UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

 

 

plus probable inflation in UK as prices rise as do index linked pensions but not sadly for Thai based UK expats - there's no way back to the country you profess to love so much yet wish to harm with what is now incontrovertible ignorance. Can I suggest a remoaner anthem we're staying in the club ...to the tune of Jilted John's we're going down the pub. Looks like it's nearly in the bag https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/30/snp-and-lib-dems-back-benn-amendment-to-prevent-no-deal-brexit .

 

 

Sham 69 "Hurry Up Harry" .... "we're going down the pub".

 

Jilted John "Jilted John (Gordon is a Moron)"

 

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

She won't head for No Deal I would bet my house on it - nor will parliament - so in that case we Bremain.......

 

 

I notice that Michael Gove has written a piece in the Daily Mail explaining why he supports May's deal, why he thinks other MPs should support it ... and his warning that if it is voted down their is a very real possibility of a second referendum and a reversal of Brexit. That might well focus a few minds ... constituencies and membership might want a clean Brexit but I don't believe they want it if it also delivers Corbyn ... punishing the economy on the lead up to an election risks Corbyn, with wealth taxes in the pipeline. This fiasco is getting interesting.

[evadgib]

The title of an early Genesis album springs to mind ('Selling England by the Pound'):

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-tell-eu-it-will-no-longer-seek-access-to-secure-aspects-of-galileo

 

Seems I'm not alone:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46407249

Edited December 1, 2018 by evadgib
Minister resigns

[adammike]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

who to blame for brexit going badly

Remain and Leave voters point the finger at one another in roughly equal proportions: 42% of Remain voters blame those who voted for Brexit, while 39% of Leave voters fault their Remain-voting counterparts.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/07/04/whos-blame-brexit-going-badly

Sterling Drops Sharply as Brexit Uncertainty Continues

So it looks like both remainers and leavers are both responsible for the value of Sterling 

 

You talk nonsense, Brexit is down to the people who voted leave,even you should be able to get your round that simple fact.

[melvinmelvin]

10 minutes ago, evadgib said:

The title of an early Genesis album springs to mind ('Selling England by the Pound'):

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-to-tell-eu-it-will-no-longer-seek-access-to-secure-aspects-of-galileo

not very informative, fairly "narrow" statement - saturday morning May marketing 

 

no mentioning of the real challenges for such a project

no mentioning of the UK units that would have to address those challenges

no mentioning of cost and time horizon

 

 

[adammike]

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

who to blame for brexit going badly

Remain and Leave voters point the finger at one another in roughly equal proportions: 42% of Remain voters blame those who voted for Brexit, while 39% of Leave voters fault their Remain-voting counterparts.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/07/04/whos-blame-brexit-going-badly

Sterling Drops Sharply as Brexit Uncertainty Continues

So it looks like both remainers and leavers are both responsible for the value of Sterling 

 

You talk nonsense, Brexit is down to the people who voted leave,even you should be able to get your round that simple fact.

 

2 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Uncertainty and Corbyn

CORB CASH FEARS 

Chance of Jeremy Corbyn-led government sparks fears among investors who ‘have withdrawn £15billion in shares’ in just two years

The fears are driving pension scheme money to be sent overseas to protect them against a run on the pound by Corbyn's hard-left agenda

THE fear of a Jeremy Corbyn government has led investors to withdraw more than £15billion in shares from the UK in the last two years, it has emerged.

City leaders told the Spectator magazine that they fear the uncertainty of his socialist agenda a lot more than Brexit.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7854483/fears-corbyn-government-15-billion-withdrawn-uk/

The only reason there is talk of JC becoming PM is because the Tory party and the brexiteers have turned  everything into a total cluster f=#k, it's not the remainers or the Labour party they don't have any power,you and the rest of the leave voters will not be allowed to wriggle out of taking the blame and the responsibility for any problems caused by Brexit.get yourself a tin hat you are gonna need it.

[AGareth2]

13 hours ago, vogie said:

Please point out to me where it says "advisory"

 

all referenda are advisory unless the Act says otherwise

[malagateddy]

Maybe similar odds as most of the Grumpy Old Git Brexiteers being around in 5 years

Says you..coming from the shooting, stabbing, acid throwing and gbh cesspit of the world[emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vinny41]

34 minutes ago, adammike said:

You talk nonsense, Brexit is down to the people who voted leave,even you should be able to get your round that simple fact.

 

The only reason there is talk of JC becoming PM is because the Tory party and the brexiteers have turned  everything into a total cluster f=#k, it's not the remainers or the Labour party they don't have any power,you and the rest of the leave voters will not be allowed to wriggle out of taking the blame and the responsibility for any problems caused by Brexit.get yourself a tin hat you are gonna need it.

Clearly  39 % of leavers that took part in the YouGov poll disagree with you as they have indicated 

who to blame for brexit going badly

Remain and Leave voters point the finger at one another in roughly equal proportions: 42% of Remain voters blame those who voted for Brexit, while 39% of Leave voters fault their Remain-voting counterparts.

As to the Labour Party  MP's They do have power it called a Vote in the House of Commons

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by vinny41

[Srikcir]

24 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

all referenda are advisory unless the Act says otherwise

I wonder how the vote would have been if the leaflet read more honestly instead, "While this is your decision, the Government is not under any legal obligation to follow the referendum results."

[rixalex]

all referenda are advisory unless the Act says otherwise

Democracy is a little more nuanced than you suggest or would like. Take for example bills being passed in to law. They have to be signed by the Queen at the final stage. Technically could she not sign a bill? Absolutely. In practical terms though, could she refuse? Absolutely not. The system works with an understanding that she will stay out of politics, even if legally she could interfere. Interfere and the system collapses.

Referendums work along the same sort of principles. Yes technically politicians could simply ignore the results. However there would be a massive price to pay for the system, if they did that, particularly since at no point prior to the referendum did anyone from the government say that the referendum would not be binding but purely advisory. To the contrary. The PM promised whichever way the vote went, or wishes would be carried out.

It shows the level of desperation in the remain argument that they are in support of the government having lied and hope that we were all duped into believing something that wasn't true, because if you can show me a person who knew prior to that vote that it was only advisory, I'll show you a liar.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vogie]

25 minutes ago, AGareth2 said:

all referenda are advisory unless the Act says otherwise

Do you have a link that states this particular referundum is "advisory"

 

Which part of 'the government will act on what you decide' are you finding difficult to understand, this was the choice we were offered, and those were the rules at the time. Just because you don't like the outcome of the referendum is of very little concern to those who voted.

The referendum was not advisory.

[vogie]

9 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I wonder how the vote would have been if the leaflet read more honestly instead, "While this is your decision, the Government is not under any legal obligation to follow the referendum results."

Lets go with reality and not what you would have liked it to say.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you have a link that states this particular referundum is "advisory"

 

Which part of 'the government will act on what you decide' are you finding difficult to understand, this was the choice we were offered, and those were the rules at the time. Just because you don't like the outcome of the referendum is of very little concern to those who voted.

The referendum was not advisory.

Regardless of whether or not the referendum was advisory, it did not suspend the democratic process.

 

As more facts come out on what Brexit means to people they will of course reconsider the choices they made.

 

The game is now politics with a better informed electorate.

 

Your continued support of the democratic process is recognised and appreciated.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Regardless of whether or not the referendum was advisory, it did not suspend the democratic process.

 

As more facts come out on what Brexit means to people they will of course reconsider the choices they made.

 

The game is now politics with a better informed electorate.

 

Your continued support of the democratic process is recognised and appreciated.

If remainers are trying to overturn a democratic decision, it is the end of democracy as we know it and more to the point as you know it.

[kwilco]

How the hard right has used media to hoodwink Or even create Brexiteers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYonSZ8s3_o&fbclid=IwAR1vy4sBrit-9CYjdiSrJZnMbWDCgLzTCxfgT_JJrdW_zaVAPAbla5AL6wI

[kwilco]

2 minutes ago, vogie said:

If remainers are trying to overturn a democratic decision, it is the end of democracy as we know it and more to the point as you know it.

That's the great thing about democracy.....they can overturn any decision they want.

[vogie]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

That's the great thing about democracy.....they can overturn any decision they want.

I think you are confusing it with a dictatorship.????

[melvinmelvin]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you have a link that states this particular referundum is "advisory"

 

Which part of 'the government will act on what you decide' are you finding difficult to understand, this was the choice we were offered, and those were the rules at the time. Just because you don't like the outcome of the referendum is of very little concern to those who voted.

The referendum was not advisory.

 

advisory re what/who? government or HoC?

 

Cameron should have moderated his language somewhat

 

instead of saying "will implement" he should have said "will do its/our utmost to implement"

thus recognising that he cannot control or bind the HoC and that the

parliament is free to ditch whatever he tries to implement, including him and the government

 

 

 

[vogie]

16 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

advisory re what/who? government or HoC?

 

Cameron should have moderated his language somewhat

 

instead of saying "will implement" he should have said "will do its/our utmost to implement"

thus recognising that he cannot control or bind the HoC and that the

parliament is free to ditch whatever he tries to implement, including him and the government

 

 

 

Cudda, Wudda, Shudda, we can only go on what we were given, nobody in the world can deny the using of the wording "will impliment" but there are many on here doing their damnest to ignore it.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, nauseus said:

Right, who stole the goal posts then?

Never let it be said that I do not own up to making an incorrect statement. I had forgot the 1997 Asian financial crisis. My statement regarding GBP/THB was incorrect. Mea culpa.

 

I should have said the pound was at its lowest for 20 years.

 

My mistake. Sorry.

 

Thanks to those who pointed out my error ????

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Cudda, Wudda, Shudda, we can only go on what we were given, nobody in the world can deny the using of the wording "will impliment" but there are many on here doing their damnest to ignore it.

 

not denying the wording, but the wording is thoroughly flawed,

the government can implement what parliament agrees to

 

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, vogie said:

If remainers are trying to overturn a democratic decision, it is the end of democracy as we know it and more to the point as you know it.

Utter hogwash.

 

Democratic decisions are overturned all the time by later democratic decisions.

 

The referendum did not suspend the democratic process.

 

 

And you know it, which is why you froth at the mouth over the idea of a second referendum.

[mogandave]

Do people that want to nationalize utilities generally think food and housing should be nationalized as well?

If not, why? It seems food and shelter are more important than lights.

[Grouse]

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Never let it be said that I do not own up to making an incorrect statement. I had forgot the 1997 Asian financial crisis. My statement regarding GBP/THB was incorrect. Mea culpa.

 

I should have said the pound was at its lowest for 20 years.

 

My mistake. Sorry.

 

Thanks to those who pointed out my error ????

 

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Never let it be said that I do not own up to making an incorrect statement. I had forgot the 1997 Asian financial crisis. My statement regarding GBP/THB was incorrect. Mea culpa.

 

I should have said the pound was at its lowest for 20 years.

 

My mistake. Sorry.

 

Thanks to those who pointed out my error ????

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

 

Reading the effect on Thailand is sobering and a timely reminder of how quickly disaster can strike in the face government hubris.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Grouse

[Orac]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

 

not denying the wording, but the wording is thoroughly flawed,

the government can implement what parliament agrees to

 

 

This has been ruled on in the High Court (the Gina Miller case) that the govt was not legally able to make the commitment - even Farage admitted it was advisory on his Andrew Marr interview with Gina Miller.

 

“GM: If parliament wanted to the Referendum Act would not have said it was advisory. The politicians lied all the way through, because they didn’t say that.
F: I take the advisory point and I would now wish to see Constitutional change to make referendums binding and that when would end this argument and there’d be no need for this case.”

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/06111601.pdf#page=7

 

 

[Grouse]

45 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

advisory re what/who? government or HoC?

 

Cameron should have moderated his language somewhat

 

instead of saying "will implement" he should have said "will do its/our utmost to implement"

thus recognising that he cannot control or bind the HoC and that the

parliament is free to ditch whatever he tries to implement, including him and the government

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/36/contents/enacted/data.htm

Edited December 1, 2018 by Grouse

[rixalex]

24 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Democratic decisions are overturned all the time by later democratic decisions.

 

They key aspect which you omit to mention is the part in which democratic decisions get implemented first and then overturned. What you desire is for a democratic decision to be overturned before it has been implemented. If this is happening all the time, as you allege, please cite some examples.

 

[vogie]

28 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Utter hogwash.

 

Democratic decisions are overturned all the time by later democratic decisions.

 

The referendum did not suspend the democratic process.

 

 

And you know it, which is why you froth at the mouth over the idea of a second referendum.

Complete baloney.

 

How can you overturn a democratic decision that hasn't even been implimented.

 

And the last time I looked my mouth was far from "frothing" infact it was frothless. It is not up to me whether we have a second referendum or not, but thereagain why the hell should we, just because the losers don't like the 'democratic' decision of the first one. Neither of the two main parties have shown any interest in having one and they are indeed on record saying they don't want one. The British public are sick and tired of referendums and just want the government to get us out of the 'funny farm'.

[rixalex]

DP

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by rixalex
DP