Israeli troops kill boy, two men in Gaza protests - medics

[Morch]

49 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve not determined anything, I’ve simply based my ‘assumptions’ on the report in the OP.

 

But you are correct the circumstances of the child’s killing are already being contested.

 

All the more reason for an open and transparent inquest within a civilian court.

 

You can go whistle with your accusation of me holding Israel to a higher srandard, I’m ‘suggesting’ Israel be held to the standards of Democratic society under the rule of law.

 

Your accusation that I have general issues with armed forces is groundless.

 

Openess and transparency, the friend of truth and justice.

 

And by extension the enemy of liars and the unjust.

 

Your objections are noted.

 

 

Carry on.

 

You have stated your assumption as fact. No qualifying remarks, no hint of acknowledgement facts may be different. So please, spare the deflections.

 

That you are, in fact, expecting Israel to stand up to higher standards than those exhibited elsewhere, is another fact, which you choose to address with another lame deflection. I doubt you could soundly demonstrate that "open and transparent" investigations under a civilian court are a universal norm, even as things apply to the supposed "standards of democratic society under the rule of law".

 

As for the comment about you having general issues with armed forced being "groundless" - refer to your own post, and specifically to "many of the world’s armed forces cannot in anyway be held up as defenders of anything resembling justice".

 

Your demands for an investigation are one-sided, and disregard the actual conditions prevailing. None of what you posted addresses these points.

 

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, dexterm said:

>>I'm pointing out that when it comes to military actions such investigations are not a universal norm.
...nonsense! When soldiers or police kill 11 year old civilians it most certainly is the norm to investigate...well, in western democracies that is.

 

In that there are conflicting reports (according to your link) about the boy's death would it not make sense to have an open and transparent investigation? Otherwise looks like Israel is simply muddying the waters and has something to hide. 

 

Nonsense would aptly describe most of your posts, and the "obligatory" spins aside the current is no different. That you claim "open and transparent" investigations, under "civilian court" are the norm with regard to military operations, that's a rather tall order, which I doubt you could support in any meaningful way.

 

The link is from AP, you want to paint it as "my link" in order to minimize it, go right ahead. As for conducting investigations, I don't see you or the other poster going on about it mentioning the Palestinian side as a potential party to or object of such. Just the usual one-sided drivel.

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, dexterm said:

'She said her son had been going to the protests in recent months but she had been opposed. “I banned him but he was going behind our backs,” said the grieving mother.'

https://www.timesofisrael.com/conflicting-reports-surround-gaza-boys-death-at-border-protest/

 

Most kids at that age do some pretty dumb things without their parents' permission.
Please don't blame the victim.

 

Kindly stop twisting my words. I didn't "blame the victim". I'm saying parents, organizers and authorities cannot be absolved of responsibility. As an aside, considering that you've actually "blamed the victims" when the roles are reversed, doesn't lend your faux plea much credibility anyhow.

[dexterm]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Kindly stop twisting my words. I didn't "blame the victim". I'm saying parents, organizers and authorities cannot be absolved of responsibility. As an aside, considering that you've actually "blamed the victims" when the roles are reversed, doesn't lend your faux plea much credibility anyhow.

Strangely you appear to be blaming anyone other than the IDF soldiers who actually pull the triggers, the chain of IDF command who issue the orders and the politicians who make policy for these "open-fire regulations"

 

Wouldn't a simpler solution than blaming the victim be for the IDF to stop using live ammunition as a form of first resort crowd control.

Win win. People dont get killed and Israel doesn't get the bad PR.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You have stated your assumption as fact. No qualifying remarks, no hint of acknowledgement facts may be different. So please, spare the deflections.

 

That you are, in fact, expecting Israel to stand up to higher standards than those exhibited elsewhere, is another fact, which you choose to address with another lame deflection. I doubt you could soundly demonstrate that "open and transparent" investigations under a civilian court are a universal norm, even as things apply to the supposed "standards of democratic society under the rule of law".

 

As for the comment about you having general issues with armed forced being "groundless" - refer to your own post, and specifically to "many of the world’s armed forces cannot in anyway be held up as defenders of anything resembling justice".

 

Your demands for an investigation are one-sided, and disregard the actual conditions prevailing. None of what you posted addresses these points.

 

I’ve stated the way to get to the truth and justice is by means of an open and transparent inquiry before a civilian court.

 

Away with you and your breathless accusations.

 

Carry on.

 

 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve stated the way to get to the truth and justice is by means of an open and transparent inquiry before a civilian court.

 

Away with you and your breathless accusations.

 

Carry on.

 

 

 

Away with your lame deflections, more like. Your concept of an investigation is one-sided, with results apparently decided. And despite your attempts to backtrack, you did include a rather straightforward assertions, not leaving a whole lot of room for doubt as to your views.

 

Nothing in your posts references actual conditions, an acknowledgement of Palestinian responsibility, or even a realistic take with regard to such investigations in general.

 

other than auto-repeating the same bogus assertions, you haven't actually addressed pointed raised, or managed to make a clear argument for your own position.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Away with your lame deflections, more like. Your concept of an investigation is one-sided, with results apparently decided. And despite your attempts to backtrack, you did include a rather straightforward assertions, not leaving a whole lot of room for doubt as to your views.

 

Nothing in your posts references actual conditions, an acknowledgement of Palestinian responsibility, or even a realistic take with regard to such investigations in general.

 

other than auto-repeating the same bogus assertions, you haven't actually addressed pointed raised, or managed to make a clear argument for your own position.

 

Look at the rant you are getting into Morch.

 

I’ve suggested an open transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of the child by Israeli forces (as reported in the OP) - I didn’t write the OP.

 

Since I don’t have any powers to influence such an inquest how can I possibly be asking for anything other than the impartiality that comes from openess and transparency.

 

The rsponsibility for the death of the child is in the hands of the person or persons who killed him.  

 

Let that be determined by an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court.

 

Your objects to openess and transparency in determining who killed this child and why they chose to do so are noted.

 

Perhaps you are afraid of truth and justice.

 

Carry on.

 

 

[The manic]

On 9/15/2018 at 5:03 AM, mzanzi said:

These transgressions that Israel commit are so typical of a state that practices apartheid . Excessive force , followed by lies , then more lies , then steal more land under the watchful eye of big brother America , and every illegal action is applauded and supported by America.

When will the so called Palestinians stop training their children to be Judaphobic racist, terrorists? Their behaviour is repugnant.  When will the Arab world and their socialist, liberal supporters condem the Abuse of Children by so called Palestinians ? This picture sums it all up. Children being trained to be suicide bombers! What is an Israeli supposed to do? Yeild to these maniacs?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, The manic said:

When will the so called Palestinians stop training their children to be Judaphobic racist, terrorists? Their behaviour is repugnant. 

Your gross generalization and denial of Palestinian identity is repugnant.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Look at the rant you are getting into Morch.

 

I’ve suggested an open transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of the child by Israeli forces (as reported in the OP) - I didn’t write the OP.

 

Since I don’t have any powers to influence such an inquest how can I possibly be asking for anything other than the impartiality that comes from openess and transparency.

 

The rsponsibility for the death of the child is in the hands of the person or persons who killed him.  

 

Let that be determined by an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court.

 

Your objects to openess and transparency in determining who killed this child and why they chose to do so are noted.

 

Perhaps you are afraid of truth and justice.

 

Carry on.

 

 

 

Look at the way you constantly apply deflections and spins.

 

Twist it all you like, your comments were not even remotely qualified, but asserted blame already. Impartiality got nothing to do with your posts, considering the one-sided nature of your demands and arguments.

 

As for the bogus "I don't have any powers" bit - nice straw-man, but no such point was raised. Nor is it relevant with regard to laying the blame in a one-sided manner. You do not express any point of view which applies them lofty notions of "transparency" and "openness" with regard to the Palestinian side (which got a free pass on unclear grounds).

 

Spin it all you like, there's no way to apply wholesale absolution with regard to parents, organizers and authorities on the Palestinian side. If you wish to take the point that they are not accountable for anything whatsoever, that kinda puts a damper on treating any claim they raise seriously.

 

Your standing nonsense about "open and transparent inquest before a civilian court" disregard the fact that conducting such a hypothetical investigation would required cooperation between the sides, never mind an agreed upon impartial court.

 

 

My objections are to your nonsense posts, please do not twist my words.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Your gross generalization and denial of Palestinian identity is repugnant.

 

Your gross denial of reality is pathetic. Same goes for the lame deflections on offer.

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Look at the way you constantly apply deflections and spins.

 

Twist it all you like, your comments were not even remotely qualified, but asserted blame already. Impartiality got nothing to do with your posts, considering the one-sided nature of your demands and arguments.

 

As for the bogus "I don't have any powers" bit - nice straw-man, but no such point was raised. Nor is it relevant with regard to laying the blame in a one-sided manner. You do not express any point of view which applies them lofty notions of "transparency" and "openness" with regard to the Palestinian side (which got a free pass on unclear grounds).

 

Spin it all you like, there's no way to apply wholesale absolution with regard to parents, organizers and authorities on the Palestinian side. If you wish to take the point that they are not accountable for anything whatsoever, that kinda puts a damper on treating any claim they raise seriously.

 

Your standing nonsense about "open and transparent inquest before a civilian court" disregard the fact that conducting such a hypothetical investigation would required cooperation between the sides, never mind an agreed upon impartial court.

 

 

My objections are to your nonsense posts, please do not twist my words.

There you go again.

 

The only thing I’m suggesting is an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of this child.

 

There is no reason why such an inquest should not consider all aspects of the child’s killing.

 

What remains of your arguments is a clear fear of truth and justice.

 

Accusations from you about twisting other people’s words are beyond laughable.

 

Carry on.

[Chomper Higgot]

Open transparent inquests before civilian courts to examine the death of children serve truth and justice in open democratic societies the world over.

 

Emotional ranting and personal attacks don’t change the fact that openess and transparency is the friend of truth and justice, the enemy of liars and the unjust.

 

If the killing of this child was lawfully justified then there is nothing to hide.

[Morch]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

There you go again.

 

The only thing I’m suggesting is an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of this child.

 

There is no reason why such an inquest should not consider all aspects of the child’s killing.

 

What remains of your arguments is a clear fear of truth and justice.

 

Accusations from you about twisting other people’s words are beyond laughable.

 

Carry on.

 

You can backtrack all you like, or pretend you didn't post this or that. Doesn't later facts. There's no reference whatsoever in your posts to the Palestinian side being either a party to or an object of such investigations. The only references in this regard are to Israel. Spin away.

 

You have not demonstrated that such investigations are a norm, at least not in the manner portrayed. That you assert so doesn't make it so.

 

No meaningful comment as to why parents, organizers and authorities are absolved of responsibility and accountability. You simply assert that they aren't. That's not an argument.

 

I haven' twisted your words in the least. And other than you saying as much, you haven't even shown this to be so.

 

As for your new line of nonsense - I didn't even object to an investigation as such, but to your one-sided, lame rendering of such.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You can backtrack all you like, or pretend you didn't post this or that. Doesn't later facts. There's no reference whatsoever in your posts to the Palestinian side being either a party to or an object of such investigations. The only references in this regard are to Israel. Spin away.

 

You have not demonstrated that such investigations are a norm, at least not in the manner portrayed. That you assert so doesn't make it so.

 

No meaningful comment as to why parents, organizers and authorities are absolved of responsibility and accountability. You simply assert that they aren't. That's not an argument.

 

I haven' twisted your words in the least. And other than you saying as much, you haven't even shown this to be so.

 

As for your new line of nonsense - I didn't even object to an investigation as such, but to your one-sided, lame rendering of such.

 

Why on earth should I reference the Palestinian side?

 

The report in the OP states that the Israeli Military killed the child.

 

I don't need to back track on anything, I've called for an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court. 

 

Leave it to the inquest to determine the truth.

 

"As for your new line of nonsense - I didn't even object to an investigation as such, but to your one-sided, lame rendering of such."

 

So let me get that bit straight. Are you now saying that you would support and open and transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of this child?

 

 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

It’s one photo, it is not representative of anything other than what was in front of the lenses when the shutter was triggered.

 

But nice off topic rant.

 

There are plenty of such pictures available. Many featured in related past topics. Incitement to violence is a major issues when it comes to the Palestinian side, whether you like to acknowledge it or not. Unless mistaken, just last week Belgium cut funding for an educational program on such grounds. Your nonsense about it not being representative, is, as far as things are related to Gaza, counterfactual.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There are plenty of such pictures available. Many featured in related past topics. Incitement to violence is a major issues when it comes to the Palestinian side, whether you like to acknowledge it or not. Unless mistaken, just last week Belgium cut funding for an educational program on such grounds. Your nonsense about it not being representative, is, as far as things are related to Gaza, counterfactual.

Perhaps we can discuss the matter in those 'related past topics', it and all the rest of the bile in Manic's comment is off topic here.

 

 

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Why on earth should I reference the Palestinian side?

 

The report in the OP states that the Israeli Military killed the child.

 

I don't need to back track on anything, I've called for an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court. 

 

Leave it to the inquest to determine the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I got it that you feel Palestinian responsibility doesn't apply with regard with kids partaking in violent protests. That doesn't make your point of view a valid one, though.

 

The report details allegations, rather than "state". Doubt the difference would be lost on you in other circumstances.

 

You have "called" for a one-sided investigation, by one-side, and aimed at one-side. Now you prattle about impartiality.

 

Nothing in your posts addresses that such an investigation would be incomplete without full access to the Palestinian side or lacking its cooperation. Nor do your repeated comments acknowledge that the current state of affairs makes this impossible.

 

Considering you've already determined the framework which can be applied to the "truth", your comments are rather hollow.

 

To address the further nonsense you added at the bottom of your post - if there was an acceptable, agreed upon and objective mechanism for such, an investigation would not be an issue. Your version is no such thing.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Yes, I got it that you feel Palestinian responsibility doesn't apply with regard with kids partaking in violent protests. That doesn't make your point of view a valid one, though.

 

The report details allegations, rather than "state". Doubt the difference would be lost on you in other circumstances.

 

You have "called" for a one-sided investigation, by one-side, and aimed at one-side. Now you prattle about impartiality.

 

Nothing in your posts addresses that such an investigation would be incomplete without full access to the Palestinian side or lacking its cooperation. Nor do your repeated comments acknowledge that the current state of affairs makes this impossible.

 

Considering you've already determined the framework which can be applied to the "truth", your comments are rather hollow.

I have no idea how you 'got what I feel'.

 

I never expressed a view on the matter. 

 

Oh, I get it. You're imagining how I feel. 

 

Carry on.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Perhaps we can discuss the matter in those 'related past topics', it and all the rest of the bile in Manic's comment is off topic here.

 

 

 

Doubt you'll have anything but deflections on offer, regardless. As for "bile", I don't see you objecting to posters expressing such in the other direction.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Doubt you'll have anything but deflections on offer, regardless. As for "bile", I don't see you objecting to posters expressing such in the other direction.

I'm not going off topic Morch.

 

But thanks for the invite.

 

 

 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I have no idea how you 'got what I feel'.

 

I never expressed a view on the matter. 

 

Oh, I get it. You're imagining how I feel. 

 

Carry on.

 

You have repeatedly expressed the view that the Palestinian side is not responsible. If that's not a representation of how you feel, do tell.

[Chomper Higgot]

Just now, Morch said:

 

You have repeatedly expressed the view that the Palestinian side is not responsible. If that's not a representation of how you feel, do tell.

I have never once said the Palestine side is not responsible.

 

I have said the person or person's who killed the child are responsible - An open and transparent inquest before a civil court should determine who that is.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I'm not going off topic Morch.

 

But thanks for the invite.

 

 

 

 

Not when it doesn't bode well for your "arguments", at least. 

[dexterm]

16 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, I got it that you feel Palestinian responsibility doesn't apply with regard with kids partaking in violent protests. That doesn't make your point of view a valid one, though.

 

The report details allegations, rather than "state". Doubt the difference would be lost on you in other circumstances.

 

You have "called" for a one-sided investigation, by one-side, and aimed at one-side. Now you prattle about impartiality.

 

Nothing in your posts addresses that such an investigation would be incomplete without full access to the Palestinian side or lacking its cooperation. Nor do your repeated comments acknowledge that the current state of affairs makes this impossible.

 

Considering you've already determined the framework which can be applied to the "truth", your comments are rather hollow.

An open and transparent inquiry would be just that.

Investigators could examine all evidence from both sides. 

If either side refuses to co-operate, it hinders discovering the truth and hands the other side a PR coup, if they do co-operate.

 

It seems patently obvious to most honest observers.

 

What does Israel or Hamas have to lose apart from credibility?

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Yes, I got it that you feel Palestinian responsibility doesn't apply with regard with kids partaking in violent protests. That doesn't make your point of view a valid one, though.

 

The report details allegations, rather than "state". Doubt the difference would be lost on you in other circumstances.

 

You have "called" for a one-sided investigation, by one-side, and aimed at one-side. Now you prattle about impartiality.

 

Nothing in your posts addresses that such an investigation would be incomplete without full access to the Palestinian side or lacking its cooperation. Nor do your repeated comments acknowledge that the current state of affairs makes this impossible.

 

Considering you've already determined the framework which can be applied to the "truth", your comments are rather hollow.

 

To address the further nonsense you added at the bottom of your post - if there was an acceptable, agreed upon and objective mechanism for such, an investigation would not be an issue. Your version is no such thing.

"To address the further nonsense you added at the bottom of your post - if there was an acceptable, agreed upon and objective mechanism for such, an investigation would not be an issue. Your version is no such thing." (invective struck through  because I know you believe in civil debate).

 

When I suggest and open and transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of this child, I expect the court itself has procedures and means to determine the scope of inquiry. You should not expect me to stipulate these in a post of TVF. 

 

The  whole idea of 'Open and transparent inquest before a civilian court' is to remove bias by the independence of the civilian court and demonstrate fairness and a lack of bias by 'openness and transparency'.

 

I firmly believe that in a democratic society under the rule of law, like Israel, this is very achievable, I would hope a reasonable expectation.

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I have never once said the Palestine side is not responsible.

 

I have said the person or person's who killed the child are responsible - An open and transparent inquest before a civil court should determine who that is.

 

Playing word games, then. Fine.

 

You have rejected or deflected any argument and comment to the effect that someone on the Palestinian side (parents, organizers, authorities) is accountable in any way. I think you'll have a hard time framing it as anything other than a position seeing the Palestinian side as "not responsible".

 

 

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, dexterm said:

An open and transparent inquiry would be just that.

Investigators could examine all evidence from both sides. 

If either side refuses to co-operate, it hinders discovering the truth and hands the other side a PR coup, if they do co-operate.

 

It seems patently obvious to most honest observers.

 

What does Israel or Hamas have to lose apart from credibility?

 

More of your usual dishonest nonsense.

 

Both your comments and the other poster banging on about the same continuously reference one-side, not two. Both incorporate the view that Israel is the guilty party, and that the Palestinian are not responsible. Now you try for a new spin. Good luck with that.

 

As you are well aware, there is no such agreed upon, objective mechanism available.

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Playing word games, then. Fine.

 

You have rejected or deflected any argument and comment to the effect that someone on the Palestinian side (parents, organizers, authorities) is accountable in any way. I think you'll have a hard time framing it as anything other than a position seeing the Palestinian side as "not responsible".

 

 

Oh, I've focussed on the idea that an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court is the means to determine the truth.

 

 

Sorry about that. 

[Chomper Higgot]

Courts of inquest, do they only look at one side of the evidence?