Training Your Dog

[Nienke]

Hi,

I think Macb and Bina have given quite nice answers to the questions you've asked already.

As you state that the dog is quite nervous and will 'take refuge' with your gf, I would be very careful with giving any correction when training on the lead, though. IMO it's better to make yourself quite interesting in the eyes of the dog through play, treats, nice walks and anything else that the dog really likes and is acceptable for you.

As for your gf: it is very possible that she is reluctant to get involved in training the dog, because she hasn't a clue of how doing this. It makes me think of myself when people start talking about computer stuff in cyberspace language of which I have just an iny-tiny bit knowledge. My first reaction is usually that it puts me of. Stupid, I know. However, occasionally I come across a person who very patiently is willing to explain me certain stuff, and a whole new world opens up, and then I even start enjoying it.

Through first showing your bf, by just doing some training with the dog in her presence, that you actually can teach it all funny tricks (like just a simple sit or down, shake hand, walk on hind paws or roll over, with a little happy doggy that really enjoys doing so), and then slowly involving her in the sessions, she might find out that she also is capable of making her dog follow up commands.

Fairly often I come across people, who actually are quite shy to do any training with their dog, afraid of making mistakes. But once they see that they themselves also can make the dog do things, such as getting his/her full attention with an enthusiastic wagging tail, they more too often start enjoying to work with their animal.

Wish you good luck,

Nienke

Manager LuckyDogs Ltd. Prt.

(see profile for website)

[wileycoyote]

This is a good useful thread

Wiley Coyote

[macb]

Thanks for that, I am pleased to have the support of Bina and Nienke on here :

[triffid]

Yes, the advice has indeed been both helpful and interesting.

Since the dog is no more tha 5 months old, it is nervous and prone to keep away from me, it treats my girlfriend as refuge, I have decided that

1) I will tell my girlfriend to avoid giving it much attention

2) I will suspend training or the remotest show of displeasure for a while and concetrate on gaining its confidence (even if not its affection)

3) I will ensure whenever I'm not away to be the one that gives it its daily food

4) After a few weeks of this - and hopefully having gained that confidence - I will contemplate the training on a leash.

5) Until then training will be no more than reward whenever it comes when called; and petting whenever it voluntarily approaches me.

The only complication is that I am not going to around continuously - a couple of absences of 10 days or so will come up in the next 2 months. I hope that time with my girlfriend will not undo my attempt at 'bonding' with it.

And all the while the MinPin is getting used to a carefree, marauding life around the fairly extensive grounds. I know from the one occasion I tried it that the leash is going to be a very rude shock for him when it eventually does come. But until then it'll be the techniques and regime indicated by Bina and Nienke.

Let's see.

And thanks, everyone.

One other thought (or, complication perhaps) comes to mind. I have another pup of a similar age - a thai mongrel from the moo ban that I adopted. Will it help or be a hindrance if I train it before (and in sight of) the nervous MinPin? Or with it? Or leave that for afterwards? Or not bother to do it - given that it is destined anyway to live outdoors, and already does come when called without fail?

[Nienke]

Hi Triffid,

IMO you can start obedience training (starting with attention training) with the minpin already, provided the training sessions are fun with lots of fun for both the dog AND you and rewards for the dog. If the minpin is not used to a lead, you can start with a long lead of not less than 5 meters which should be slack at all times. When the dog enjoys these training sessions, it will speed up the bonding with you AND the dog will remember after you come back from a trip. After all, each training session means fun time with you! Each training session takes only 5 minutes at the time, several times a day, if possible.

Of course, most important part is NEVER EVER correct the dog, not even the slightest tug on the lead!

It should be no problem whatsoever, to start up training with the Thai dog as well. However, when the dogs really enjoy the training sessions, you will see that when one is loose it will be hard to train the other one as the first one will be right there with his nose in between. This means you need to tie up one dog or in another way confined when you train the other one. Only later on, when both dogs respond well to commands, you can start training them together. Of course, during daily life, when you call one dog and they happen to come both enthousiastically, you should reinforce both good behaviors.

Another option is, provided that the Thai dog is not wary of you, that you start up training with him. The minpin will observe this training and see that the Thai dog has lots of fun. It happens more too often that the anxious dog will get curious and want to have part in the fun. Be careful with corections here, as also this the minpin will observe. Therefore, the training sessions and daily life interaction with the Thai dog should be positive reinforcement.

If you go to my profile and click on my website, you can find the following articles (both in English and Thai):

Teaching the basic commands

Guidelines towards a well-behaved dog

Starting out right with your new puppy

You might want to print the Thai version and show it to your g/f.

Hope it will be of help to you.

Nienke

LuckyDogs Resort and Training Center

(also cat boarding)

[triffid]

Thanks for that further and particular advice, Nienke.

Just now the minpin is miserable because my gf is away. Moreover it is still very wary of me (my fault for having corrected it in my early, ignorant days - even though that's now 3 weeks ago). I want to wait for her to get back so the minpin feels secure, before I consider the leash, even for 5 minutes at a time. So for the week I'll concentrate on calling, petting and rewards - and hope for progress in the bonding process. I'll also use the time to read your training page.

After that I'll get on with your training advice - probably with both dogs simultaneously.

I assume the minpin is showing typical traits of the breed, and not that I have a specially difficult dog or that my gf or I are paying a price for bad initial mistakes.

Thanks again.

[solent01]

A follow up for our Pack, (sorry McB, I know you don't train to the pack ideal, but it sure as hel_l has worked for us)

@Nienke, A very big Chego is fantastic, we now have a dog that we can control (you showed us how to work him) he never pulls on the lead, sits when he is told (on the walk he sits when we stop), when told he goes to the down almost instantly, and can stay until told free.

After saying that, he will never be the family pet you can just let run around and mix with people, but as you know, thats not what we were looking for...... We got the dog we needed. And with the right signal he WILL go in.

Thankyou for your help

PS. We have found that he needs 2 x 1.5 hr walks a day to maintain a good state of mind, without the double dose of excercise he seems to get too excited (and can get some what unpredictable).

[Nienke]

How nice to hear/read that things have worked out with Chego. Must admit that I was thinking of how he was doing. So a big thanks for the update!

Chego is a very lucky dog that he has found his home with you. Wow, two times a day 1.5 hr walk, not many dogs get that privilege! He must look extremely strong.

I also think that both of you need a big pat on the shoulder, as it is YOU who have trained/educated your own dog, I only gave the guidelines.

Nienke

[rockchick]

Mods I wonder if you would consider pinning this Topic:

As it is prevelant to the dog owners, and not everone uses the search feature or scrolls through all the Topics

Your decision of course

YES Please Mods! Pin Boy!

sorry to be ignorant but what exactly is 'pinning the topic' and is the training info here carried on somewhere else?? my dog actually seems to be getting somewhere with this

[steelepulse]

Pinning the topic is just forum board speak meaning, this thread will always be towards the top and not fade away as a normal thread.  A good way to carry on the topic is to ask a quesiton in this thread if it is obedience related.  Otherwise you could always start up a new thread in this forum.  It may or may not get answered on a timely basis, so if you ask on a pinned thread, it will stick around and be seen.

Cheers

[pab]

Macb may we thank you sincerely for all your input.

We are getting our 2 new puppies at the end of next month and your training expertise is greatly appreciated.

Once we have our puppies (german shepherd/rottie cross) we will do our best to follow your helpful instructions and training trips.

TRAINING THE DOWN

Now we have our dog walking to heel we can incorperate the down as part of his walking to heel routine:

It is easier initially to put your dog in the down from the sit posistion, so we are walking to heel we stop give the command SIT. Now from this position combine the Command DOWN as you take the lead to the ground underneath his head and with your left hand on his shoulders pushing him gently down once then when down dont forget the praise keep him there when you stand, now bring the lead up and command sit, then you can move on walking to heel.

In time you will have walking to heel, sit, and down.

DOWN is considered the safe position never recall him from the down, if you dog is down place him in the sit first then recall him.

You will find as you progress that you dog will sit on his own when you stop and will go down when you say.

The thing to rember is not try to do to much and bore the dog. always remeber praise and play at the end of a session

More soon

[dingdongrb]

I would like to know why the dog experts on this thread have not mentioned the use of 'hand signals' to train dogs instead of the age old voice commands? I have found that after training numerous field dogs over the years hand signals are much more effective than voice commands. Also having a few house pets over the years that had gone deaf the hand signals came in rather handy.

Did you know that you can actually train your dog where to chit and piss? This comes in handy when confined to a small yard or not wanting to scour the whole yard cleaning dog waste.

[macb]

I would like to know why the dog experts on this thread have not mentioned the use of 'hand signals' to train dogs instead of the age old voice commands? I have found that after training numerous field dogs over the years hand signals are much more effective than voice commands. Also having a few house pets over the years that had gone deaf the hand signals came in rather handy.

Did you know that you can actually train your dog where to chit and piss? This comes in handy when confined to a small yard or not wanting to scour the whole yard cleaning dog waste.

what you do is in cooperate the hand signals with the voice commands from the start of training: trying to describe hand signals with text is difficult I didnt want to go to deep with my training thread. And yes i do know about dog toilet training

[Slip]

I've been reading this thread with interest for a while now. I have a question for the experts- My dog is pretty good: Intelligent and learns quickly although a little wilful - But in high stress situations his training seems goes out of the window as other have mentioned.

However, my question is specific to these situations. My dog seems to have quite naturally picked up this sort of sequence that MacB suggests, I guess as a result of the way I trained him, (I.e. 'sit' before 'come here', then 'heel', then 'down' over time) where he will come to me before he sits (usually quite slowly). Sometimes I just want him to sit immediately at a distance rather than come then sit.

Do any of you guys have any suggestions how to over-ride this behaviour? It's usually in high stress situations such as another dog when I want him to respond very specifically as because as I said, he tends to lose focus quickly in these situations and it's handy to be able to grab him.

Additionally do Bina, Macb, Nienke have any views on harnesses as opposed to collars or choke chains?

Thx

Slip

[macb]

I've been reading this thread with interest for a while now. I have a question for the experts- My dog is pretty good: Intelligent and learns quickly although a little wilful - But in high stress situations his training seems goes out of the window as other have mentioned.

However, my question is specific to these situations. My dog seems to have quite naturally picked up this sort of sequence that MacB suggests, I guess as a result of the way I trained him, (I.e. 'sit' before 'come here', then 'heel', then 'down' over time) where he will come to me before he sits (usually quite slowly). Sometimes I just want him to sit immediately at a distance rather than come then sit.

Do any of you guys have any suggestions how to over-ride this behaviour? It's usually in high stress situations such as another dog when I want him to respond very specifically as because as I said, he tends to lose focus quickly in these situations and it's handy to be able to grab him.

Additionally do Bina, Macb, Nienke have any views on harnesses as opposed to collars or choke chains?

Thx

Slip

in my opinion if your dog is slowly returning to you then he is unhappy:

Solution never be afraid to go back to the beginning. Sit the dog in front of you with collar and lead attached give the command come and at the same time a sharp tug on the lead towards you dont go over the top as he comes to you verbal praise is needed. your praise voice must be a different happy tone to your command voice timing is most important.

Harness no good for training good for tracking.

Distance control comes later get the recall first then we will discuss distance control: Keep your dog happy when training its must be fun for you and your dog

[Nienke]

Hhhmmmm, with all respect I disagree with the training method Macb advices.

Let's have a look how the dog perceives this: the dog hears the recall or sit command and at the same time it feels a most unpleasant sharp tug in its neck or push on the butt.

Compare this with yourself: you hear someone calling you or someone tells/asks you to sit and at the same time you recieve a sharp unpleasant push in your back. When this happens a couple of times, how would you feel when you hear someone calling these cues?

If the dog does not move immediately or fast enough it will receive another unpleasant tug in the neck or on the butt, while again hearing the same cue.

What happened here is that the cues, which at first were just words/sounds with no meaning at all, have gained an unpleasant meaning to the human/dog.

The dog eventually will find out that he can avoid this unpleasant experience by moving in the direction of the one who calls or to sit. But in such a way the dog is more busy with this avoidance behavior than with learning the meaning of the cue and that following up the cue is fun whether that is close by or far away.

When forcing a dog that has gained a place high in the hierarchy, higher than the one who commands, while he has something else in mind then it can have quite unpleasant consequences for the one who's applying this force.

Correcting or forcing an insecure or fearfull dog will increase the insecurity or fearfulness and slows down the learning process at that moment or can even completely block it.

Of course, you can train the dog in another way which is much more fun to the dog and thus where the dog is more willing to obey quickly. Furthermore, making a dog obey does not happen by training it on the training field only. A lot depends on the daily interaction between owner/s and dog where the dog should learn to perceive the owner as higher rank.

In answer to Slip's question about the harness vs (choke) collars. I prefer to train with leather or nylon collars above training with a harness. But in fact it shouldn't make much of a difference if you use training methods that are not punishment/correction based.

And to dingdongrob's post: I'm fully aware of the toilet training techniques (same as macb's reply) and that dogs are more alert on body signals than on word cues. In my training sessions I always start with handsignals.

Nienke

[Slip]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think I was not all that clear in my post macb. In training sessions and usually he is happy to come and does so quickly (although he still comes and then sits, rather than just sit when he is at distance). However, I'm talking about everyday situations when he is off the lead and out in public. There are sometimes other dogs around (not soi dogs in our green and pleasant soi, but dogs who live in other houses and whose owners have left the gates open). He is very friendly and wants to run off to play with them. In these situations he is slow to return (and sometimes doesn't), although I'm usually asking him to sit rather than come.

Another example is when we walk him at night, we have to run the gauntlet of barking dogs behind their gates. He is actually much happier on the lead in this situation and stays close with little or no pulliing. However if he is off the lead he will increase his pace, I presume as he's scared, and in this situation he will not follow any instruction at all but ends up running as far as our gate where he stops and waits for us.

Does this have any impact on your advice?

Harness no good for training good for tracking.

I'm sorry I don't understand this. What do you mean by tracking?

[macb]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I think I was not all that clear in my post macb. In training sessions and usually he is happy to come and does so quickly (although he still comes and then sits, rather than just sit when he is at distance). However, I'm talking about everyday situations when he is off the lead and out in public. There are sometimes other dogs around (not soi dogs in our green and pleasant soi, but dogs who live in other houses and whose owners have left the gates open). He is very friendly and wants to run off to play with them. In these situations he is slow to return (and sometimes doesn't), although I'm usually asking him to sit rather than come.

Another example is when we walk him at night, we have to run the gauntlet of barking dogs behind their gates. He is actually much happier on the lead in this situation and stays close with little or no pulliing. However if he is off the lead he will increase his pace, I presume as he's scared, and in this situation he will not follow any instruction at all but ends up running as far as our gate where he stops and waits for us.

Does this have any impact on your advice?

Harness no good for training good for tracking.

I'm sorry I don't understand this. What do you mean by tracking?

First a harness well this limits the correction of your dog he is used to the collar now:

Tracking is a term we use when teaching a dog to follow human scent.

Nienke is a good trainer but our training methods differ I am used to Police Training which was successful over many years with many dogs. But I think we both respect each others methods

Remember this is Thailand with many dogs running loose (Soi Dogs) that constantly battle for dominance, even Thai household dogs are allowed to run riot .

Try a whistle and use it with your come command.

[Slip]

Thanks Macb I'll give that a go.

[TTTon1]

Hi, glad I found that thread.

1st of all my situation, Iam 21 and live in BKK with my gf. We have 4, yes FOUR and I already regret that dogs. All about 3-4 months of age.

A boxer female and 3 males wich inckude a Pittbull Terrier and miniature and a Chihuaha.

Personally iam pretty unhappy with the Situation and have worries. Less so my gf of course wich I should have known.

Theres also quite some frustration building up.

So we are living in a 2 storey house with a smallish garden.

The dogs arent allowed upstairs or to go on the sofa.

I try to be an authority person and a friend to them.

I worked very little with them as I found it very difficult for various reasons.

1. The Boxer is very agile and smart shes willing to learn and like to play.

2. The Terrier is very desinterested. When I want to give him some food he rather goes and takes the food of another dog, when I try to get his attention he often will punish me with putting me on ignore. It improved a little though.

3. The Miniature is okay and a little like the boxer and the chihuaha is "stupid" please dont misunderstand but it appears to me this way. Guess its the breed.

Okay so when I tried to teach them something, like " sit " or (come) here " is often gets very chaotic. I always start with the boxer as she is willing to act with me but the dogs are uninterested as hel_l besided the miniature who is excited but fails to learn. Maybe iam unpatient.

Now almost every dog almost every time comes to me when I say " here " and show them my hand like I have some cookie, when they touch my hand with theri nose i praise them. Works well and she, the boxer does sit, not always though.

Now what really turns me off are my gf and her daughter plus nephews.

I told them how to appreciate the dogs and how to punish them. I.e. the shit in the house yell at them a command with a deep voice but what happens is that theyre like " tstststs " pookie dont do that in a soft voice wich annoys the hel_l out of me.

And the dogs keep doing it and never understand. Then I come and do it my way wich I dont claim is right and often I get annoyed frustrated and overreact, when the dogs pissed or pooed in the room I did give them a beat sometimes when my frustration was really unmeassureable wich I know is wrong but iam really frustarted expecially since when I have to work and I work at home next to my office I hear all this going on but I cant to do anything and I dont want to raise big problems so I let the dogs suffer under that frustration wich bothers me alot. After all iam just a human but I really regret that.

What from my view happened now is that dogs didnt understand what I was trying to tell them i.e. that theyre dogs and not humans, that we love them but that they have to obey to us.

But I feel more like that theyre avoiding me and fear me but do all the things they shouldnt do when out of reach because when iam not there they dont get the same response from the other humans. This shows in things like this : I always push them away not always pleasently when they jump on the sofa, yet when iam there they still sometimes do it.

I told them thats its important to praise the dog when he does his buisiness outside and that they havet o go like 6 times a day at this age but I NEVER really NEVER saw anyone doing this NEVER EVER.

I told them that the dog has to go out up to six times maybe every 2 hours, before sleep after eating and that you can see when the dogs wants to shit or pee that hes walking around smelling the floor or getting exited played etc

yet I never saw them once taking the dog when any of those happened to take them outside. I cant do it on my own with 4 dogs, I have to work and this happens next to my office. My frustration level is really high and sadly the dogs will be feeling that rather then those who cause the situation by stupidity arrogance and ignorance and not last but leats I feel a big lack of respect.

Iam really serious about and I know it has to be done yet I feel totally alone and it gets too much for me. I feel frustrated and angry and sad at the same time. Yet when I try to talk with my gf I get no understanding.

What would be my greatest wish is if there would be anyone in BKK who could come here once or twice a week to help with this since its very hard for me to do this all my own, research the net and execute with 4 dogs while taking care what the kids and my gf are doing and trying to teach them etc

The Problem with the second part is that I try to explain to them properly but theyre not taking it serious until I get upset and angry wich I see as my only way to get it into their heads since iam usually a very nice kind and reasonable guy this bothers me alot, I also avoid conflicts.

Iam very serious about this for my own sake and for the sake of the dogs.

Ill continue to go through this thread tommrow and iam sure ill get many answers however I have little confidence to get this done without some personal help especially with 4 dogs and little to no help or worse from my gf.

Toni

Edited October 4, 2008 by TTTon1

[Nienke]

Hi Toni,

1st of all my situation, Iam 21 and live in BKK with my gf. We have 4, yes FOUR and I already regret that dogs. All about 3-4 months of age. A boxer female and 3 males wich inckude a Pittbull Terrier and miniature and a Chihuaha.

Personally iam pretty unhappy with the Situation and have worries. Less so my gf of course wich I should have known. Theres also quite some frustration building up.

So we are living in a 2 storey house with a smallish garden.

This doesn't sound like they have sufficient space to exercise (especially for the boxer and pitbull), and thus can get rid of their energy.

The dogs arent allowed upstairs or to go on the sofa.

I try to be an authority person and a friend to them.

I worked very little with them as I found it very difficult for various reasons.

1. The Boxer is very agile and smart shes willing to learn and like to play.

2. The Terrier is very desinterested. When I want to give him some food he rather goes and takes the food of another dog, when I try to get his attention he often will punish me with putting me on ignore. It improved a little though.

3. The Miniature is okay and a little like the boxer and the chihuaha is "stupid" please dont misunderstand but it appears to me this way. Guess its the breed.

Okay so when I tried to teach them something, like " sit " or (come) here " is often gets very chaotic. I always start with the boxer as she is willing to act with me but the dogs are uninterested as hel_l besided the miniature who is excited but fails to learn. Maybe iam unpatient.

You took 4 pups at the same time. None of them have learned obedient behavior and, therefore, none can be the good example. As they are together alone lots of time they have formed their own pack within your human-dog pack and, therefore, will 'listen' to each other more then to the humans, hence them ignoring you when you say something (unless you have something, such as a treat, that's more interesting at that moment than their playmates). As you do not have the time enough, and the cooperation of the others, to spend the proper time for their education, it certainly will not work in your favor.

Different breeds learn in different ways and speed. A lot depends on what they were bred for. And also within the breed you can notice differences. Submissive dogs are more willing to follow command, while more independent (dominant) dogs tend to go more their own way.

For a training school the best customers are the submissive dogs, because once they go home the chances they also will listen to the owner (see them as higher rank) are much higher than those dogs that may see their trainer as higher rank and therefore obey. But if once home the owner is not establishing his/her higher position, the dog may feel dominant over the owner resulting in a disobeying dog that knows all the basic obedience commands.

Where are the other pups when you train one of them? Or do you concentrate on one while the others are there as well?

It is best to train one at the time with the others locked up somewhere else till you have 100% reliable responses to the commands. Only then you can start training with two at the time, then 3 then 4.

Also keep the training sessions short with fun, not more than 5 minutes at the time, but several times a day.

Now almost every dog almost every time comes to me when I say " here " and show them my hand like I have some cookie, when they touch my hand with theri nose i praise them. Works well and she, the boxer does sit, not always though.

It takes time (=patience ), training and consistency to get reliable responses. To me it sounds you're on the right track.

Now what really turns me off are my gf and her daughter plus nephews.

I told them how to appreciate the dogs and how to punish them. I.e. the shit in the house yell at them a command with a deep voice but what happens is that theyre like " tstststs " pookie dont do that in a soft voice wich annoys the hel_l out of me.

And the dogs keep doing it and never understand. Then I come and do it my way wich I dont claim is right and often I get annoyed frustrated and overreact, when the dogs pissed or pooed in the room I did give them a beat sometimes when my frustration was really unmeassureable wich I know is wrong but iam really frustarted expecially since when I have to work and I work at home next to my office I hear all this going on but I cant to do anything and I dont want to raise big problems so I let the dogs suffer under that frustration wich bothers me alot. After all iam just a human but I really regret that.

I can imagine it is quite frustrating for you if the other household members are not consistent in their part of raising the dogs (or don’t partake at all).

However, over-reacting towards your dogs will only result in them fearing YOU. You already notice this happening: <quote> But I feel more like that theyre avoiding me and fear me<unquote>.

Better is to be very consistent in what you allow and do not allow in a friendly manner. Every time you are with your dogs they meet the same attitude and rules.

What from my view happened now is that dogs didnt understand what I was trying to tell them i.e. that theyre dogs and not humans, that we love them but that they have to obey to us.

But I feel more like that theyre avoiding me and fear me but do all the things they shouldnt do when out of reach because when iam not there they dont get the same response from the other humans. This shows in things like this : I always push them away not always pleasently when they jump on the sofa, yet when iam there they still sometimes do it.

Dogs react to 'safe or dangerous' and 'result or no result'. In case of the sofa it has become 'safe' to jump on top of it while you not there and 'oops, I forgot for a moment it's dangerous' when you are around.

As for the toilet training, punishment after the act does not make them associate that it is their pooping and peeing in the house that is not allowed. What they can learn is that if there's poop or pee in the house (no matter from who the poop or pee is, it can even be yours) is dangerous as soon as you come in the picture. Many people think their dog shows guilt when they come home and the dog has done something in the house. First of all, dogs do not and cannot show guilt, that's a human trait only. Dogs show submissive behavior in an attempt to stop the (possible) aggression of the other one. In normal social dogs this normally does the trick. Therefore, when a dog shows this submissive behavior and the owner still punishes the dog (shows aggression) the dog really gets confused, looses trust in the owner and when the aggression continues (over-reaction on the part of the owner) the dog can show fear-aggression as that's the only option left for the dog to stop the aggression and put itself in a safe place.

I told them thats its important to praise the dog when he does his buisiness outside and that they havet o go like 6 times a day at this age but I NEVER really NEVER saw anyone doing this NEVER EVER.

I told them that the dog has to go out up to six times maybe every 2 hours, before sleep after eating and that you can see when the dogs wants to shit or pee that hes walking around smelling the floor or getting exited played etc

yet I never saw them once taking the dog when any of those happened to take them outside. I cant do it on my own with 4 dogs, I have to work and this happens next to my office. My frustration level is really high and sadly the dogs will be feeling that rather then those who cause the situation by stupidity arrogance and ignorance and not last but leats I feel a big lack of respect.

I understand how frustrating this all must be for you.

You are very correct with the praising while they do their business outside. That's the best way to toilet train a dog. When doing inside while you see it a soft Uh-Uh with a displeased face and immediately picking up the dog to put it outside is the way to go, then praise when the dog is doing its business outside. Unfortunately, you do not get the cooperation from the other people in the house.

Is it an option to leave the dogs outside the whole time you are working and, thus, can't supervise them? Maybe with a door open to only one room where you put their beds, drinking bowl and feed them?

Iam really serious about and I know it has to be done yet I feel totally alone and it gets too much for me. I feel frustrated and angry and sad at the same time. Yet when I try to talk with my gf I get no understanding.

What would be my greatest wish is if there would be anyone in BKK who could come here once or twice a week to help with this since its very hard for me to do this all my own, research the net and execute with 4 dogs while taking care what the kids and my gf are doing and trying to teach them etc

Calling in a dog trainer may do the trick. Then your gf can hear and learn from another one. You could inform at Thong Lor Animal hospital. There works a trainer named Fred Alimusa: http://www.thonglorpet.com/ABC4DOGS/activities.html

Best is to go there with the dogs, your gf and the nephews (one dog for one person).

Not sure if he is still going to people's houses, though.

The Problem with the second part is that I try to explain to them properly but theyre not taking it serious until I get upset and angry wich I see as my only way to get it into their heads since iam usually a very nice kind and reasonable guy this bothers me alot, I also avoid conflicts.

Iam very serious about this for my own sake and for the sake of the dogs.

Ill continue to go through this thread tommrow and iam sure ill get many answers however I have little confidence to get this done without some personal help especially with 4 dogs and little to no help or worse from my gf.

I can see that you do have all the good intentions. However, you have to work during the day, your gf and nephews are not helping in the education of your dogs, there is not just one but FOUR (!!!) puppies (educating them is almost a daily task), so sure enough frustration level increases. It's not an easy situation you are in.

Therefore, I do believe concerning the situation you are in, that you may want to seriously consider if it wouldn't be better (for the dogs AND for yourself) to rehome at least two of the pups in case you can not spend the necessary time for their education. Also take into consideration if you can provide the necessary exercise for especially the pit and the boxer. Just imagine how it will be once they reach full size and will play in your house.

I wish you good luck.

Nienke

Edited October 5, 2008 by Nienke

[TTTon1]

Hi Toni,

1st of all my situation, Iam 21 and live in BKK with my gf. We have 4, yes FOUR and I already regret that dogs. All about 3-4 months of age. A boxer female and 3 males wich inckude a Pittbull Terrier and miniature and a Chihuaha.

Personally iam pretty unhappy with the Situation and have worries. Less so my gf of course wich I should have known. Theres also quite some frustration building up.

So we are living in a 2 storey house with a smallish garden.

This doesn't sound like they have sufficient space to exercise (especially for the boxer and pitbull), and thus can get rid of their energy.

The dogs arent allowed upstairs or to go on the sofa.

I try to be an authority person and a friend to them.

I worked very little with them as I found it very difficult for various reasons.

1. The Boxer is very agile and smart shes willing to learn and like to play.

2. The Terrier is very desinterested. When I want to give him some food he rather goes and takes the food of another dog, when I try to get his attention he often will punish me with putting me on ignore. It improved a little though.

3. The Miniature is okay and a little like the boxer and the chihuaha is "stupid" please dont misunderstand but it appears to me this way. Guess its the breed.

Okay so when I tried to teach them something, like " sit " or (come) here " is often gets very chaotic. I always start with the boxer as she is willing to act with me but the dogs are uninterested as hel_l besided the miniature who is excited but fails to learn. Maybe iam unpatient.

You took 4 pups at the same time. None of them have learned obedient behavior and, therefore, none can be the good example. As they are together alone lots of time they have formed their own pack within your human-dog pack and, therefore, will 'listen' to each other more then to the humans, hence them ignoring you when you say something (unless you have something, such as a treat, that's more interesting at that moment than their playmates). As you do not have the time enough, and the cooperation of the others, to spend the proper time for their education, it certainly will not work in your favor.

Different breeds learn in different ways and speed. A lot depends on what they were bred for. And also within the breed you can notice differences. Submissive dogs are more willing to follow command, while more independent (dominant) dogs tend to go more their own way.

For a training school the best customers are the submissive dogs, because once they go home the chances they also will listen to the owner (see them as higher rank) are much higher than those dogs that may see their trainer as higher rank and therefore obey. But if once home the owner is not establishing his/her higher position, the dog may feel dominant over the owner resulting in a disobeying dog that knows all the basic obedience commands.

Where are the other pups when you train one of them? Or do you concentrate on one while the others are there as well?

It is best to train one at the time with the others locked up somewhere else till you have 100% reliable responses to the commands. Only then you can start training with two at the time, then 3 then 4.

Also keep the training sessions short with fun, not more than 5 minutes at the time, but several times a day.

Now almost every dog almost every time comes to me when I say " here " and show them my hand like I have some cookie, when they touch my hand with theri nose i praise them. Works well and she, the boxer does sit, not always though.

It takes time (=patience ), training and consistency to get reliable responses. To me it sounds you're on the right track.

Now what really turns me off are my gf and her daughter plus nephews.

I told them how to appreciate the dogs and how to punish them. I.e. the shit in the house yell at them a command with a deep voice but what happens is that theyre like " tstststs " pookie dont do that in a soft voice wich annoys the hel_l out of me.

And the dogs keep doing it and never understand. Then I come and do it my way wich I dont claim is right and often I get annoyed frustrated and overreact, when the dogs pissed or pooed in the room I did give them a beat sometimes when my frustration was really unmeassureable wich I know is wrong but iam really frustarted expecially since when I have to work and I work at home next to my office I hear all this going on but I cant to do anything and I dont want to raise big problems so I let the dogs suffer under that frustration wich bothers me alot. After all iam just a human but I really regret that.

I can imagine it is quite frustrating for you if the other household members are not consistent in their part of raising the dogs (or don't partake at all).

However, over-reacting towards your dogs will only result in them fearing YOU. You already notice this happening: <quote> But I feel more like that theyre avoiding me and fear me<unquote>.

Better is to be very consistent in what you allow and do not allow in a friendly manner. Every time you are with your dogs they meet the same attitude and rules.

What from my view happened now is that dogs didnt understand what I was trying to tell them i.e. that theyre dogs and not humans, that we love them but that they have to obey to us.

But I feel more like that theyre avoiding me and fear me but do all the things they shouldnt do when out of reach because when iam not there they dont get the same response from the other humans. This shows in things like this : I always push them away not always pleasently when they jump on the sofa, yet when iam there they still sometimes do it.

Dogs react to 'safe or dangerous' and 'result or no result'. In case of the sofa it has become 'safe' to jump on top of it while you not there and 'oops, I forgot for a moment it's dangerous' when you are around.

As for the toilet training, punishment after the act does not make them associate that it is their pooping and peeing in the house that is not allowed. What they can learn is that if there's poop or pee in the house (no matter from who the poop or pee is, it can even be yours) is dangerous as soon as you come in the picture. Many people think their dog shows guilt when they come home and the dog has done something in the house. First of all, dogs do not and cannot show guilt, that's a human trait only. Dogs show submissive behavior in an attempt to stop the (possible) aggression of the other one. In normal social dogs this normally does the trick. Therefore, when a dog shows this submissive behavior and the owner still punishes the dog (shows aggression) the dog really gets confused, looses trust in the owner and when the aggression continues (over-reaction on the part of the owner) the dog can show fear-aggression as that's the only option left for the dog to stop the aggression and put itself in a safe place.

I told them thats its important to praise the dog when he does his buisiness outside and that they havet o go like 6 times a day at this age but I NEVER really NEVER saw anyone doing this NEVER EVER.

I told them that the dog has to go out up to six times maybe every 2 hours, before sleep after eating and that you can see when the dogs wants to shit or pee that hes walking around smelling the floor or getting exited played etc

yet I never saw them once taking the dog when any of those happened to take them outside. I cant do it on my own with 4 dogs, I have to work and this happens next to my office. My frustration level is really high and sadly the dogs will be feeling that rather then those who cause the situation by stupidity arrogance and ignorance and not last but leats I feel a big lack of respect.

I understand how frustrating this all must be for you.

You are very correct with the praising while they do their business outside. That's the best way to toilet train a dog. When doing inside while you see it a soft Uh-Uh with a displeased face and immediately picking up the dog to put it outside is the way to go, then praise when the dog is doing its business outside. Unfortunately, you do not get the cooperation from the other people in the house.

Is it an option to leave the dogs outside the whole time you are working and, thus, can't supervise them? Maybe with a door open to only one room where you put their beds, drinking bowl and feed them?

Iam really serious about and I know it has to be done yet I feel totally alone and it gets too much for me. I feel frustrated and angry and sad at the same time. Yet when I try to talk with my gf I get no understanding.

What would be my greatest wish is if there would be anyone in BKK who could come here once or twice a week to help with this since its very hard for me to do this all my own, research the net and execute with 4 dogs while taking care what the kids and my gf are doing and trying to teach them etc

Calling in a dog trainer may do the trick. Then your gf can hear and learn from another one. You could inform at Thong Lor Animal hospital. There works a trainer named Fred Alimusa:

Best is to go there with the dogs, your gf and the nephews (one dog for one person).

Not sure if he is still going to people's houses, though.

The Problem with the second part is that I try to explain to them properly but theyre not taking it serious until I get upset and angry wich I see as my only way to get it into their heads since iam usually a very nice kind and reasonable guy this bothers me alot, I also avoid conflicts.

Iam very serious about this for my own sake and for the sake of the dogs.

Ill continue to go through this thread tommrow and iam sure ill get many answers however I have little confidence to get this done without some personal help especially with 4 dogs and little to no help or worse from my gf.

I can see that you do have all the good intentions. However, you have to work during the day, your gf and nephews are not helping in the education of your dogs, there is not just one but FOUR (!!!) puppies (educating them is almost a daily task), so sure enough frustration level increases. It's not an easy situation you are in.

Therefore, I do believe concerning the situation you are in, that you may want to seriously consider if it wouldn't be better (for the dogs AND for yourself) to rehome at least two of the pups in case you can not spend the necessary time for their education. Also take into consideration if you can provide the necessary exercise for especially the pit and the boxer. Just imagine how it will be once they reach full size and will play in your house.

I wish you good luck.

Nienke

Hey Thanks for your kind post, ill reply in detail later.

On a sad note the chihuhaua died tonight, he always gets out under the fence on to the street and runs to the neighbours. In the morning our neighbours braught him to us when hes was not moving and already very cold. About an hour later us finding a hospital he stopped breathing. R.I.P.

I already thought about to relocate/ give away some dogs but I dont know to who. Id never give them to thai people. Especially not the 2 big ones and the small one is too important to my gf especially when 1 is now gone already. I would consider giving the Boxer or the Pitbull to a goood owner who I know and can trust with this dogs. If not ill keep doing it myself. The space is not too much in house but I dont see it as a problem as usually when theyre getting too wild ill get between them and theyll stop to play. We can put them outside so they can let themselver go in the garden, id also consider going for a walk with them for about 1 hour per day.

As I said ill get into more details later, not too much time now.

Thx again

[TTTon1]

Hi, im trying to anawer all your points your brought up nienke .

1)

Im not sure how you define sufficent space, we have a smallish garden but iam sure thats alot more then most dog owners can give their dogs. There alot of space to play and its just not a big garden like half a football field, its decent sized but still small. Hope you get the picture. Its definetly enough to exercise and play but I cant throw sticks for 20 yards.

Often I see them play for half an hour or so around the house and in the grass so I think the space isnt a problem, at least yet.

2)

Basiclly that are my thoughts, I try to bring my points across but when Iam talkign about I feel like it doesnt get attention. Very frustrating

3)

Yes that is true.

Yet the Boxer is very active and has definetly is own head but is also submissive. And very willing to learn. Defnitely a good customer.

The Terrier is the absolute opposite yet almost lethargic yet when u stimulate him with very high frequenzy and excited voice or play with him expecially with his mouth hes with you but its possible that he looses interest very quick. What not works with him as food for some reason, maybe I shouldnt let him eat a while before excerising.

btw I like to excersise with food

4)

Yes I youre right I never seperated them.

When I try to train/ play with one dog all get curious and come to me and everything get chaotic. Definetly should sperate them.

5)

I adopted an old dog back in germany and we trained with him, now my mom takes care and I pay for a daily babyistte who takes him out, she tought us some things and we also had a dog show in TV about problem dogs wich opened my eyes.

6)

youre absoluetly right. I think one reason is that I dont want to look stupid in front of the kids so I get very serious. I feel like when I do like you say to the dogs the kids think iam kind of stupid and will not take it serious. Thats something unconciuos and I never think about it at the moment but I will change it. At least I have to feel good about myself.

7)

I never punish them AFTER they did it, I dont say anything and clean it. But when I see it right at the moment it happens I will scream at them with a harsh loud voice and give the command i want them to associate when theyre doing something wrong. Is that okay?

I know the dogs show know guilt and almost always they do soemthing, play in the garden with toys who arent such, destroy plant or eat food from the trash. I never say anything unless I see the action going on then ill do the same as I do when tehyre pooing in the house. Is that okay?

I never punish the dog for something they did because I know they wont associate it, sometimes I have the hunch to but I try to control myself.

Youre right about the submissive behavior thing, makes totally sense and I thank you for bringing this my mind. Very interesting point!

8)

Yes we can leave them outside yet I feel 1st a little sorry for them when theyre alone all night and day and secondly I feel like nobody can control them and theyll get kind of wild. My office had a window door into the garden yet most of the Time when I work I need AC but I def could try.

Now theyre already poing and peeing outside 90%+ I thought the boxer and she learned very quick and the others followed her, so basiclly we dont have this problem anymore.

9)

Thanks ill definetly do it. Do you have information about the prices? I cant figuere it out, its all thai.

Iam sure that it will help alot because even if I know some thing and try to talk them yet neither nor I can fully understand what we have to do and why how to execute.

Yet one thing I think I already have the trust of my gf that Iam right about what I say because they come to me when I want sit and poo outside, I heard her talking to a friend about it. Thats good but still it totally lacks in discipline and execution interest etc.

10)

the last point is definetly something i thought about and what concerns me. Yet it hasnt reached the other people. I try to give them more time and be more patient with dogs and humans. Yet theyre just a few months and Ive seen old dogs changing their behavior so I think I shouldnt force and try to improve the situation slowly and carefully.

[Nienke]

There alot of space to play and its just not a big garden like half a football field,

About half a football filed, that's quite a nice size. Next to this, it will be good to take them out to other places if you have that opportunity. It will be good for the necessary socialization and mental exercise. Being only in one place will be boring after a while. Just imagine yourself in the same (big) house 24/7. You get bored, plus that WHEN you go out you will feel a bit weird, almost scared, outside.

the Boxer is very active and has definetly is own head but is also submissive. And very willing to learn. Defnitely a good customer.

The Terrier is the absolute opposite yet almost lethargic yet when u stimulate him with very high frequenzy and excited voice or play with him expecially with his mouth hes with you but its possible that he looses interest very quick. What not works with him as food for some reason, maybe I shouldnt let him eat a while before excerising. btw I like to excersise with food

For rewards you need to look at what the dog likes most, not what you think the dog likes most. Some go for food treats, others for play. I got a customer once from Pattaya who came over to train his 4 months old pitbull. The first day she was interested in food, but then no more. It turned out she loves to chase moving toys, and that became her reward. From then on the training went very well. Be carefull though that you use the food as reward and not as lure, or the dog will become food minded.

Yes I youre right I never seperated them. When I try to train/ play with one dog all get curious and come to me and everything get chaotic. Definetly should sperate them. There you go.

I adopted an old dog back in germany and we trained with him, now my mom takes care and I pay for a daily babyistte who takes him out, she tought us some things and we also had a dog show in TV about problem dogs wich opened my eyes.

If it's the dog wisperer I do hope you don't follow suit in using choke or pinch collars.

youre absoluetly right. I think one reason is that I dont want to look stupid in front of the kids so I get very serious. I feel like when I do like you say to the dogs the kids think iam kind of stupid and will not take it serious. Thats something unconciuos and I never think about it at the moment but I will change it. At least I have to feel good about myself.

From your post I get the impression you know what you are doing and I think you are very much on the right track. So, no need to feel insecure.

I never punish them AFTER they did it, I dont say anything and clean it. But when I see it right at the moment it happens I will scream at them with a harsh loud voice and give the command i want them to associate when theyre doing something wrong. Is that okay?

Screaming is not necessary, just an 'uh-uh' in a harsh voice with an angry face is enough. Don't forget to call the name of the dog first.

I know the dogs show know guilt and almost always they do something, play in the garden with toys who arent such, destroy plant or eat food from the trash. I never say anything unless I see the action going on then ill do the same as I do when tehyre pooing in the house. Is that okay? Yup.

I never punish the dog for something they did because I know they wont associate it, sometimes I have the hunch to but I try to control myself.

People are people, and I can imagine that when someone sees another beautiful plant torn to pieces or when just woken up one steps in dog poop or pee, it's difficult NOT to remain patience.

It's very good that you are aware of this, and try to control yourself during those frustrating moments.

Yes we can leave them outside yet I feel 1st a little sorry for them when theyre alone all night and day and secondly I feel like nobody can control them and theyll get kind of wild. My office had a window door into the garden yet most of the Time when I work I need AC but I def could try.

You could build in a training schedule, say three times a day not more than 5 minutes training per dog (good to have a break from your work as well). I would be strict with this schedule in the beginning, but later on you can become more flexible, that is unpredictable about the time. Once they start responding well inside the house and the garden, you can build in training sessions outside to train them when you have time.

Now theyre already poing and peeing outside 90%+ I thought the boxer and she learned very quick and the others followed her, so basiclly we dont have this problem anymore.

Well, there you go! You have 3 - 4 months old pups. You can't expect not having an accident in the house anymore. Just keep on doing what you are doing, and they will become perfectly toilet trained.

Thanks ill definetly do it. Do you have information about the prices? I cant figuere it out, its all thai.

Iam sure that it will help alot because even if I know some thing and try to talk them yet neither nor I can fully understand what we have to do and why how to execute.

Not sure about prices. Best it to just give them a call. Khun Fred can speak perfectly English. And I assume at the hospital they also speak English.

Yet one thing I think I already have the trust of my gf that Iam right about what I say because they come to me when I want sit and poo outside, I heard her talking to a friend about it. Thats good but still it totally lacks in discipline and execution interest etc.

the last point is definetly something i thought about and what concerns me. Yet it hasnt reached the other people. I try to give them more time and be more patient with dogs and humans. Yet theyre just a few months and Ive seen old dogs changing their behavior so I think I shouldnt force and try to improve the situation slowly and carefully.

I suspect your gf has never trained a dog in her life, maybe hasn't had even dogs. You, on the other, have already experience in training a dog. So, probably she hasn't a clue of what to do. That doesn't mean she is not willing to learn. Her not 'listening' to you may have something to do with her fear of loosing face. AND, isn't it that more too often the hubby or the wife is the absolute LAST one that the partner will 'listen' to. Same with teaching the language or giving driving lessons. It's better to call in a third party.

AND what you can do is just go on with your own training lessons, one dog and not more than 5 minutes at the time. Just by doing it she will see the fun you and the dog have during the training sessions and she will see the results. Only when you see her watching you, or maybe she tries it herself once, you can gently explain what and how you are doing it. If she walks away, just let her be. Maybe next time she will be open to it, just not that time.

Nienke

Edited October 6, 2008 by Nienke

[macb]

Thanks Nienke:

I just read the thread but was pleased to see you have responded: I was going to tackle it tomorrow

1. I haven't got the internet in my home till next month.

2. I seem to be up to my ears as well pursuing the Amateur Author experience.

Thanks again

[TTTon1]

Hi, I didnt mean it to be half a football field, I said it was NOT . Its a normal sized backyard in front of the house. Enough space for them to play.

With the rest you wrote I all agree with and thank you for your time and work you put into it. I really appreciate that!

[TTTon1]

Hi, I didnt mean it to be half a football field, I said it was NOT . Its a normal sized backyard in front of the house. Enough space for them to play.

With the rest you wrote I all agree with and thank you for your time and work you put into it. I really appreciate that!

Hi, I just wanted to thank you for your great help and the time and work you put into your posts, it really helped me a lot.

Luckily i found a dogschool just 15 minutes from my home by accident theyve a school, a pool, a lake and an off leash zone. Really makes life better now

cheers

Toni

[weka]

Macb, Nienke and others, firstly thanks so much for your inputs to this topic. It certainly helps us dog owners and speaks volumes for you as dog lovers.

I'd like some tips or advice on training 2 dogs. We have 2 Jack Russells (brother and sister) who are nearly 10 weeks old and are doing splendidly. Luckily we live in rural Nonthaburi with a school and football field right next door and a river and jungle environs all around. Exercising areas are not going to be a problem.

The pups are doing great and I reckon they have an ideal set up. My major concern is the same as all in Thailand - with the abundance of other dogs around, it is imperative that they come to me immediately on command.

We've got them sitting on command and coming (especially to GF who is with them allday and is very firm with them) pretty consistently. However, being so young, this seems like a security response more than an obediance one (if that is the correct description). They've naturally gravitated to her as the "leader" but I'm happy with the status I seem to have - appears to be second on the pecking order, ie. respond to me when we're together but defers to the GF's voice and cries when she leaves but then gets on with attending to me if you like. I'm looking forward to walks, runs, fetching games and general blokey rough and tumble with them when they're older.

What training tricks for 2 pups? Obviously they battle each other for our attention and the bitch seems a little more developed than the dog runs faster, is more adventurous and agile and seems to have the last word on minibrawls - also seems more jealous actually. They spend a lot of time play fighting and seemingly testing each other which I'm sure is totally natural and unavoidable - although a sharp "enough" from either of us stops them if they're starting to get too carried away.

Should I try separating the dogs for training sessions?

Will they learn off each other?

Are there some definate no-nos with 2 dogs?

Can we expect any future problems ? eg with one asserting dominance when they get older.

All the training information seems to pertain to single dogs

Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated

[Nienke]

Hi Weka,

You've quite young dogs. The nature of such young puppies is to stay fairly close to their mom (that's you and your gf), by the time they become approxiamately 4 months old they will start exploring more and more, meaning they dare to go further and further away from you and even not respond to your recall. This will be even stronger as they are together.

I suggest you follow an obedience training course with your pups, starting with a puppy class where they have the opportunity to socialize with other pups.

In BKK at Thong Lor Animal Hospital they provide these kind of classes, where the owner can be fully involved in the training.

In answer to your questions:

1. it is better to start up training with one pup, while the other is tied up and can watch, or your girlfriend trains the other pup at the same time. Important to start with attention training.

2. Absolutely, especially the behavior you don't want them to learn. (digging, running off, chasing, etc. )

3. Same as with one dog. No-no's are subjective as, for example, some people don't mind when the dog jump up at them others don't like it. For me definite no-no's are chasing (chicken, cats, morebikes, etc) or teeth on human flesh, that is mouthing.

4. I do not suspect this to happen as they are of opposite sexe.

Everything that applies to one dog should also aplly to the other dog. Training two pups at the same time just means more time investment on your part.

Nienke

Edited November 22, 2008 by Nienke

[Nylarac]

There's a lot of obedience stuff in this string but I just want to know if it is possible to stop my little soi puppy now 5 months old from digging up my garden and if so how. Both my dogs stay out side and she does it at night. So I can't catch her. I used to lose my temper with her...Now I just swear and stomp back into the house. She digs in the pots as well as the beds.