UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'm fully aware of their petrol engines.  When I was considering trading in my RR last year the salespeople spent the whole time trying to convince me NOT to buy a petrol model, and to ignore the diesel "scare stories". I know modern diesels are clean, but that won't stop the value of my diesel car dropping through the floor due to public perception.

 

At JLR they clearly have thousands of diesel vehicles gathering dust, and by trying to push one on to me they lost a customer. This is probably a common occurrence.

Where can I get one cheap? I really, really want a TD5 Defender with automatic. 90.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

Clearly you don't understand what history is.

One of the great things about understanding history is we learn from our mistakes.

Thanks for the personal insult - the true hallmark of a remainer on this forum. 

 

Quite right, we learn from our mistakes. That's why the British electorate voted to leave.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I think it's s case of the lesser of two evils. Yes the younger generation get to learn about our political system but at least they get to remain in the EU until a better idea comes up

I have been waiting 40 odd years, obviously not long enough in your book. What do you feel is a reasonable time?

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Turning around a downturn in business is far less complicated than turning around a broken democratic system.

Excellent point.

 

Also much easier than turning around a mysterious journey to "ever-closer union", geography undefined and coordinates unknown.

Edited September 19, 2018 by My Thai Life

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

23 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I'm fully aware of their petrol engines.  When I was considering trading in my RR last year the salespeople spent the whole time trying to convince me NOT to buy a petrol model, and to ignore the diesel "scare stories". I know modern diesels are clean, but that won't stop the value of my diesel car dropping through the floor due to public perception.

 

At JLR they clearly have thousands of diesel vehicles gathering dust, and by trying to push one on to me they lost a customer. This is probably a common occurrence.

Where can I get one cheap? I really, really want a TD5 Defender with automatic. 90.

Hang in there, and they'll surely start discounting them! Try the CarWow website.

[rixalex]

Really?
 
I get the impression that is an expression you have just dreamed up without actually having a clue what it means or how it pertains to real life.

I get the impression that when people say they disagree with something but offer no reasoning or rationale as to why, it is they who have no clue.

PS try to not change a person's post when you quote it.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

What about imports or are we self sufficient? I also thought minimum animal husbandry standards are underpinned by EU regs

well, if brexit is realized, regardless if unregulated, with canada solution or whatever, it will lead to more bureaucracy, paper war and overall higher costs. from the end of march on, the uk is not even able to handle the existing goods flows in time. There is a lack of software, hardware and personnel. 

 

That there maybe one or the other batch of rotten meat slips through the UK border and lands on the uk dining plate is certainly not excluded.

 

Criminal UK importers and criminal EU exporters will certainly exploit the border chaos.

Edited September 19, 2018 by tomacht8

[aright]

Apparently there are drugs which are legal in Portugal and the Netherlands which aren't legal in Spain and Germany.

Ah!  I hear you ask, does this mean there needs to be a hard border?

Apparently not …..only in Ireland do you need identical laws to avoid one.   

 

 

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

I get the impression that when people say they disagree with something but offer no reasoning or rationale as to why, it is they who have no clue.

PS try to not change a person's post when you quote it.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

QED

[kwilco]

4 minutes ago, aright said:

Apparently there are drugs which are legal in Portugal and the Netherlands which aren't legal in Spain and Germany.

Ah!  I hear you ask, does this mean there needs to be a hard border?

Apparently not …..only in Ireland do you need identical laws to avoid one.   

 

 

I think you'll find the situation is a bit more nuanced than you have allowed for.

[aright]

11 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I think you'll find the situation is a bit more nuanced than you have allowed for.

With respect!  Very often people confuse simple with simplistic. The nuance is lost on many.

[adammike]

6 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Thanks for the personal insult - the true hallmark of a remainer on this forum. 

 

Quite right, we learn from our mistakes. That's why the British electorate voted to leave.

And when TM called an election and asked the electorate to give her a majority to push through brexit they didn't give her a majority,they learned from their mistake in voting for brexit in the referendum.

[nauseus]

7 minutes ago, adammike said:

And when TM called an election and asked the electorate to give her a majority to push through brexit they didn't give her a majority,they learned from their mistake in voting for brexit in the referendum.

No. The initial social welfare policy announced in the manifesto lost a big lead. By design or not I'm not sure.

[kwilco]

Satire from the League of Gentlemen 

Edited September 20, 2018 by kwilco

[rixalex]

4 hours ago, adammike said:

And when TM called an election and asked the electorate to give her a majority to push through brexit they didn't give her a majority,they learned from their mistake in voting for brexit in the referendum.

If that were the case, why did the Conservatives still win more seats than any other party, and how come more than 80% of the electorate voted for parties in favour of implementing Brexit, with a mere 7% voting for the party against Brexit?

 

If the public had "learned from the mistake of voting for Brexit", as you believe, why didn't the Lib Dems stroll to victory?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, aright said:

In light of the feelings of 52% of the population of the UK and the progressive voting feelings of people in the EU perhaps you could outline the advantages of staying in the EU in political and social terms. We have heard what you don't want ad nauseus nauseum, all be it conjecture, we have heard you describe the EU as imperfect but seem to be unable after 40 odd years to tell me who I should vote for, to effect this change. Please tell all.

These reasons have been told many times. Perhaps you have not been listening?

 

The good thing about Brexit is that these EU values and freedoms we have are new lot better known by us EU citizens. We will not repeat UK's mistakes.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, aright said:

Firstly your post referred to SME's which aren't famous for producing complex medical equipment but be that as it may you continue to feed project fear.

Existing products already have a CE mark . New qualifying products would need to  get one but that rule would apply should we be part or apart from the European Union. I am sure British Manufacturers developing category goods would already have had this process in train for the last 2 years

 

That is a distorted way of putting it, and you are wrong, many SME's are subject to CE marking. As a member of the EU, UK companies get their product tested and certified by a notified body in the UK. Once out of the EU companies will have to send their product to a notified body within the EU. As of March 2019, all UK certification will become invalid and have to be renewed.

The UK notified bodies made a significant contribution to the UK economy by testing and certifying product from outside the UK, but brexit has put the 200 or so notified bodies in the UK out of business.

In the early days of the Gas Appliance Directive, the Germans refused to recognise the CE mark using local installations requirements as an excuse. I had to have our product tested at the University of Karlsrhue and what many may fail to realise is that during the testing several visits to the testing centre may be required, Germany was a bit more awkward than the normal testing centre near Slough. You have to bear in mind this testing is in respect of new product and changes may be required to comply with the standards, many companies may well have to build their own laboratory to prepare for submission.

Post brexit the whole process is going to be much more difficult and expensive for UK manufacturers, but of course feel free to brand it as project fear or any other title you can dream up.

[rixalex]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

These reasons have been told many times. Perhaps you have not been listening?

 

The good thing about Brexit is that these EU values and freedoms we have are new lot better known by us EU citizens. We will not repeat UK's mistakes.

UK's biggest mistake was jumping on board with the EU project as its scope got gradually wider, without bothering itself with whether or not that is what the people wanted, and without bothering to address genuine problems and concerns. Maybe had they listened, we wouldn't be where we are.

 

If your country is listening to its people, well then yes, maybe you won't make the mistake we did. I know one thing for certain though, the EU isn't listening, even with the benefit of this wake-up call. I also know that the rise of extremist political groups throughout Europe doesn't suggest harmony and happy days ahead. Time will tell.

 

[sandyf]

So much for TM - my deal or no deal.

 

The president of the European Council has told Theresa May to go back to the drawing board and rework her plans for Britain’s economic relationship with the EU after Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-theresa-may-brexit-deal-donald-tusk-talks-uk-leave-a8544956.html

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

57 minutes ago, oilinki said:

These reasons have been told many times. Perhaps you have not been listening?

 

The good thing about Brexit is that these EU values and freedoms we have are new lot better known by us EU citizens. We will not repeat UK's mistakes.

Hehehehe, 'EU values and freedoms'.

 

'In light of the feelings of 52% of the population of the UK and the progressive voting feelings of people in the EU perhaps you could outline the advantages of staying in the EU in political and social terms.'

 

I haven't thus far really read anything along these lines from you or anyone else, maybe I missed it, but I have been reading quite carefully. Please prove myself and others wrong by doing us a service and listing the real advantages of remaining inside the EU/EEA. Not conjecture or your opinion, but tangible, evidenced and historic facts for being within the EEA/EU. I have seen precious little from anyone purporting to be a remainer and pro EU, as to what the benefits are of staying within this decaying bloc. besides the fact that leaving will be a real headache and will cost certain people some of their income for a while until we disentangle ourselves from customs and legal frameworks and re-establish new ones, which we will of course do, in time.

 

'It's the largest customs union/trade bloc in the world' yada yada yada, that's a tired and wholly vacuous statement to make as, though it is technically true,  it's also true that it's the most stagnant trade bloc / area in the world; on the verge of bankruptcy with a dying currency that now has a number or member states which are effectively debt colonies and are already or about to experience massive fiscal & social issues. 

 

So, pray tell, what are the benefits to any nation remaining part of the EEA/EU?

I would like to read some bullet pointed, empirical reasons for any nation to remain or join the bloc - as I and others have done for the counter argument. These reasons exist, few and dwindling in number as they are, but some pros exist.

 

Could you or anyone else on the remain side name, what, to you, are chief among them?

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Hehehehe, 'EU values and freedoms'.

 

'In light of the feelings of 52% of the population of the UK and the progressive voting feelings of people in the EU perhaps you could outline the advantages of staying in the EU in political and social terms.'

 

I haven't thus far really read anything along these lines from you or anyone else, maybe I missed it, but I have been reading quite carefully. Please prove myself and others wrong by doing us a service and listing the real advantages of remaining inside the EU/EEA. Not conjecture or your opinion, but tangible, evidenced and historic facts for being within the EEA/EU. I have seen precious little from anyone purporting to be a remainer and pro EU, as to what the benefits are of staying within this decaying bloc. besides the fact that leaving will be a real headache and will cost certain people some of their income for a while until we disentangle ourselves from customs and legal frameworks and re-establish new ones, which we will of course do, in time.

 

'It's the largest customs union/trade bloc in the world' yada yada yada, that's a tired and wholly vacuous statement to make as, though it is technically true,  it's also true that it's the most stagnant trade bloc / area in the world; on the verge of bankruptcy with a dying currency that now has a number or member states which are effectively debt colonies and are already or about to experience massive fiscal & social issues. 

 

So, pray tell, what are the benefits to any nation remaining part of the EEA/EU?

I would like to read some bullet pointed, empirical reasons for any nation to remain or join the bloc - as I and others have done for the counter argument. These reasons exist, few and dwindling in number as they are, but some pros exist.

 

Could you or anyone else on the remain side name, what, to you, are chief among them?

 

I'm planning to live and work in Southern Europe where both the weather and the living costs are reasonable to enjoy a cosy life. EU makes this possible for me.

 

I also like Euro as it's stable and major world currency. I like I don't have to exchange money when I'm in Eurozone.

 

I think it's good to consolidate various services between EU countries. Not every country have to invent the wheel, or rules by itself. There can be general set of EU laws which then are improved by local laws, if needed. 

 

I think it's good to have common projects in sciences and development. This way we don't waste resources doing the same thing concurrently in several locations. 

 

I don't like borders, which restricts my freedom to move around. The borders around the world has not stopped me to travel around, but those have made it more difficult. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Guest

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

25 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I'm planning to live and work in Southern Europe where both the weather and the living costs are reasonable to enjoy a cosy life. EU makes this possible for me.

 

I also like Euro as it's stable and major world currency. I like I don't have to exchange money when I'm in Eurozone.

 

I think it's good to consolidate various services between EU countries. Not every country have to invent the wheel, or rules by itself. There can be general set of EU laws which then are improved by local laws, if needed. 

 

I think it's good to have common projects in sciences and development. This way we don't waste resources doing the same thing concurrently in several locations. 

 

I don't like borders, which restricts my freedom to move around. The borders around the world has not stopped me to travel around, but those have made it more difficult. 

 

 

Some fair points

 

These are in fact the only points I would agree, or partly agree, on being the advantages. It's just a shame that the disadvantages outweigh them by such an amount and are so much more dire than the advantages are beneficial or unique. 

 

Visa free travel, (arguably) enhanced and easier co-operation between scientific research departments and other similar ventures, yup. The visa free travel and ability to work and live across Europe without a visa, for me, was always the big bonus, and one thing that I found appreciable about the EU project. Sadly I never really took advantage of it. I love Italy (southern Europe in general) and would have loved to have lived there without it depending on me being granted and having to  renew a visa. But if I have to do so in the future, so be it, not the end of the world. This part of the globe is in real social and financial crisis at the moment, outside of a few wealthy bubbles, in great part due to EEA/EU policies, however. So finding work and living there might be difficult.

 

In any case, the things you've listed above are very few, as I already agreed is the case AND more importantly, do not require an EU/EEA to exist or to continue. The only thing that would require some kind of federal-supranational body for it to work extensively - is visa free travel/work across the continent.

 

The Euro is a terrible idea as a currency and is in it's death throws, it'll soon become defunct, there's literally mountains of evidence for that, it's stable to a point, for now (artificially so), but it will not be long before the rigor mortis sets in, so I disagree with you on that one in particular.

 

Thank you for answering my request.

Edited September 20, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, rixalex said:

UK's biggest mistake was jumping on board with the EU project as its scope got gradually wider, without bothering itself with whether or not that is what the people wanted, and without bothering to address genuine problems and concerns. Maybe had they listened, we wouldn't be where we are.

 

If your country is listening to its people, well then yes, maybe you won't make the mistake we did. I know one thing for certain though, the EU isn't listening, even with the benefit of this wake-up call. I also know that the rise of extremist political groups throughout Europe doesn't suggest harmony and happy days ahead. Time will tell.

 

I personally want EU to become United States of Europe. One country with multiple states.  Common border, military, general services, with states being able to have partial autonomy. It would strengthen EU's place in the world and we wouldn't have to waste money on each states own defence etc. Instead we could put the money on better use in education, healthcare, infrastructure and other general projects. Now that UK is leaving EU, new changes might be possible to plan and execute. 

 

My country leaders are listening to the people. They have to, or else they'll see a shorter career in politics. Today we can even communicate (two way) with some of the ministers on twitter ?

My country's benefit is that we have real multiparty parliament. No party can behave in ugly bipartisan way, as they know, the next election cycle, they might have to work together. 

 

EU also listens to the people. EU is a larger entity, but it's principles changes in time. Social immigration is often complained about EU. Well, now EU has getting a lot tougher to the social immigration. That's a step forward. This also reduces power from the extremist political groups. 

 

Anyway. I'm happy we have EU and I will support it as long as EU supports my freedoms and values.

 

 

 

[tebee]

Is Theresa May totally ignorant  or just complete  immune to the feelings of others.

 

At the meeting last night talking about the Irish backstop,  she told other EU leaders including the Irish Taoiseach  " how would you feel if your country was carved in two?"

 

And people wonder why the EU is not more sympathetic to her....

 

https://www.ft.com/content/272457a4-bbef-11e8-8274-55b72926558f

[rixalex]

4 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I personally want EU to become United States of Europe. One country with multiple states.  Common border, military, general services, with states being able to have partial autonomy. It would strengthen EU's place in the world and we wouldn't have to waste money on each states own defence etc. Instead we could put the money on better use in education, healthcare, infrastructure and other general projects. Now that UK is leaving EU, new changes might be possible to plan and execute. 

 

My country leaders are listening to the people. They have to, or else they'll see a shorter career in politics. Today we can even communicate (two way) with some of the ministers on twitter ?

My country's benefit is that we have real multiparty parliament. No party can behave in ugly bipartisan way, as they know, the next election cycle, they might have to work together. 

 

EU also listens to the people. EU is a larger entity, but it's principles changes in time. Social immigration is often complained about EU. Well, now EU has getting a lot tougher to the social immigration. That's a step forward. This also reduces power from the extremist political groups. 

 

Anyway. I'm happy we have EU and I will support it as long as EU supports my freedoms and values.

 

 

 

If the EU shares your vision of a United States of Europe, with shared military and services, and all the rest, well then i think the tide of public opinion in the UK would well and truly move in favour of leave, in more substantial numbers than 2016. I don't think there is support for that sort of EU really at all in the UK.

 

As for the EU listening and making changes to immigration, if what you are saying is true, the extremist political groups should be shrinking and becomes more irrelevant. Doesn't seem to be any evidence of that so far.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

2 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If the EU shares your vision of a United States of Europe, with shared military and services, and all the rest, well then i think the tide of public opinion in the UK would well and truly move in favour of leave, in more substantial numbers than 2016. I don't think there is support for that sort of EU really at all in the UK.

 

As for the EU listening and making changes to immigration, if what you are saying is true, the extremist political groups should be shrinking and becomes more irrelevant. Doesn't seem to be any evidence of that so far.

Because, in reality, the opposite is happening.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If the EU shares your vision of a United States of Europe, with shared military and services, and all the rest, well then i think the tide of public opinion in the UK would well and truly move in favour of leave, in more substantial numbers than 2016. I don't think there is support for that sort of EU really at all in the UK.

 

As for the EU listening and making changes to immigration, if what you are saying is true, the extremist political groups should be shrinking and becomes more irrelevant. Doesn't seem to be any evidence of that so far.

 

You are right. UK is a very conservative country and would not be happy about new developments in the EU society. It's also how EU has been presented to the people. Nigel Farage getting headlines in rather low quality newspapers, changes people's minds.

 

After UK is out of EU, the rest of the countries can possibly feel more unity and can plan for the future a bit better.

 

The immigration issue is being taken seriously. Even Merkel, who was pro-immigrants at some point, has hardened her stance against illegal immigration. Naturally there were some folks who laughed at her, for changing her point of view, but those are people who are unable to change their views when being presented with new evidence. 

 

This same happens in many other EU countries, even without having extreme socialists (alt right) in power. 

 

So perhaps we'll get common border forces to make sure that illegal immigrants can't get in so easily and then hop from one country to another to try their luck in the next country.

 

 

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Because, in reality, the opposite is happening.

Someone call Japan!

 

[BwindiBoy]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

I'm planning to live and work in Southern Europe where both the weather and the living costs are reasonable to enjoy a cosy life. EU makes this possible for me.

 

I also like Euro as it's stable and major world currency. I like I don't have to exchange money when I'm in Eurozone.

 

I think it's good to consolidate various services between EU countries. Not every country have to invent the wheel, or rules by itself. There can be general set of EU laws which then are improved by local laws, if needed. 

 

I think it's good to have common projects in sciences and development. This way we don't waste resources doing the same thing concurrently in several locations. 

 

I don't like borders, which restricts my freedom to move around. The borders around the world has not stopped me to travel around, but those have made it more difficult. 

 

 

Except for the weather, pretty much every "advantage" comes down to finances - even Visa free travel, ultimately.  Brexit is about so much more than finances.

[rixalex]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

 

You are right. UK is a very conservative country and would not be happy about new developments in the EU society. It's also how EU has been presented to the people. Nigel Farage getting headlines in rather low quality newspapers, changes people's minds.

 

It's also how EU has been presented to the people.

 

Never mind Farage, the way you are presenting it, with a shared military and all, i really don't think you would get very far in the UK with that.

 

In fact, even the ardent remainers on here, with their comments about the EU army being nothing but anti-EU propaganda, might be shifting uncomfortably in their chairs, hearing what you are saying.