And so the exodus of quality expats begins. This time it's personal

[The manic]

26 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Manic, I think we are not so far apart in attitude. Of course my country has many skeletons in the closet. I'm old enough to have lived through several shameful episodes. I was very nearly cannon fodder in Vietnam when they ended college draft deferments. Clearly Bush conned the entire country with the Iraq WMD scam, and countless others incidents.

 

Of course America has multiple reasons for embarrassment and shame in our history. Any large collection of people inevitably choose the wrong path at times. Generally our form of government allows for correction of such mistakes.

Unfortunately in the case of the current president I agree that things will get worse before they get better. My hope is that Americans will soon realize what their sloth and ignorance of their political duty has cost the nation. Perhaps this will lead to reinvigoration of our jaded electorate..... Maybe not, in which case we will continue this decline in statehood until we are indeed a third-rate nation not to be trusted with any position of leadership.

In my opinion too much of the world swallows way too much of the baloney we crank out here from fashion to self- indulgent hero worship, and yes, even to our dismal debt-based economy and economic policy.

 

I traveled frequently to Europe when I was working and naturally was aware that many people despised America while they also envied much of our society and lifestyle. Talk about cognitive dissonance. I also agree that world opinion had turned against the USA more in the last few years. Where we disagree is the actual numbers of such opinions.

 

Despite our best efforts to bully other countries and shame ourselves with school shootings and moronic choices for leadership, billions of people across the globe would abandon their home countries to move to America. Sorry, I have no statistic to back this up, but I suspect there are such sources.

 

Finally, I'm happy to meet another Steinbeck reader. I've read everything I can find that he wrote; some of it more than once. I just finished Cannery Row for the third time. The Grapes of Wrath is also a favorite that bears frequent re-reads. Travels With Charlie probably reveals the most of Steinbeck's fascination with the complexity and duality of our culture. He is hardly a fan boy, but also captures the passion and desire to do the right thing that MOST  Americans exhibit.

 

Upton Sinclair represents the yellow journalism genre that was popular in that time, and still is today. What is this but an attempt by Americans to face and correct what we see is wrong with our society? Trying to be better and failing is better than not trying I think.

 

As my original post should have made clear I am highly critical of the state of my country and society. I speak to my fellow countrymen continually about our problems and urge them to participate in curing them.

 

America is hardly god's gift to humanity, but as you say, hardly the worst player on the world stage as well.

Like it or not America is a major player now and we owe the world the very best we have to give.

 

I will continue to support that effort, to apologize for our transgressions, and to seek perfection of our form of government.

 

I think Churchill once said that democracy is not a good form of government, it's just the best available despite the sickness at our heart. We have lost our way but may yet recover.

I thank you for this dialog since it has helped me to better define my own mixed feelings about being American.

Amen and peace brother. Take care. BTW Jamese Elroy is excellent for an insight into USA politics. 

[bendejo]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

I traveled frequently to Europe when I was working and naturally was aware that many people despised America while they also envied much of our society and lifestyle. 

 

Many moons ago, on a long train ride in India, a lad lectured me on the evils of the US, etc.  I also suspect he was showing off his English to impress his friends.  After a while, he asked me to sponsor him for a visa.

 

[stevenl]

6 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Manic, I think we are not so far apart in attitude. Of course my country has many skeletons in the closet. I'm old enough to have lived through several shameful episodes. I was very nearly cannon fodder in Vietnam when they ended college draft deferments. Clearly Bush conned the entire country with the Iraq WMD scam, and countless others incidents.

 

Of course America has multiple reasons for embarrassment and shame in our history. Any large collection of people inevitably choose the wrong path at times. Generally our form of government allows for correction of such mistakes.

Unfortunately in the case of the current president I agree that things will get worse before they get better. My hope is that Americans will soon realize what their sloth and ignorance of their political duty has cost the nation. Perhaps this will lead to reinvigoration of our jaded electorate..... Maybe not, in which case we will continue this decline in statehood until we are indeed a third-rate nation not to be trusted with any position of leadership.

In my opinion too much of the world swallows way too much of the baloney we crank out here from fashion to self- indulgent hero worship, and yes, even to our dismal debt-based economy and economic policy.

 

I traveled frequently to Europe when I was working and naturally was aware that many people despised America while they also envied much of our society and lifestyle. Talk about cognitive dissonance. I also agree that world opinion had turned against the USA more in the last few years. Where we disagree is the actual numbers of such opinions.

 

Despite our best efforts to bully other countries and shame ourselves with school shootings and moronic choices for leadership, billions of people across the globe would abandon their home countries to move to America. Sorry, I have no statistic to back this up, but I suspect there are such sources.

 

Finally, I'm happy to meet another Steinbeck reader. I've read everything I can find that he wrote; some of it more than once. I just finished Cannery Row for the third time. The Grapes of Wrath is also a favorite that bears frequent re-reads. Travels With Charlie probably reveals the most of Steinbeck's fascination with the complexity and duality of our culture. He is hardly a fan boy, but also captures the passion and desire to do the right thing that MOST  Americans exhibit.

 

Upton Sinclair represents the yellow journalism genre that was popular in that time, and still is today. What is this but an attempt by Americans to face and correct what we see is wrong with our society? Trying to be better and failing is better than not trying I think.

 

As my original post should have made clear I am highly critical of the state of my country and society. I speak to my fellow countrymen continually about our problems and urge them to participate in curing them.

 

America is hardly god's gift to humanity, but as you say, hardly the worst player on the world stage as well.

Like it or not America is a major player now and we owe the world the very best we have to give.

 

I will continue to support that effort, to apologize for our transgressions, and to seek perfection of our form of government.

 

I think Churchill once said that democracy is not a good form of government, it's just the best available despite the sickness at our heart. We have lost our way but may yet recover.

I thank you for this dialog since it has helped me to better define my own mixed feelings about being American.

" I traveled frequently to Europe when I was working and naturally was aware that many people despised America while they also envied much of our society and lifestyle. "

 

I think despised is a really bad choice of words here. Of course there will be people despising the USA, there will always be despising people anything. But in general from Europe critique of the USA will be on mainly 2 things: it's desire to control the world, even though often Europe is asking the USA for that, with quite often a bad outcome, and the lack of care for the poor in the USA: all is available for the well to do, but there is just a very limited social security, poor education, etc. for the not so well off. Couple that with many Europeans traveling abroad, many Americans staying in country, all resulting in a very different view of the world.

Edited August 19, 2018 by stevenl