The existential threat to Thai universities

[jayboy]

On 9/20/2018 at 9:30 AM, Khun Paul said:

Everybody I know in the Academic world, states quite categorically that Thai degrees are not worth the paper they are written on, those who take an English Major the vast Majority have a hard time even speaking English. I once had to tutor a young man who by luck had obtained a placement in a Engineering Uni in Australia, he needed help in his written English and knew he had to present a biopsy of his life in English upon joining, after three lessons he decided he knew enough, after joining the Unjiversity he was sent back to Thailand as his English was not acceptable , his aim was to get his Masters in Australia, as he had a BA from Thailand . he ended up with not getting his masters and the Thai University was written to by the Australian on e has to how he gained his BA. 

 

That is the Major problem, Thai Unis have almost NO CREDIBILITY 

I am not a member of the grammar police but in this instance given that you are making a perfectly fair point on the importance of adequate English usage, it is probably best to double check to ensure one's own post is not riddled with errors and clumsy expression.

[marcusarelus]

21 hours ago, seminomadic said:

Peerasit has done his research, and it's a great analysis, but s/he sure as sh!t hasn't spent any time working in a university

 

1) You're a middle class kid asking Santa for 5 Maseratis if you think you can get "quality scientific research [as] the major focus...along with [better] teaching." You don't get that. At this stage in Thailand's development, you just . don't . get . to . have . that....

 

Thailand needs to choose:

sacrifice the quality of the kids' education for the sake of just getting on the board with research development profile in Asian universities **in MAYBE a generation from now**

OR

give the kids the kind of education that isn't archaic, isn't holding them back, leaves them with some desire for further/lifelong learning (acknowledge this is an issue with tertiary ed globally), and doesn't simply fossilize their mostly docile nature into adulthood, and allows them to possibly "provide commensurate social, economic, political and scientific benefits to Thailand" as a result of said improved education and analyic thinking

 

You have to PICK ONE of these.

 

2) If you're oriented toward the "primary criterion" of research output, you're always going to be playing catch-up. The system is going to get more and more bent with who can boast the most 'research citations' and the flim-flammery that has been exploding in the last decade or so. You can pay people to 'like' your posts on social media and youtube to falsely increase your profile. It's coming with citations if it isn't already here. Playing this game of points for research to increase the perceived value of your university is wrong as it sacrifices the kids. Professors go jetsetting all over, presenting papers and it's not uncommon for them to be doing by cancelling classes - "the university's paying for me to go present my paper in Japan! Free trip! I get an audience! Just gotta cancel 3 days of class is all. No biggie." When you iterate that hundreds/thousands times over, that's a BIG cut into the students' time that they're supposed to be taught. Again, this is a global issue and I'm repeating what I said in the 1st point about sacrificing the quality of kids' education to be in some outfit's ostensible research ranking system...

 

but it needs to be said again, and again, and again. Thailand COULD take the lead in terms of increasing the quality of education by focusing on the professional development of teachers, really taking notes from other more developed countries' playbooks, but that's me asking my wife for a maserati for my bd.

Why are the schools in Korea and Japan and China so far ahead of Thailand?

[Rhys]

Oh... just let them have at it.. they can muck it up even more...

[zzaa09]

41 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

Why are the schools in Korea and Japan and China so far ahead of Thailand?

Or....the civilised West, for that matter.

Been obvious for some time.

[DavisH]

On 9/20/2018 at 3:57 PM, Pilotman said:

cheap yes, but it doesn't  do their prospects any good in the long rum.  My daughter (mixed race Brit/Thai ) is at a UK university. We never even considered for a moment her staying here to be 'educated' , so she went to a Brit High School, did her A Levels and then on to Uni. 

Good for you. But plenty of my Thai school graduates go on to study Masters and Ph.D.'s in the US, US, etc. Not every expat has a million baht for a top international school or is able to send them back home to study. 

[djayz]

On 9/20/2018 at 5:37 AM, Samui Bodoh said:

Good editorial.

 

"...At almost all Thai universities, the president selects the university council members, who then appoint the president, or vice versa. The professional model of searching for the most competent person to lead the university as practised within the world’s great universities has not yet arrived in Thailand..." 

 

The quote above is a microcosm of Thailand itself; a closed loop of people hoarding benefits at the cost of everyone else and the country itself. Why is Thai Governance so bad? Look no further than the training that future leaders receive.

 

"...Second, public universities need to manage their budgets more prudently. A recent study of nine public universities, seven of which are ranked in the top 10, revealed disturbing facts....

...The bulk of the budgets fund two expenditures: salary and compensation, and procurements that sustain the administrative system. Yet, in exchange for that budget money, the public universities do not provide commensurate social, economic, political and scientific benefits to Thailand...."

 

Again, a microcosm of Thailand itself. University budgets (and later Bureaucracy budgets) utilized mainly for the benefit of the university administrators (later Bureaucrats). When one asks why there is so much corruption within the Thai government, the answer is clearly that they learned it by example from their university days.

 

"...Yet, in exchange for that budget money, the public universities do not provide commensurate social, economic, political and scientific benefits to Thailand..."

 

Again, a microcosm of Thailand. In exchange for the budget, does the bureaucracy provide...? Nope, It is a self-sustaining privilege factory for its members; free health care, a job for life, generous pension, few (if any) responsibilities, etc etc etc.

 

"...As Thai universities have to compete in the world rankings... the primary criterion in appointing and rewarding faculty members and assessing the worth of keeping the schools or departments...."

 

Again, Thai governments 'compete' in world rankings; Health Care provided, Maternal Births/Deaths, Life Expectancy, Income Distribution, level of services, GDP, etc are all indicators of a country and its government. And, based on the indicators, Thailand lags...

 

An excellent Editorial, and one that has many, many lessons for the country as a whole. It is not a scientific fact, but the quality of a University system is, in my view, an excellent leading indicator of a country's future success.

 

Thailand's future? It could and should be looking better...

 

 

 

Well said Samui Bodoh! 

[Pilotman]

4 minutes ago, DavisH said:

Good for you. But plenty of my Thai school graduates go on to study Masters and Ph.D.'s in the US, US, etc. Not every expat has a million baht for a top international school or is able to send them back home to study. 

Well maybe so, but my view is that you don't have kids if you can't give them the best possible start in life. 'Plenty' go to the US?   If so, I bet their parents have spent a damn sight more than 1 million Baht on their education. My daughter's University charges just short of 1 million per year for foreign students. of course, as a British Citizen, as well as Thai, she only pays £9,000 per year.  Still a lot of course. 

[marcusarelus]

35 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Or....the civilised West, for that matter.

Been obvious for some time.

I specifically mentioned why are the schools in Korea and Japan and China so far ahead of Thailand because of the anti Asian education discussions here.  Who cares about the West?  Different culture and different situations.  Thailand is in Asia and should be compared to things Asian. 

[Sir Dude]

The reason why schools/universities are so far ahead in Korea or Japan is because their primary objective is not corruption and self-enrichment of civil servants that administrate said system. 

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, DavisH said:

Good for you. But plenty of my Thai school graduates go on to study Masters and Ph.D.'s in the US, US, etc. Not every expat has a million baht for a top international school or is able to send them back home to study. 

Generally Thai high school graduates do not go to academically selective Universities in the US or the UK, unless they have been prepared at one of the elite international schools or at good schools overseas.Thai high school students are in the main unfortunately not taught to think analytically or critically, and are more at home with box ticking exams rather than those that stretch the mind.On the other hand there are many outstanding Thais who take an undergraduate degree at one of the better Thai universities (okay not a very high bar) and then proceed to a a Masters or Doctorate at a decent university overseas.The great disadvantage even very able Thais have to contend with is the steaming pile of cultural nonsense they are spoon fed from an early age.I don't say all that Thai mumbo jumbo isn't necessary or won't work in the home environment but it tends to make Thais like ignorant children in the globalized environment.There is actually a reason why not one Thai has made any kind of serious impact in the wider world.There is actually a reason for the sorry history of under achievement.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

The reason why schools/universities are so far ahead in Korea or Japan is because their primary objective is not corruption and self-enrichment of civil servants that administrate said system. 

That would also apply to all the private schools?  But not the 11 ranked ones?

 

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/asian-university-rankings/2018

 

Seems to me if there are 11 ranked Universities in Thailand that they know how to do it right.  So the problem must not be systemic if these 11 escape and that the prep schools that get students ready for these 11 schools must also be good.  

I certainly don't have all the answers but feel that the Thai education system is adequate as is.  The people are on board who can make it better.  They don't need more money.  They need a guy from Singapore to run the place for a few years and promote the ones to positions of authority who need to be promoted. 

 

Why is this not going to happen?  Because the mayor runs the school.  Or the mayor does not run the school.  It's complicated.  I don't think there is a hard and fast rule who runs the government schools.  Maybe someone can tell me. 

 

Someone needs to run the schools who is accountable and evaluated on a regular basis. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by marcusarelus

[djayz]

On 9/20/2018 at 4:20 PM, Sakeopete said:

Thai education LOL my step-son who couldn't even pass high school got a bachelor degree attending classes on the weekend only. He missed half those days yet still graduated with a bachelor's degree in 2 years.

maybe he's gifted... Seriously, not everybody has the same study habits. 

[Fex Bluse]

8 hours ago, Pilotman said:

Well maybe so, but my view is that you don't have kids if you can't give them the best possible start in life. 'Plenty' go to the US?   If so, I bet their parents have spent a damn sight more than 1 million Baht on their education. My daughter's University charges just short of 1 million per year for foreign students. of course, as a British Citizen, as well as Thai, she only pays £9,000 per year.  Still a lot of course. 

Exactly. It's rather irresponsible, in my view, to have children and allow them to fall victim to poor Thailand education. I wouldn't forgive myself if I allowed such a thing to happen. What's the point of being an expat/provider if you can't provide (rhetorical)? 

[Lunchbob]

8 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

That would also apply to all the private schools?  But not the 11 ranked ones?

 

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/asian-university-rankings/2018

 

Seems to me if there are 11 ranked Universities in Thailand that they know how to do it right.  So the problem must not be systemic if these 11 escape and that the prep schools that get students ready for these 11 schools must also be good.  

I certainly don't have all the answers but feel that the Thai education system is adequate as is.  The people are on board who can make it better.  They don't need more money.  They need a guy from Singapore to run the place for a few years and promote the ones to positions of authority who need to be promoted. 

 

Why is this not going to happen?  Because the mayor runs the school.  Or the mayor does not run the school.  It's complicated.  I don't think there is a hard and fast rule who runs the government schools.  Maybe someone can tell me. 

 

Someone needs to run the schools who is accountable and evaluated on a regular basis. 

This is an important critique and idea. There are capable profs and systems if given the opportunity could quickly improve the quality, but the politics are dominated by corrupt, self serving dirt we can't seem to get rid of. Every time a high ranking change is made in hopes for reform it seems to settle back into the slime within a year. I don't know why.

[marcusarelus]

2 hours ago, Lunchbob said:

This is an important critique and idea. There are capable profs and systems if given the opportunity could quickly improve the quality, but the politics are dominated by corrupt, self serving dirt we can't seem to get rid of. Every time a high ranking change is made in hopes for reform it seems to settle back into the slime within a year. I don't know why.

It would behoove you to discover who manages the school system.  A.  Politicians  B.  Department of Education  C. Village leaders  D. Catholic Church   E. Others                   All of the above is a worthless answer.  Be specific.  Big part of problem is people discussing it don't know anything about it except anti Thai cliches. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by marcusarelus

[Pilotman]

On 9/21/2018 at 7:33 PM, marcusarelus said:

I specifically mentioned why are the schools in Korea and Japan and China so far ahead of Thailand because of the anti Asian education discussions here.  Who cares about the West?  Different culture and different situations.  Thailand is in Asia and should be compared to things Asian. 

How short sighted in a global World.  Live in your own bubble, is that your argument?   

[marcusarelus]

10 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

How short sighted in a global World.  Live in your own bubble, is that your argument?   

How many people from Harvard and Stanford are going to apply for the Banking job in Bangkok that requires speaking Thai and Chinese? 

 

The majority to Thai students will stay and work in Asia. For education purposes it is wise to compare schools in Asia. 

 

I have found on Thai Visa it is best not to mention things Western because of the ethnocentrism of many posters. 

[Pilotman]

13 minutes ago, marcusarelus said:

How many people from Harvard and Stanford are going to apply for the Banking job in Bangkok that requires speaking Thai and Chinese? 

 

The majority to Thai students will stay and work in Asia. For education purposes it is wise to compare schools in Asia. 

 

I have found on Thai Visa it is best not to mention things Western because of the ethnocentrism of many posters. 

My goodness, wild statement mate.  Many of the top, western,  law and accountancy firms in Bangkok, and in all other Asian Cities, are multi lingual top western university educated people.  I have  used Freshfields Bangkok for some of my legal work  in the past and the chap I dealt with is a Thai speaking , Cambridge educated Brit.  Many in that office do indeed speak Chinese, as well as Thai. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Pilotman

[marcusarelus]

4 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

My goodness, wild statement mate.  Many of the top, western,  law and accountancy firms in Bangkok, and in all other Asian Cities, are multi lingual top western university educated people.  I have  used Freshfields Bangkok for some of my legal work  in the past and the chap I dealt with is a Thai speaking , Cambridge educated Brit.  Many in that office do indeed speak Chinese, as well as Thai. 

What percent of college graduates employed in Thailand this year will be from Western Universities? 

[Pilotman]

3 hours ago, marcusarelus said:

What percent of college graduates employed in Thailand this year will be from Western Universities? 

No idea, and don't care.   It is the  misleading statement that I am challenging. 

[marcusarelus]

20 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

No idea, and don't care.   It is the  misleading statement that I am challenging. 

I would imagine that the percent of Western college graduates employed in Thailand is less than one tenth of one percent.  Therefore I think it is illogical to compare Thai universities with Western universities.  When an American student is admitted to an American university his high school grades are not compared to high school students in Hong Kong now are they?  Thai schools should be compared to Asian schools as they are in the same academic pool.  Your statement was misleading not mine. 

 

Thai students will be competing with Chinese students which I think are at a higher level than Western students in many areas and that should be reflected in the University rankings. 

 

As a result of the current trade war Chinese companies will be opening up in Thailand at an increasingly rapid rate and should have a reasonable standard to hire college graduates from Thai Schools compared in detail with Chinese students. 

 

For Thai education to improve it should study education in Singapore and Korea and China.  I fail to see how looking at education in the US or UK will serve any logical purpose. 

 

Thai students and teachers have far more in common with Asian students and teachers than anything or anyone in the West.

Edited September 24, 2018 by marcusarelus