Israeli troops kill boy, two men in Gaza protests - medics

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

"To address the further nonsense you added at the bottom of your post - if there was an acceptable, agreed upon and objective mechanism for such, an investigation would not be an issue. Your version is no such thing." (invective struck through  because I know you believe in civil debate).

 

When I suggest and open and transparent inquest before a civilian court into the killing of this child, I expect the court itself has procedures and means to determine the scope of inquiry. You should not expect me to stipulate these in a post of TVF. 

 

The  whole idea of 'Open and transparent inquest before a civilian court' is to remove bias by the independence of the civilian court and demonstrate fairness and a lack of bias by 'openness and transparency'.

 

I firmly believe that in a democratic society under the rule of law, like Israel, this is very achievable, I would hope a reasonable expectation.

 

 

I believe in civil debate with civil posters. You aren't one, when it comes to certain topics.

 

What you "expect" is of no bearing. An Israeli investigation cannot be applied to the Palestinian side and vice versa. There's no access, and no cooperation. That you choose to ignore or feign ignorance on this score is another indication as to the quality of your "argument".

 

The whole idea of you going on about "open and transparent inquest before a civilian court" disregards both the point made above, and the comments made earlier to the effect that such investigation are not the norm.

 

What you pretend to believe is immaterial. You keep bringing up vague concepts, and treat them as if they were concrete, without actually bothering to demonstrate any of it.

 

Your whole line of reasoning relies on the assertion that Israel is the responsible party. That's hardly a recommendation as to the impartiality of the envisaged investigation. Your take is completely one-sided.

 

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Oh, I've focussed on the idea that an open and transparent inquest before a civilian court is the means to determine the truth.

 

 

Sorry about that. 

 

No, you're simply trolling. Try reading my post again and replying to the point instead of auto-repeating the same catchphrases over and over again.

[Rimmer]

A post introducing Yazidi women and Christians in Pakistan into the topic has been removed also a reply

[Morch]

10 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Courts of inquest, do they only look at one side of the evidence?

 

Does an Israeli court have full access to evidence on the Palestinian side? Is there full cooperation and disclosure? Are you pretending not to know the answers for these questions?

[dexterm]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Does an Israeli court have full access to evidence on the Palestinian side? Is there full cooperation and disclosure? Are you pretending not to know the answers for these questions?

Of course the ICC would be the best to investigate.

But if it's simply a matter of gathering evidence from the Palestinian side try the credible Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem off the top of my head.
If the Palestinians won't co-operate or lack credibility = PR coup for Israel.

 

Your links above seem to have had no trouble accessing gossip from the Palestinian side for their conflicting evidence smear campaign against the victim and his family.

 

Depends if there's a real desire to seek the truth.

[Morch]

Just now, dexterm said:

Of course the ICC would be the best to investigate.

But if it's simply a matter of gathering evidence from the Palestinian side try Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem off the top of my head.
If the Palestinians won't co-operate or lack credibility = PR coup for Israel.

 

Depends if there's a real desire to seek the truth.

 

Of course, you  keep ignoring the fact that the ICC is neither acceptable to both sides,  or necessarily deemed objective. And that's without rehashing sovereignty issues.

 

The organizations you mentioned are not law enforcement nor juristic entities. And the same reservations hold for them with regard to objectivity and impartiality. None of them, by the way got full cooperation or access as required.

[Chomper Higgot]

53 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Does an Israeli court have full access to evidence on the Palestinian side? Is there full cooperation and disclosure? Are you pretending not to know the answers for these questions?

Inquests frequently commence without full access to all parties/all evidence.

 

Perhaps they could start what is within Israeli jurisdiction by asking the question did or did not the Israeli forces kill the child?

 

If the answer to that is no then they can suspend inquiry until information on who did is available.

 

If the answer is yes, they can proceed to ask what specific threat this child pose to the security of Israel and/or the safety of Israeli forces that necessitated he be killed.

 

Forgive me if I don’t address your personal attacks.

[BestB]

Chomper Higgot, please explain to me the double standards by which you live and post.

 

When it came to UK proving evidence or any kind of public investigations , your strong point of view was that UK does not have to do any of that and there is no law forcing UK to do so

 

But when it comes to Israel or America, all over sudden your strong views do a uturn and evidence and public investigations are a must

 

Would really love to hear why and how your opinions change.

[Morch]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Inquests frequently commence without full access to all parties/all evidence.

 

Perhaps they could start what is within Israeli jurisdiction by asking the question did or did not the Israeli forces kill the child?

 

If the answer to that is no then they can suspend inquiry until information on who did is available.

 

If the answer is yes, they can proceed to ask what specific threat this child pose to the security of Israel and/or the safety of Israeli forces that necessitated he be killed.

 

Forgive me if I don’t address your personal attacks.

 

This stems from the point of view which considers Israel to be the accountable party - both in terms of guilt, and the responsibility to conduct investigation.

 

I wouldn't know that you're an authority on investigative or legal procedures, but regardless, your positions cast doubts as to the impartiality of your comments.

 

Framing things as either/or, yes-or-no is just a way of ignoring point made previously, in order to support your frail arguments.

 

There was no "personal attack" in the post you replied to, and as such goes - pot, kettle, black.

[Rimmer]

An inflammatory post and several replies have been removed

[overherebc]

23 hours ago, dexterm said:

The so called border is a unilaterally imposed line internationally officially recognized solely by Israel.

 

The OP is slightly misleading.
"The protesters want rights to lands Palestinians lost during the 1948 war of Israel's foundation"
The demonstrators do not want to harm or displace any Israelis who have colonized Palestine. They simply want to return to the lands they or their families were born in and from which they have been ethnically cleansed.

 

There is still plenty of land. 77% of Palestinian land and villages have never been built over by Israel.

 

An orderly gradual security vetted return of some elderly Palestinians to begin with, and an easing of the collective punishment blockade, would end the protests and the violence.

Do you honestly believe that?

[metisdead]

 

Why is it that these threads can never be discussed without inflammatory hyperbole and posturing? Somehow, members can't seem to help but act out their worst behavior. 

Since it proves impossible over and over and over again, I am going to save us all some stress.

 

 

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