victim of atm fraud

[isaander]

am another victim of ATM theft.  I have looked for open threads but all closed so I want to post FYI and get feedback and advice.   I live in backwoods isaan with my thai wife who is an accountant for the government in a rural district office.  Her salary is deposited monthly to her account in Taugausau government bank account.  She is required to use this bank.  She has me manage our money and I alone have her bank card.  last month I went to withdraw and found 15,000 missing 2 days after salary was deposited  28th july/18.  I use only ATM's attached to the bank and am cautious about covering the keyboard and that nobody is watching.  She inquired at the bank and her office and found out that several people had lost money.  I emptied the account and this month just before payday august 28/18 I changed the PIN.  being worried I went to the bank at 11am and then at 3pm but salary had not been deposited.  I went back at 6pm and salary was deposited but another theft of 6020 had occurred.  In this case the change of PIN did not help.  The 20B suggests the withdrawal was in another city or at least another bank's atm.  The close timing of the theft makes me think there was inside collusion. My wife is trying to get help from the bank but it seems that this is not a priority for them.  I welcome thoughts and suggestions. 

[colinneil]

Her salary deposited in Taugausau bank?

Never heard of that, i thought government employees were paid via Krung Thai bank.

Things dont add up, so maybe your wife is not being truthful with you, you say only you have her bank card, sorry dont ring true.

Many ladies here are not honest with their farang husbands regarding money, my ex -wife never ever told me the truth about money.

I am not doubting what you say, but i think you should be looking closer to home, for the answer.

[Jip99]

4 minutes ago, colinneil said:

Her salary deposited in Taugausau bank?

Never heard of that, i thought government employees were paid via Krung Thai bank.

Things dont add up, so maybe your wife is not being truthful with you, you say only you have her bank card, sorry dont ring true.

Many ladies here are not honest with their farang husbands regarding money, my ex -wife never ever told me the truth about money.

I am not doubting what you say, but i think you should be looking closer to home, for the answer.

 

 

I won't comment on your ex-wife other than to say that, as I recall, if there was any money anywhere she could sniff it out in a nano second.

 

I will refrain from commenting on the OP until more details are available. .... but I agree that the story does not ring true.

 

 

My missus would certainly not let me control her/her bank account in that manner.

[samsensam]

 

long story short; gf at the time was a university lecturer, i noticed her PIN was 9999, told her to change it as it was too easy for someone to see and remember when using an ATM, she didn't. money missing from account... i asked her did anyone go to the ATM with her recently? yes, a colleague. i said look there first. she didnt believe me. police involved, turned out the colleague admitted she had noticed her PIN, took her bank card from her bag at lunch, emptied the account (i dont remember how much but quite a bit).

 

conclusion; university took no action, police took no action, gf didnt get all the money back either due to taking pity on the colleagues sob story - the same person who had stolen from her.

[isaander]

I just looked on the bank card - it has in English "bank for agriculture".    definitely not KTB.   am aware our financial arrangement is strange for isaan but it works for us.  she works hard and I am retired.   what you commented is very common here but in this case I know it wasn't her and her bank card was always in my possession.

[colinneil]

On 8/31/2018 at 4:40 PM, isaander said:

I just looked on the bank card - it has in English "bank for agriculture".    definitely not KTB.   am aware our financial arrangement is strange for isaan but it works for us.  she works hard and I am retired.   what you commented is very common here but in this case I know it wasn't her and her bank card was always in my possession.

I have just spoken with my wife (government employee) yes she confirms Thai agricultural bank.

Are you 100% sure that there is only 1 ATM card?

That was a trick my ex pulled once, told me card was lost and she got another 1 from the bank, now the story she told the bank was clearly a different 1 than she told me.

Sorry but it is very strange for a Thai lady to allow only her husband to control her money.

Check jip99 s post as he says his wife would never allow him to do that, my wife the same.

Sorry my friend it appears i am having a go at you, i am not just trying to help you understand about the problem.

You have to understand,manytimes a lady will tell you something which you want/are happy to hear, but it is not the truth.

Have you personally spoken to the bank?  Probably not.

[isaander]

I appreciate your comments and in no way offended.  and thanks for asking your wife.  since I know where my wife was in the 2 hour window that the second theft had occurred I start to wonder if a card was cloned in the first theft and used for the second.  but then how would they guess my new 6 digit pin.  I didn't even tell my wife.  I don't think 2 pins can exist for 1 account?  you are correct I did not talk to the bank as they don't speak any English and its my wife's account but our next step would seem to be the police.   

[Crossy]

Don't just change the PIN, cancel the card and get a new one.

 

My knowledge of the ATM system is old, but IIRC the PIN is (indirectly) stored on the card and not verified at the back office, so changing your PIN doesn't affect the cloned card.

 

For those who are wondering, the PIN is stored as a non-reversible hash (you cannot extract the PIN from the hash), the same hash is applied to the PIN entered on the keypad, if the result is the same then the PINs match.

 

[isaander]

thanks that is very useful info. My ignorance about that probably allowed the 2nd theft.   I will have her open a new account.

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, isaander said:

I will have her open a new account.

Just cancel the card and get new cards.

 

[isaander]

just cancelling the card wont protect the account if another card - or other unknown method of access exists correct?

[Kinnock]

1 hour ago, isaander said:

just cancelling the card wont protect the account if another card - or other unknown method of access exists correct?

If it's a cloned card (copy of your original), then cancelling the card and using new PIN for the new card should prevent access by the cloned card.

 

New card and new PIN should be secure - if that was the original issue. 

[KhunBENQ]

1 hour ago, isaander said:

just cancelling the card wont protect the account if another card - or other unknown method of access exists correct?

The only "unknown method" is the owner of the account taking the bank book and his/her ID to the bank and withdraw over the counter.

A completely normal procedure.

I found it alarming that members reported that they got money over the counter without showing ID!!!

Where is the bankbook?

----------------------------------

To avoid confusion for the unknowing:

" Taugausau" is "BAAC" in English.

"Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives".

https://www.baac.or.th/baac_en/

tau-gau-sau being the spelling of the Thai acronym.

Little known to most foreigners.

I don't know too much but at least they seem to pay out subsidies for farmers, special loans for farming materials/machines etc. Huge crowds at certain times, tents on the road for the waiting.

 

[VBF]

3 hours ago, Crossy said:

Don't just change the PIN, cancel the card and get a new one.

 

My knowledge of the ATM system is old, but IIRC the PIN is (indirectly) stored on the card and not verified at the back office, so changing your PIN doesn't affect the cloned card.

 

For those who are wondering, the PIN is stored as a non-reversible hash (you cannot extract the PIN from the hash), the same hash is applied to the PIN entered on the keypad, if the result is the same then the PINs match.

 

@Crossy  Your knowledge might be old, but you  must be correct about the PIN  being (indirectly) stored on the card because one of my (UK) banks has issued me with a portable card reader for logging into their internet banking, From their website it says:

 

Your card reader provides an extra level of security when banking online. It uses your current account Visa debit card and your PIN to generate a unique eight-digit passcode which authorises log in and certain transactions. 

 

As the card reader is not connected to anything, it follows that the PIN is indeed stored on the card in some form - ie the non-reversible hash to which you refer.

[dotpoom]

16 hours ago, Jip99 said:

Many ladies here are not honest with their farang husbands regarding money,

Won't comment on that....but in this case she is unlightly to be stealing from herself ..this is not her husband's A/C.

[dotpoom]

16 hours ago, isaander said:

am another victim of ATM theft. 

Is it not your wife that is the victim ..you say ..."I am the victim"?

[isaander]

update to theft.   good news!  bank has reluctantly admitted to making an error depositing her salary - it took them 2 days and several phone calls so there was no 2nd theft of 6000.  we will follow up about the first theft of 15,000 and post FYI.   the bank book was  lost over 8 years ago so I don't think it played a role in the theft but I appreciate the useful information.  I posted that I am the victim because the bank card was in my care and I manage of income and expenses - yes I know its strange.  thank you for the feedback and advice - this has been and continues to be quite an education for me in spite of living here over a decade.      

[Expatthailover]

17 hours ago, colinneil said:

Her salary deposited in Taugausau bank?

Never heard of that, i thought government employees were paid via Krung Thai bank.

Things dont add up, so maybe your wife is not being truthful with you, you say only you have her bank card, sorry dont ring true.

Many ladies here are not honest with their farang husbands regarding money, my ex -wife never ever told me the truth about money.

I am not doubting what you say, but i think you should be looking closer to home, for the answer.

I am surprised a happy go lucky devil may care guy like you has an ex wife.

You strike me as the sort that a woman would cherish.

That you are suspicious of the thai woman ( thai being the main descriptor) in this instance startles me even more so.

Always such a champion of the local populace of the land you voluntarily emigrated to and where you choose to remain.  I'm stunned col...just stunned. 

Certainly in good old back home the women are pure as the driven snow and would never rip their partners off...no sirree.

 

[colinneil]

1 minute ago, Expatthailover said:

I am surprised a happy go lucky devil may care guy like you has an ex wife.

You strike me as the sort that a woman would cherish.

That you are suspicious of the thai woman ( thai being the main descriptor) in this instance startles me even more so.

Always such a champion of the local populace of the land you voluntarily emigrated to and where you choose to remain.  I'm stunned col...just stunned. 

Certainly in good old back home the women are pure as the driven snow and would never rip their partners off...no sirree.

 

??

[Jip99]

10 minutes ago, Expatthailover said:

 

Certainly in good old back home the women are pure as the driven snow and would never rip their partners off...no sirree.

 

 

 

Good point.

 

 

I am sure the stats will bear that out.

 

I would wager that there are significantly more Thai women that have ripped off their partners compared to their western counterparts.

 

Interestingly, Colin has experience of both ends of the spectrum - one wife (ex) who robbed him blind and one wife (current) who you could trust with the Koh i Noor diamond... that personal experience qualifies him, I would say.

[scorecard]

On 8/31/2018 at 5:19 PM, isaander said:

I appreciate your comments and in no way offended.  and thanks for asking your wife.  since I know where my wife was in the 2 hour window that the second theft had occurred I start to wonder if a card was cloned in the first theft and used for the second.  but then how would they guess my new 6 digit pin.  I didn't even tell my wife.  I don't think 2 pins can exist for 1 account?  you are correct I did not talk to the bank as they don't speak any English and its my wife's account but our next step would seem to be the police.   

 

... next step police.... and quickly.

 

Don't take the risk of the police commenting /asking '...why didn't you report this quickly...'

 

Further, if someone has fully cloned a card and used it, just how long does the bank keep any video of folks at the ATM machine? I don't know the answer to that but my guess (purely guess) is that it's not more than a few days, perhaps even less. 

 

On a different note, people are commenting about dishonest Thai wives. This comment is a bit one-sided, there's also the general possibility of dishonest farang husbands, and there's plenty of examples been shared here on TV.  

 

I totally trusted my sadly departed Thai wife (she was a doctor of medicine, spoke perfect English), we shared every little detail of our finances and other family matters in every detail, both made sure banking and other family documents were kept secure, she was serious about trusting each other, that was her nature and she worked hard, and I worked hard to ensure nothing could ever be doubted.

[masuk]

I was concerned about a similar thing happening, and I opened a savings account, with NO link to any card.   My pension is paid direct to the savings account.    I simply use e-banking and move some funds to the card account before I head to an ATM or store.

[cracker1]

17 hours ago, isaander said:

I just looked on the bank card - it has in English "bank for agriculture".    definitely not KTB.   am aware our financial arrangement is strange for isaan but it works for us.  she works hard and I am retired.   what you commented is very common here but in this case I know it wasn't her and her bank card was always in my possession.

If she has set up "Internet Banking" then she would not need to use the ATM card !

You need to check further.

[KhunBENQ]

1 hour ago, isaander said:

the bank book was  lost over 8 years ago so I don't think it played a role in the theft but I appreciate the useful information.

She should clear this situation.

The bankbook is THE key/legal document for the account.

 

It may or may not be necessary to report the loss at the police station and then take report to the bank.

It will be interesting to hear what then happens.

I don't have an exact idea but I doubt that they will print transactions for the last 8 years.

 

[scorecard]

14 minutes ago, masuk said:

I was concerned about a similar thing happening, and I opened a savings account, with NO link to any card.   My pension is paid direct to the savings account.    I simply use e-banking and move some funds to the card account before I head to an ATM or store.

 

Very similar, 1 or 2 accounts, different banks, with no ATM or other card ever issued. I live not far from both banks, easy to go in and physically transfer some funds to my main internet banking account (no cards ever issued and never will be) as needed, and then to the account that does have an ATM card as needed. Always avery small balance in this account.

 

My Thai adult son does exactly the same.  A couple of times he's had reason to speak to the 'service staff' at one of the banks and they have tried hard to push him to start ATM cards for all of his accounts. Suddenly a document is put in front of him with 'just sign here'.  Son refuses and says 'what is this document, there is no detail whatever, why are you asking me to sign blank documents?' The 'ohh it's not a regulation of the Bank of Thailand (BOT), every account has to have an ATM card'. Son grabs the document, screws it up and puts it in his bag. 

 

This is just lies, there is no such policy or regulations on any saving account, new or old, I checked by calling the BOT.

 

So why do bank staff do this? EAsy answer, they get a commission for every card issued. 

 

 

 

[scorecard]

On 9/1/2018 at 10:07 AM, KhunBENQ said:

She should clear this situation.

The bankbook is THE key/legal document for the account.

 

It may or may not be necessary to report the loss at the police station and then take report to the bank.

It will be interesting to hear what then happens.

I don't have an exact idea but I doubt that they will print transactions for the last 8 years.

 

It is a legal requirement that the customer has to present a police report to get a replacement bank book.

 

Whether all banks follow this requirement is another point.

[action]

It seems a little concerning that the bank book was lost 8 years ago.  Possible it fell into someone's hands this many years later?  I'd get a new account and new bank book first.  I'm surprised you could use the account for 8 years without the book.  I have accounts at three different Thai banks and they all need that book to do almost anything.  

 

Side Note:  I've been with my Thai wife for 11 years.  We share bank accounts, share ATM cards and PIN numbers and we trust each other completely.  To say "Thai women this, and Thai girls that" is silly.  If you fall into this category you may want to take a look at the kind of relationships you have and the kind of people you seek out.  Since 99% of the women in this country are Thai, you may as well say that girls with 10 fingers are untrustworthy.  

[Tchooptip]

1 hour ago, Jip99 said:

 

 

Good point.

 

 

I am sure the stats will bear that out.

 

I would wager that there are significantly more Thai women that have ripped off their partners compared to their western counterparts.

 

Interestingly, Colin has experience of both ends of the spectrum - one wife (ex) who robbed him blind and one wife (current) who you could trust with the Koh i Noor diamond... that personal experience qualifies him, I would say.

Do you mean qualify him to put most Thai women in his ex-wife category?

[jgarbo]

18 hours ago, samsensam said:

 

long story short; gf at the time was a university lecturer, i noticed her PIN was 9999, told her to change it as it was too easy for someone to see and remember when using an ATM, she didn't. money missing from account... i asked her did anyone go to the ATM with her recently? yes, a colleague. i said look there first. she didnt believe me. police involved, turned out the colleague admitted she had noticed her PIN, took her bank card from her bag at lunch, emptied the account (i dont remember how much but quite a bit).

 

conclusion; university took no action, police took no action, gf didnt get all the money back either due to taking pity on the colleagues sob story - the same person who had stolen from her.

Well your "acharn" g/f was "kreng jai", which is correct if she was the elder. Forgive the "sin" (not a crime if there was a desperate need for the money) and work it out later. Your g/f was a "good person".  You were lucky to know her.

[Jip99]

3 minutes ago, Tchooptip said:

Do you mean qualify him to put most Thai women in his ex-wife category?

 

 

Ha Ha...... you must have met Colin..     ?