Sweden faces political deadlock after far-right gains

[Morch]

3 hours ago, bristolboy said:

So let me get this straight. You quote my post which is about the massive unlikelihood of sharia law ever gaining official status in Sweden. But your reply had nothing to do with that. Rather it was just a generalized comment about the nature of coalitions and how they change over time - the kind of thing that might be snippeted out of a course in polisci 101. And your closing remark about the gradual advance (or erosion) was just a little bit more of the same. Sounds believable.

 

You're not interested in getting anything straight, you're just into pointless deflection arguments. And you repeatedly  keep twisting and misrepresenting what I post, this one ain't different.

 

Let's try again, though. My point was that IMO the either/or "choice" probably doesn't apply. Sectarian parties can gain concessions without achieving a majority, and such concessions need not be the full blown version of their goals.

 

You can waffle on about it being 101 this or that. It still beats your nonsense, and dishonest either/or formulations, misleading versions of what was posted, straw-men and absolute claims as to the impossibility of this or the other.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

absolutely 100 % correct, i wish to add australia with its zero tolerance boat policy. thereto israel which passed in july a law , which does not allow palestinians to resettle in israel. we jewis make sure to remain the mayority in israel also we built a wall to keep them out. even sweden

restricted family reunion to almost 0. to my knowledge turkey built border fortifications along its syrian frontieres where soldiers shoot at intruders.

 

wbr

roobaa01

I hope the mods read your post

 

Trust me, Sweden is very far from Israel.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

You're not interested in getting anything straight, you're just into pointless deflection arguments. And you repeatedly  keep twisting and misrepresenting what I post, this one ain't different.

 

Let's try again, though. My point was that IMO the either/or "choice" probably doesn't apply. Sectarian parties can gain concessions without achieving a majority, and such concessions need not be the full blown version of their goals.

 

You can waffle on about it being 101 this or that. It still beats your nonsense, and dishonest either/or formulations, misleading versions of what was posted, straw-men and absolute claims as to the impossibility of this or the other.

Sectarian parties may be able to gain some things. But in a nation like Sweden, the odds are infinitesimal that they would ever secure any form of Sharia Law. From the left and center, because of firm opposition to any established religion.And there is also the issue of women's right. Swedish has the strongest laws in the world in support of equal rights for women.

 From the right because it's Islam that's getting special treatment, not Christianity. It would be political suicide for virtually any political party (except an Islamic one) in any foreseeable Swedish future to support any special treatment of Islam.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Sectarian parties may be able to gain some things. But in a nation like Sweden, the odds are infinitesimal that they would ever secure any form of Sharia Law. From the left and center, because of firm opposition to any established religion.And there is also the issue of women's right. Swedish has the strongest laws in the world in support of equal rights for women.

 From the right because it's Islam that's getting special treatment, not Christianity. It would be political suicide for virtually any political party (except an Islamic one) in any foreseeable Swedish future to support any special treatment of Islam.

 

Keep propping up them straw-men, it's all the "argument" you've got. I didn't make any claims regarding a full blown Sharia Law being instituted, that's just your either/or hypocritical nonsense formulations.

 

You can also assert whatever other nonsense you like - that things were A doesn't mean they cannot or will not morph into B (or, more correctly into an 'a'). Your faith in democratic traditions is heartwarming, but considering the OP got something to do with a a party not fully subscribed to this agenda, perhaps not a solid proposition. I wouldn't underestimate what politicians will agree to when push comes to shove (as in, when political power and survival are on the line).

 

Indeed, the Left (or center, whatever) is a more likely party to such concessions and cooperation. It could be construed in many ways - acknowledging cultural heritage and sensitivities, freedom of expression, or a necessary evil to block extreme right forces. No shortage of justifications. 

[aright]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

 

Trust me, Sweden is very far from Israel.

2143 miles

[bristolboy]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Keep propping up them straw-men, it's all the "argument" you've got. I didn't make any claims regarding a full blown Sharia Law being instituted, that's just your either/or hypocritical nonsense formulations.

 

You can also assert whatever other nonsense you like - that things were A doesn't mean they cannot or will not morph into B (or, more correctly into an 'a'). Your faith in democratic traditions is heartwarming, but considering the OP got something to do with a a party not fully subscribed to this agenda, perhaps not a solid proposition. I wouldn't underestimate what politicians will agree to when push comes to shove (as in, when political power and survival are on the line).

 

Indeed, the Left (or center, whatever) is a more likely party to such concessions and cooperation. It could be construed in many ways - acknowledging cultural heritage and sensitivities, freedom of expression, or a necessary evil to block extreme right forces. No shortage of justifications. 

You can create all the improbably scenarios you like. I'll stick to the ones based on common sense and the reality of Swedish attitudes left, right, and center.

[My Thai Life]

33 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I'll stick to the ones based on common sense and the reality of Swedish attitudes left, right, and center.

And you've spent how much time in Sweden?

[melvinmelvin]

On 9/16/2018 at 3:50 PM, melvinmelvin said:

sorry guys,

dont understand what is going on, the file above is correct enough but its all in Swedish

I made a job of translating the stuff to english,

when I look at the file on my laptop I see the english

 

uploading it, all in swedish

 

double crap - I'll have another belhaven

 

 

 

now,

another go at giving you the official results in an English dressing

 

 

 

Hela landet.docx

[bristolboy]

41 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

And you've spent how much time in Sweden?

And you would take the word of an anonymous poster? I'm touched by your faith.

[My Thai Life]

12 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

And you would take the word of an anonymous poster? I'm touched by your faith.

You are only anonymous because you don't want to say anything about yourself, other than that you stayed with a British mining family during the miners' strike in the UK. If you have said anything else I've missed it.

 

And yes I do tend to take people at their word; as I don't lie about myself I expect the same courtesy from other people.

[bristolboy]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

You are only anonymous because you don't want to say anything about yourself, other than that you stayed with a British mining family during the miner's strike in the UK. If you have said anything else I've missed it.

 

And yes I do tend to take people at their word; as I don't lie about myself I expect the same courtsey from other people.

There are 2 kinds of people who say that they don't lie about themselves: those that don't and those that do. I prefer to stick to independently verifiable facts.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

You can create all the improbably scenarios you like. I'll stick to the ones based on common sense and the reality of Swedish attitudes left, right, and center.

 

You can call anything that doesn't fit with your faulty arguments, "improbable" - it doesn't make it so.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, bristolboy said:

There are 2 kinds of people who say that they don't lie about themselves: those that don't and those that do. I prefer to stick to independently verifiable facts.

Lol. This is a forum, not a court of law. People who hide the truth about themselves just add to the anomie and alienation. But I have noticed that the international politico cadre on this forum rarely if ever post on Thai-related threads, and usually don't reveal anything about themselves. Weird.

 

Back to the topic -  it's now clear you have no personal experience of Sweden.

[melvinmelvin]

 

The newly elected MPs in Sweden will meet tomorrow.

The task for tomorrow is to elect/agree on Speaker and Vice Speaker(s?).

 

In a press release yesterday (or was it Friday?) the SD proclaimed that they would vote for the candidate from the blue block.

So that should be Speaker sorted provided the blue block votes for their own candidate.

 

Next, the new national assembly will meet on Tuesday, task: sort out who will be PM.

 

Both blocks still maintain the view that they will not form government or coop with SD in order to secure majority.

 

Will probably take a few days to sort out the PM. Busy days for the new Speaker.

The Speaker has 4 goes at securing a PM. If the Speaker's 4th proposal fails then there will be new elections.

 

[bristolboy]

On 9/17/2018 at 10:43 PM, My Thai Life said:

Lol. This is a forum, not a court of law. People who hide the truth about themselves just add to the anomie and alienation. But I have noticed that the international politico cadre on this forum rarely if ever post on Thai-related threads, and usually don't reveal anything about themselves. Weird.

 

Back to the topic -  it's now clear you have no personal experience of Sweden.

And some of us are aware of a phenomenon called observer bias and another called perceptual set. 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Today's exercise completed.

 

The candidate from the largest party in the blue block has been elected Speaker, (as expected).

 

The PM game starts tomorrow.

 

The sitting PM refuses to resign (not usual in Sweden), probably he wants to be voted out

thereby demonstrating that SD goodwill is needed in order to rule in Sweden.

 

So far I have not seen the possibility of a minority government mentioned.

 

There are speculations that some parties may change from blue to red block.

Also some speculation re coop between red and blue block.

 

 

 

[GinBoy2]

This is more of an early morning musing for me.

But are we falling into the trap of calling nationalists, far right??

I'm an American, so suffering through Trump. So he's definitely a nationalist, far right? Well that debatable!

I'd probably suspect that many of the European 'far right' may well fall into that category.

There is a tendency to depict anyone that espouses nationalist views as 'far right'.
I'm not sure i agree with that

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, GinBoy2 said:

This is more of an early morning musing for me.

But are we falling into the trap of calling nationalists, far right??

I'm an American, so suffering through Trump. So he's definitely a nationalist, far right? Well that debatable!

I'd probably suspect that many of the European 'far right' may well fall into that category.

There is a tendency to depict anyone that espouses nationalist views as 'far right'.
I'm not sure i agree with that

 

matter of semantics isn't it?

what does far right mean? to me it means very conservative or ultra conservative if you like, dark blue

 

Trump, nationalist - yes. far right? to me yes. to me he is ultra conservative - hence, far right

(and I suspect he has some severe fascist streaks)

 

agree with your last bit, that tendency is there

 

[melvinmelvin]

This morning (Swedish time) the new national assembly will meet before the official opening of the new assembly

to say yes/no to the current PM from the red block

seems most people expect the PM to be thrown

(the SD has not announced how they will vote re PM, as opposed to Speaker)

 

assuming that the red block supports its own PM he cannot be thrown without the assistance of SD

the red block is larger than the blue block

 

two of the blue parties, Liberals and Centre, made it crystal clear again yesterday that they flatly refuse

any kind of coop that opens up a door for SD,

ie they will not support a block that is dependent on SD votes

 

----

C and/or L move from blue to red block (which is not that far out) ?

a change of minds re coop with SD ?

a minority government ?

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Just looked a bit at some Swedish internet newspapers,

looks as if the SD part leader was interviewed on "Breakfast TV" this  early morning,

he is apparently totally pissed off that he has not been contacted  by the blue block re building of a government

before this morning's PM voting

he appears to have claimed that the blue block aint worth zilch, they are in minority and cant build a government

 

if this is a dodged signal that he will not help the blue block by voting out the PM this morning

the situation will be interesting indeed

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

The Swedish PM has just been voted down.

Normal practice is that he will lead an inter9m gov. until the assembly manages to find a PM and new ministers.

(I don't know if he has to be interim PM or if he can just walk away today and leave the shambles to the new assembly)

 

this means the SD has helped the blue block in voting down the PM,

vice or not vice of the SD?

My guess is that the blue block is now laughing all the way to the bank and that SD has just wasted one of their best cards.

 

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Read in some Swedish newspapers yesterday that the blue block might be on the verge of breaking up.

One of the smaller parties in the block is at the point of opening to form a government based on SD support.

This is the KD party, Christian Democrats.

 

The stance of the largest party in the blue block, M, is not quite clear to me.

 

The other two parties in the blue block, C and L (Centre and Liberal) are deadly against any contact with SD what so ever.

The L party leader voiced yesterday; This may be the end of the blue block.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

More newspaper reading;

yesterday and today the Speaker is conducting his talks with party leaders with a view to building a working gov.

 

Mr Akeson, the SD party leader has made it clear to the Speaker that they would not support a

blue block government with the leader of the largest blue party as PM.

He has further informed the speaker that his view is that there is no opening for a blue block government. 

 

Hopefully, the Speaker receives a decent salary, his job ain't easy.

 

[melvinmelvin]

Today the Speaker in the new parliament will conduct

his 2nd round of talks with the party leaders

with a view to finding someone that can build an operational government.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

A genuine 'thank you' to melvinmelvin for providing the updates.

 

I'm sure most of us have little idea of the Swedish, democratic process - and appreciate your info.

[Scott]

11 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

A genuine 'thank you' to melvinmelvin for providing the updates.

 

I'm sure most of us have little idea of the Swedish, democratic process - and appreciate your info.

Ditto to that.   Your updates are appreciated, @melvinmelvin

[melvinmelvin]

A genuine 'thank you' to melvinmelvin for providing the updates. 

  

I'm sure most of us have little idea of the Swedish, democratic process - and appreciate your info. 

16 minutes ago, Scott said:

Ditto to that.   Your updates are appreciated, @melvinmelvin

11 hours ago, dick dasterdly said: 

 

didnt come out well this trying to quote 2 posts

 

[melvinmelvin]

anyway, thank you for that

 

I just wish there were some Swedes around with interest for and insight in Swedish politics.   I can just read and listen to Swedish.

 

I find the situation in Sweden quite interesting. A long standing social democratic country which now has in its midst a large far-right party, the Sweden Democrats. Many, correct or not I don't really know, tend to describe SD as brown, ie fascist.  Opposition to immigration is one of their main issues.

 

The SD is so large that it makes it very difficult to build a government along traditional lines in Swedish politics without support from SD which no party wants.

 

Both Denmark and Norway have a far-right party, negative to mass immigration - yes, but these parties

are built upon other ideas than being negative to immigration.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

Today's efforts by the Speaker ended with the leader of the largest blue/conservative party, M, being given the mandate to try and build a government.

 

I read some newspaper interviews today where the leader of the C, Centre, party expressed that she is now open for discussing building a government with the largest socialist block.  She is quite popular in Sweden and if she goes along those lines that may soften the fronts.

 

[melvinmelvin]

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

anyway, thank you for that

 

I just wish there were some Swedes around with interest for and insight in Swedish politics.   I can just read and listen to Swedish.

 

I find the situation in Sweden quite interesting. A long standing social democratic country which now has in its midst a large far-right party, the Sweden Democrats. Many, correct or not I don't really know, tend to describe SD as brown, ie fascist.  Opposition to immigration is one of their main issues.

 

The SD is so large that it makes it very difficult to build a government along traditional lines in Swedish politics without support from SD which no party wants.

 

Both Denmark and Norway have a far-right party, negative to mass immigration - yes, but these parties

are built upon other ideas than being negative to immigration.

 

 

 

just adding a few words re these far-right parties

 

The Swedish SD was established in the late 80s. Started off as a micro party.

In 2005 or so today's leader took over and tidied up a bit and the party started to grow.

profile: no to multicultural societies - no to European Union - stringent immigration control - fight criminality

 

The Danish far-right party was established in early 70s by an extremely colourful lawyer, Mogens Glistrup.

Main focus was lower taxes and freer enterprise. Not muslim friendly.

Glistrup didn't use the term muslim, he called them Mohamedanes, he wanted them going back to Mohamedania

as he called it.

 

The Norwegian far-right was also established early 70s by a guy named Anders Lange.

I think the initial name of the party was:

Anders Lange's party for reduction in taxes and fees and reduction of undesirable government infringement in society.

Later, when it got some traction, the name was changed to Progress Party.

fighting criminality is a focus area, not muslim friendly

The leader of this party, a very experienced politician, is Minister of Finance in the current coalition government.