UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[StreetCowboy]

6 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

That's just an extremely negative viewpoint. If I wanted to, I could paint just as bleak a picture about the current government if Brexit doesn't go well.

When Brexit doesn't go well, it won't matter which government is in power.  I'm not fully confident that any government will be in power.  I really don't think that Brexit is a significant step away from riots in the streets, or the next war in Europe.  Anyway, even if the Leave voters never find out, our children will.

[tebee]

Deal not going down well in commons 

 

 

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

Deal not going down well in commons 

 

 

Good.  Quite honestly.

 

We go out on a better deal, or no Brexit in my view.

[tebee]

Tive days of debate on the Meaningful vote coming up 

 

 

[tebee]

 

 How did you go bankrupt, asks a character in the Hemingway novel The Sun Also Rises. Two ways, comes the reply: “Gradually, and then suddenly.”

 

Gradually and suddenly is the story of Brexit. The 2016 vote to quit the EU has drained Britain of energy, purpose and international influence.

 

It happened gradually. Many people have not noticed. Now, suddenly, the end is in view. It may well turn out to be something worse than bankruptcy.
( emphasis mine)

 

https://www.ft.com/content/94185c52-ecb9-11e8-8180-9cf212677a57

[bomber]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

That's just an extremely negative viewpoint. If I wanted to, I could paint just as bleak a picture about the current government if Brexit doesn't go well.

the UK economy was doing well until brexit,brexit has halted it and JC will put it into reverse.

[tebee]

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I mean not 'New Labour', but traditional social democracy based around such things as nationalised utilities, increased social welfare, equality, and labour rights.

No, not Venezuela, or any form of autocracy.

'New Labour' is the project associated with Tony Blair. Old school social democracy is not where Corbyn came from, nor where he wants to go.

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Good.  Quite honestly.

We go out on a better deal, or no Brexit in my view.

There is no better deal and nor will there be one. There is only the political option of Labour going into the division chambers with the DUP and the Hard Brexiteers to bring down the Government with all of them exercising their 'do you feel lucky punk' moment, followed by a shambles.

[tebee]

31 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

There is no better deal and nor will there be one. There is only the political option of Labour going into the division chambers with the DUP and the Hard Brexiteers to bring down the Government with all of them exercising their 'do you feel lucky punk' moment, followed by a shambles.

Are the Hard Brexiters mad enough to do that though?

 

I don't know who has cursed us, but we seem to be living in interesting times....

[tomacht8]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-deal-introduce-id-cards-immigration-control-eu-andrew-adonis-free-movement-global-a8641866.html

 

As I said...

 

We don't need Brexit idiocy to control immigration.

It suggested the UK should do more within existing EU rules to tighten controls on immigration, pointing out that Britain is the only country in the bloc not to have a national ID system.

But you can not blame the EU for that.
Homemade Problem.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

It suggested the UK should do more within existing EU rules to tighten controls on immigration, pointing out that Britain is the only country in the bloc not to have a national ID system.

But you can not blame the EU for that.
Homemade Problem.

Introducing a national ID card dramatically changes the relationship between citizens and the government from one in which the citizens legitimize the government to one in which the government legitimize the citizens.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[Chomper Higgot]

And then there’s this:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-court-case-article-50-ruling-theresa-may-supreme-justice-referendum-a8652731.html

[vogie]

7 hours ago, baboon said:

I like Corbyn, as you know. However he and Labour are just as pathetic as the Tories, regarding Brexit. Great, they will vote down May's deal and replace it with...

Well they don't know. But not May's deal. But not not May's deal. Just Something Better.

Well WHAT, then?

 

Jesus Christ, the clock is still ticking and all Westminster does is bicker. Both parties are making me sick, quite frankly...

Labour are making this political, they don't give two hoots about the country baboon, Corbyn will sacrafice the country to gain power. Did you watch the Andrew Marr show on Sunday where he interviewed Richard Burgon, the Shadow Lord Chancellor, Marr asked him if he would vote againgst Mays deal, Burgon said Labour would, Marr said, Mr Burgon you would vote down any deal.

 

BTW I agree with it being voted down, I just question Labours reason.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, tebee said:

Are the Hard Brexiters mad enough to do that though?

I don't know who has cursed us, but we seem to be living in interesting times....

They might all (all being Labour, HBs and DUP) go through the voting lobby together at least once. The end of that process will be to hand the PM job to JC on a plate. "What you wish for..." and all that for the new united tribe of lemmings.

[adammike]

28 minutes ago, vogie said:

Labour are making this political, they don't give two hoots about the country baboon, Corbyn will sacrafice the country to gain power. Did you watch the Andrew Marr show on Sunday where he interviewed Richard Burgon, the Shadow Lord Chancellor, Marr asked him if he would vote againgst Mays deal, Burgon said Labour would, Marr said, Mr Burgon you would vote down any deal.

 

BTW I agree with it being voted down, I just question Labours reason.

Finally they are going to be the opposition,but how dare the parliamentary Labour party make it political whatever are they thinking.

[JAG]

10 hours ago, bomber said:

a lot are threatening to block the deal yes but i would expect a lot to change come the day,it will be very close though,JC is better at nothing,the man and his party are a complete set of clown's,exactly why the numbskull UK population will vote him in,you cannot educate the brainless.As a remainer he should be happy with the deal as his words were we have to stay in the CU,we are still in it <deleted>,it must be control of our borders he is not happy with so would he give control back to brussells? he cannot give a answer to save his life,a total IRA scumbag,worse than BJ,to hear him say he can get a better deal is hilarious.

I don't much like him either...

[vogie]

1 minute ago, adammike said:

Finally they are going to be the opposition,but how dare the parliamentary Labour party make it political whatever are they thinking.

Of course as we all know Labour are far more important than the country.

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, adammike said:

Finally they are going to be the opposition,but how dare the parliamentary Labour party make it political whatever are they thinking.

Would that be the Labour Party membership which is overwhelmingly anti-Brexit or Corbyn the pro-Brexit leader who is doing the thinking?

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

Of course as we all know Labour are far more important than the country.

That would be the country defined by the Hard Brexiteers.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

That would be the country defined by the Hard Brexiteers.

We wouldn't have a country if it was left to people like you, havn't you noticed parts of it being shipped to Brussels every year.

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

We wouldn't have a country if it was left to people like you, havn't you noticed parts of it being shipped to Brussels every year.

It would be a hard sell trying to flog off some of the more dreary bits in the North.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

It would be a hard sell trying to flog off some of the more dreary bits in the North.

Lord Snooty meets Alf Tupper.

[Scott]

A post violating Fair Use Policy has been removed.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

11 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Corbyn is a naturally talented and charismatic speaker, who revels in head to head debate.  He is happiest in front of a crowd.  May, on the other hand becomes haughty and robotic in my opinion.  It's probably my own bias, but with May it's rather like listening to the speaking clock, reassuring at first but very boring after a while.

 

Aside from this, there is the issue at hand of course.  Basically, people don't like the deal.  I don't know if there is a studio bias but remainers seem more vocal.

 

May gets rattled easily.

Never saw that myself. He is, at times, affable, but he goes off topic quite often, and can come over as pretty dry and a little condescending.

Personal bias and perspective has a lot to do with it of course, but I would agree with your summation of May, she is decidedly monotonous and haughty to listen to. Plus, much of what she says is barefaced lies.

 

Whether you agree with his politics or not, Farage trumps them all, no pun intended. Clegg and Cameron were made to look amateurish the few times they faced off. May would never dare do so and I think, of the lot, Jezza gave him the best run for his money, but for me, isn't in the same league. People underestimated NF's oratorical ability, he's a much quicker thinker-on-his-feet and far better public speaker than any other political figure in the UK, for my money. This was evidenced when he wiped the floor with the political establishment in public/live debates over the last 3 or 4 years.

I say that as a fan of his, but also as someone who has never voted UKIP, and probably never will.

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Never saw that myself. He is, at times, affable, but he goes off topic quite often, and can come over as pretty dry and a little condescending.

Personal bias and perspective has a lot to do with it of course, but I would agree with your summation of May, she is decidedly monotonous and haughty to listen to. Plus, much of what she says is barefaced lies.

 

Whether you agree with his politics or not, Farage trumps them all, no pun intended. Clegg and Cameron were made to look amateurish the few times they faced off. May would never dare do so and I think, of the lot, Jezza gave him the best run for his money, but for me, isn't in the same league. People underestimated NF's oratorical ability, he's a much quicker thinker-on-his-feet and far better public speaker than any other political figure in the UK, for my money. This was evidenced when he wiped the floor with the political establishment in public/live debates over the last 3 or 4 years.

I say that as a fan of his, but also as someone who has never voted UKIP, and probably never will.

 

Agree that Farage can catch an audience.

 

When it comes to Corbyn-May there are some aspects that have not been mentioned.

 

Corbyn is in my view better looking than May, shouldn't matter in politics but it does.

He is a good speaker.

Corbyn is a fairly decent/honest chap.

Corbyn has fairly clean/white cuffs.

Corbyn is not a fake news heavy.

Corbyn speaks out of what he believes in.

Audiences note things like this and tend to sympathise with it, unless they are anti-JC-fanatics.

 

My guess is that JC would come out on top.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

and having said the above,

 

regardless of what May, Juncker, Tusk say,

should it come to a clear ditch of the deal in HoC or a change of PM

I am sure the door would be ajar for further deal fixing,

 

not redoing the whole thing, but modifications to deal  and political cover.

 

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Lord Snooty meets Alf Tupper.

More Harold Shand vs Neville Hope.

[Grouse]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/ministers-consider-backing-norway-plus-as-brexit-plan-b

 

Norway+ as discussed by me as a possible Nash Equilbrium compromise might end up being the Gordian knot slicer

[melvinmelvin]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/26/ministers-consider-backing-norway-plus-as-brexit-plan-b

 

Norway+ as discussed by me as a possible Nash Equilbrium compromise might end up being the Gordian knot slicer

not a well written article, hope it was done in haste and as such it does not reflect average Guardian quality