In what way is the EU a safeguard against fascism? My quoted article was published in 2014; there has been a significant  increase in extreme right wing people elected to their Parliaments since then......Italy a great example. How has the EU reacted to this ? As far as I can see they continue to sit on their hands and don't consider any reforms. I am guessing, having done no research, the UK is the only state without an extreme right wing MP.

 

This from the Telegraph

"But although mavericks of all stripes threaten the established order, the rise of Marine Le Pen fits an emerging pattern of hard-Right resurgence that should chill all those who inhabit the tolerant centre ground. Le Pen is a proto-fascist, peddling a glossy rebrand of hatred that has seduced some French voters and disarmed observers on both sides of the Channel who have greeted her achievement with something approaching respect. Yet its patina of politeness makes designer fascism more insidious, and thus more poisonous, than cruder anti-immigrant bile."

 

One more reason for my wanting to leave the club.

 

[BwindiBoy]

4 hours ago, 3 minus 2 said:

EVERY  comment is based on RACE

 

Which makes you what ?

 

.

""Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth, for being correct, for being you.  Never apologise for being correct, or for being years ahead of your time.  If you're right and you know it, speak your mind. Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth."" - Gandhi