UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, Shaksey said:

Turnout for the referendum was a bit over two thirds of the electorate eligible to vote.

 

Just over half of those voting chose to leave.

 

So the proportion of the electorate choosing to vote leave was actually a bit more than one third.

 

So just under TWO THIRDS of the electorate DID NOT vote for Brexit.

 

A good example of why voting should be compulsory.

 

 

Good idea. But remember that 2/3 did not vote for remain either. 

 

Good luck with your compulsory voting legislation anyway!

Edited August 10, 2018 by nauseus

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

And another   and another ...................

Maybe, but that is no reason to deny the right to call for a vote. 

[nauseus]

Just now, Bluespunk said:

Maybe, but that is no reason to deny the right to call for a vote. 

Yes, people have that right - that's what many have been doing for the past 2 years.

[Lokie]

17 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

And there you have it!  The people overwhelmingly voting for Brexit were the older generation and quit honestly that is part of the problem.  It is about the future of the country and that should be down to the young and not the retired (I am one of them, old enough to be retired).  As for the Burka poll, why am I not surprised.  Thankfully your opinions are housed in the retirement world and they will eventually die away.

Ah, you seem to be making the mistake of assuming and as someone who you tell us is of retirement age you will know all about the problem that. I on the other hand am not of Government retirement age but through hard honest work was able to retire at 50 (my choice) and support myself from my private Co pension.

 

So after paying all my dues and still doing so into the coffers of HMs Govt I think I have every right to cast my vote, it is quite easy for me and my fellow colleagues who have all done the same, we voted to leave, thats it we leave.

 

The young, bless (mostly brainwashed by Corbin and his cronies 555?) 

 

My opinions are housed in the world of a law abiding, fully paid up British Citizen where are yours from?

 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

Yes, people have that right - that's what many have been doing for the past 2 years.

And there is no reason to say such a vote cannot and should not happen. 

[dunroaming]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

As far as I can see there is no third option, we voted to remain within the EU or leave, the majority voted to leave. It is up to our respective leaders to get the best 'deal' they can, if both sides cannot agree on a deal that is advantagious to both sides (whatever their reasons may be) we will just have to part.

Don't want to keep banging the same on drum and I do understand your position.  But what is being delivered by  your "leaders" is not what you voted for, especially if we end up with May's Chequers deal.  Given that, do you not see the argument for you having the final say?  When people voted for Brexit they all had a belief of what they were  voting for and that was based on what the Brexit campaigners told them.  That is not happening.

 

I am never angry at the good people on TV.  I am angry that people are not prepared to stand up and will just accept the total screw up we are left with. 

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, Rally123 said:

The people made their decision. Remoaner clutching at straws again? 

What the people want is not the issue. It is what parliament decides that matters. Do you really think "people" automatically know what is the optimum way forward? 52% of those who voted 2 years ago are unequivocally correct? 48% of those who voted 2 years ago should be ignored? Don't be so damned silly.

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Don't want to keep banging the same on drum and I do understand your position.  But what is being delivered by  your "leaders" is not what you voted for, especially if we end up with May's Chequers deal.  Given that, do you not see the argument for you having the final say?  When people voted for Brexit they all had a belief of what they were  voting for and that was based on what the Brexit campaigners told them.  That is not happening.

 

I am never angry at the good people on TV.  I am angry that people are not prepared to stand up and will just accept the total screw up we are left with. 

I can see the argument for remainers to have a final say, it may be the only way to remain within the EU. But for the life in me I cannot see any reasons it would be of use to leavers. We voted to leave to leave, to what extent we leave, we don't know, but remaining in the EU is not an option. 

[Grouse]

9 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

100% wrong. Democracy and government by perpetual plebiscite are fundamentally different.

That's why we have representative democracy

[nauseus]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

And there is no reason to say such a vote cannot and should not happen. 

We've been through this. The right to campaign for another vote is not necessarily the same as the right to have one. If the government decides to allow a separate acceptance referendum on the withdrawal terms, then I suppose they can do that but this should not nullify the result of the in/out referendum. So in that case there is not much point is there?

 

But if actual EU membership votes were to be fairly held at regular intervals, the next referendum is due at Platform 1 in 2057, so I wouldn't recommend using the waiting room.

[dunroaming]

7 minutes ago, Lokie said:

Ah, you seem to be making the mistake of assuming and as someone who you tell us is of retirement age you will know all about the problem that. I on the other hand am not of Government retirement age but through hard honest work was able to retire at 50 (my choice) and support myself from my private Co pension.

 

So after paying all my dues and still doing so into the coffers of HMs Govt I think I have every right to cast my vote, it is quite easy for me and my fellow colleagues who have all done the same, we voted to leave, thats it we leave.

 

The young, bless (mostly brainwashed by Corbin and his cronies 555?) 

 

My opinions are housed in the world of a law abiding, fully paid up British Citizen where are yours from?

  

Well I am sorry to be ageist and I do take your point about early retirement but over fifty is still old and the fact that you and your friends have retired early doesn't negate the fact that it is the young who should be having more of a say than those of us that have made our beds long ago.  It is their turn now.  Can't get my head around how you have to put this into political terms.  You think the young are brainwashed by Corbin?  What do you base that on?

 

As for me. Like you I am housed in the world of a law abiding, fully paid up British Citizen, living in the UK and proud of our multi-cultural country

[My Thai Life]

Ring any bells?

 

Imagine if, following the election of Barack Obama by 52.9% of American voters, the Republican party, which got just 45.7% of votes, demanded another election. Imagine if the Republicans described Obama's victory as a "triumph of ignorance" – brought about by an "unspeakable" and "ignorant" mass of people who should have been "swatted away by the forces of the establishment" – and insisted on holding a second election so that, this time, the voters could "get it right".

 

There would be uproar, outrage, widespread disgust at such elite disdain for the democratic process. Well, now you know how the Irish people must feel. In June this year, 53.4% of Irish voters rejected the Lisbon treaty, against 46.6% who supported it (giving the "No" camp a "sweeping victory" similar to Obama's). Yet now the Irish will be asked to vote again. EU officials' behind-doors deal to force a second referendum in Ireland reveals their utter contempt for Irish voters, and for democracy itself. It is an historic sucker punch against the sovereignty of the people.

 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

We've been through this. The right to campaign for another vote is not necessarily the same as the right to have one. If the government decides to allow a separate acceptance referendum on the withdrawal terms, then I suppose they can do that but this should not nullify the result of the in/out referendum. So in that case there is not much point is there?

 

But if actual EU membership votes were to be fairly held at regular intervals, the next referendum is due at Platform 1 in 2057, so I wouldn't recommend using the waiting room.

There is no reason to put time limits on how often referendums can be held. 

 

There is no reason another cannot be held. 

[dunroaming]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

I can see the argument for remainers to have a final say, it may be the only way to remain within the EU. But for the life in me I cannot see any reasons it would be of use to leavers. We voted to leave to leave, to what extent we leave, we don't know, but remaining in the EU is not an option. 

Vogie, you old fox!  You know exactly what I mean.  Why are Brexiteers so willing to just roll over and accept a bum deal?

 

That is rhetorical ? 

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Well I am sorry to be ageist and I do take your point about early retirement but over fifty is still old and the fact that you and your friends have retired early doesn't negate the fact that it is the young who should be having more of a say than those of us that have made our beds long ago.  It is their turn now.  Can't get my head around how you have to put this into political terms.  You think the young are brainwashed by Corbin?  What do you base that on?

 

As for me. Like you I am housed in the world of a law abiding, fully paid up British Citizen, living in the UK and proud of our multi-cultural country

You ask on what basis are the young brainwashed,  Corbynomics.

 

 

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Baerboxer said:

 

What has the EU offered - nothing. Not one suggestion other than threats and demanding large (and unsubstantiated) sums of money. 

 

The biggest (and most neglected by the media) area of contention is law. The attempted imposition of EU law on the UK after Brexit kills it - and the EU know it.

They have offered time to consider.

 

They have offered to unwind the whole thing

 

They offered several options.

 

What do Brexiters actually want?

 

WAHZZZECH!

 

I agree; but Brexit won't cure your angst or your haemerroids.

 

Poor Brexiters. 

[nausea]

The truth is maybe half think it's a great idea, and maybe half think it's the pits. To make an irreversible constitutional decision based on a simple majority, was perhaps a mistake; don't you think?

[Lokie]

8 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Well I am sorry to be ageist and I do take your point about early retirement but over fifty is still old and the fact that you and your friends have retired early doesn't negate the fact that it is the young who should be having more of a say than those of us that have made our beds long ago.  It is their turn now.  Can't get my head around how you have to put this into political terms.  You think the young are brainwashed by Corbin?  What do you base that on?

 

As for me. Like you I am housed in the world of a law abiding, fully paid up British Citizen, living in the UK and proud of our multi-cultural country

Lol, I have five children ranging in age from 23 to 33 lets just say they do not talk politics with their dad, I know a bit flimsy but that is where i mostly base the political element on, my kids seemed to be taken in by Corbins we will do this that and the other in recent two years (I said to them where is all the money coming from to do Mr Corbins amazing things??)  prior to this I don't even think any of them had any interest in politics nore casting their votes. When I told one of my degree educated daughters the last labour govt left a not in the drawer saying 'sorry no money left' she thought I was making it up... 

 

I agree with you it will matter most to the younger generations but I honestly think the UK will be better off in the long run out of europe. I voted out not based on the rubbish that was in the headlines by both sides of the argument, I voted to leave as I really believe that we will be better off in say ten years as a country. That was the consensus yesterday with the group of good friends I was with (In Manchester UK) but yes ages between 53 to 70 all lucky enough to be early retired and all have children.

[My Thai Life]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In June this year, 53.4% of Irish voters rejected the Lisbon treaty, against 46.6% who supported it (giving the "No" camp a "sweeping victory" similar to Obama's). Yet now the Irish will be asked to vote again. EU officials' behind-doors deal to force a second referendum in Ireland reveals their utter contempt for Irish voters, and for democracy itself. It is an historic sucker punch against the sovereignty of the people.

This is what the Guardian said in 2008 about the EU's "contempt" for the Irish people over the Lisbon treaty.

 

I hope all the pseudo liberals here are paying attention.

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but with the exception of Tebe (sp?) and perhaps one or two others, it's the remainers who seem to be doing the nasty talk.

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Err...there was a vote. 

 

That does not preclude another, especially one where the full consequences of leaving are clear. 

 

Why be so scared?

 

Surely you believe you’ll win again 

And that, Ladies and gentlemen is the key point. The poor Brexiters know they scraped a small victory ONCE. Never again

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, smedly said:

what deal ? you keep talking about a deal, the only deal being discussed is a trade deal, that has nothing to do with leaving the EU, like I said already - do you think there should be a referendum every time the UK negotiates a trade deal ? that would be an awful lot of referendums, you really are talking nonsense 

There should never be any referendums except to confirm constitutional issues already agreed by government. Plebiscites are not called plebiscites for nothing

[nauseus]

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

What the people want is not the issue. It is what parliament decides that matters. Do you really think "people" automatically know what is the optimum way forward? 52% of those who voted 2 years ago are unequivocally correct? 48% of those who voted 2 years ago should be ignored? Don't be so damned silly.

What the people want is exactly the issue. They expect their MPs and governments to run the country properly and show them the optimum way forward; due to division, hidden agendas and incompetence most of them can't do that. The next GE will be interesting but scary either way.

 

So 48% of those who voted 2 years ago are unequivocally correct? Right.

 

 

[nauseus]

33 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

There is no reason to put time limits on how often referendums can be held. 

 

There is no reason another cannot be held. 

Talk about cherry-picking!?

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

What the people want is exactly the issue. They expect their MPs and governments to run the country properly and show them the optimum way forward; due to division, hidden agendas and incompetence most of them can't do that. The next GE will be interesting but scary either way.

 

So 48% of those who voted 2 years ago are unequivocally correct? Right.

 

 

Intelligent points from you as always 

 

Our UK politicians are universally poor. I agree. What to do?

 

I do not think the 48% remainers are unequivocally correct. But, it would be unwise to ride roughshod 

[Bluespunk]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Talk about cherry-picking!?

No. 

 

Just reitetating the main point I’ve been making throughout this thread.  

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, gamini said:

Talks on a trade deal should be no part of leaving the EU

No comment necessary (they live amongst us!)

 

[APOLOGIES TO GAMINI. It was a SMEDELY statement  I REFERENCED]

Edited August 10, 2018 by Grouse

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Intelligent points from you as always 

 

Our UK politicians are universally poor. I agree. What to do?

 

I do not think the 48% remainers are unequivocally correct. But, it would be unwise to ride roughshod 

After so long, I suppose all leaver/remainer positions are set. I just hope that businesses on both sides can influence all the political nutters that are unfortunately in power (on both sides and no doubt including dear Mutti) to get something sensible together in terms of a trading agreement and to stop using the NI border as a threat.

 

The EU could be a lot more flexible but they are so against any good deal for the UK, which would encourage other members to break out. If the EU was so wonderful we wouldn't want to leave and there wouldn't be other potential leave candidates in the wings. Would there?

 

Me. Intelligent? Are you well, Grouse? Or just having an early happy hour? Wish I could join you to return the compliment and buy you drink for that one. I feel all woozy now. Hold me up someone!

[nauseus]

19 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No. 

 

Just reitetating the main point I’ve been making throughout this thread.  

Cake eating then. ?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

After so long, I suppose all leaver/remainer positions are set. I just hope that businesses on both sides can influence all the political nutters that are unfortunately in power (on both sides and no doubt including dear Mutti) to get something sensible together in terms of a trading agreement and to stop using the NI border as a threat.

 

The EU could be a lot more flexible but they are so against any good deal for the UK, which would encourage other members to break out. If the EU was so wonderful we wouldn't want to leave and there wouldn't be other potential leave candidates in the wings. Would there?

 

Me. Intelligent? Are you well, Grouse? Or just having an early happy hour? Wish I could join you to return the compliment and buy you drink for that one. I feel all woozy now. Hold me up someone!

Funnily enough I am sucking at the Famous Grouse teat!

[Bluespunk]

7 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Cake eating then. ?

I’m vegan. 

 

Dont touch cake. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by Bluespunk
Less sarcasm called for