Disorder, deal or dead-end: How will Brexit play out?

[bristolboy]

2 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The question is, how many times your personal view has been voted against in your local council or in British parliament. In democracy we try to get what we want, but it's not always the case.

 

If British parliament loses only 2% of what it wants, that's pretty incredible good record. 

 

 

Also, as the piece I linked to pointed out, it's not at all clear what that means. Is it referring to the British minister's vote. Or the MEP's vote. Sometimes the Minister votes one way and the MEP's another.

[CG1 Blue]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The question is, how many times your personal view has been voted against in your local council or in British parliament. In democracy we try to get what we want, but it's not always the case.

 

If British parliament loses only 2% of what it wants, that's pretty incredible good record. 

 

 

If I'm not happy with my local councillor I can express this at the ballot box. Up one level, I can do the same if I'm not happy with the government.

Our votes have less and less value the more layers there are. What can I do about the EU - vote for our local MEP, who might get elected to the EP, and if he/she does they will go to Brussels and try to influence policy among 27 other nations' MEPs.

I don't know if I'm expressing this clearly, but basically I'd prefer the UK parliament to be where the buck stops for us.

[CG1 Blue]

9 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

Also, as the piece I linked to pointed out, it's not at all clear what that means. Is it referring to the British minister's vote. Or the MEP's vote. Sometimes the Minister votes one way and the MEP's another.

Fair point. It's complicated.  Too complicated. That's part of the reason I don't like it.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

If I'm not happy with my local councillor I can express this at the ballot box. Up one level, I can do the same if I'm not happy with the government.

Our votes have less and less value the more layers there are. What can I do about the EU - vote for our local MEP, who might get elected to the EP, and if he/she does they will go to Brussels and try to influence policy among 27 other nations' MEPs.

I don't know if I'm expressing this clearly, but basically I'd prefer the UK parliament to be where the buck stops for us.

It's true that the less individual power we have for electing the upper layer MEP's to their position. It's also true that we have ridiculously little power to elect even our own MP's. 

 

This is where the trust of the system and it's checks and balances comes in. In the west, where we like to have more see through power structures, the larger base of electorate and people who represent us, tends to perform better for us, than a closed community of entitled political stooges. 

 

It's also true that we have to make more compromises, when we are part of larger entity. Sometimes we get what we want, sometimes other people's ideas are better supported by larger majority.

 

Overall, we do get a selection of the best possibilities, even if sometimes we feel left alone. 

[Retiredandhappyhere]

 

  10 hours ago, Rally123 said:

And what happens if we do not pay? I say stuff 'em.

And "Welovesundaysatsp" replied:

Maybe try it with your phone or gym contract to see what happens. 

 

 

Well, I guess that your membership would be cancelled and that would be it.   No paying for future financial commitments of the phone company or the Gym, whether or not contracted for during your membership.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Retiredandhappyhere
Missing second poster's name

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

 

  10 hours ago, Rally123 said:

And what happens if we do not pay? I say stuff 'em.

And "Welovesundaysatsp" replied:

Maybe try it with your phone or gym contract to see what happens. 

 

 

Well, I guess that your membership would be cancelled and that would be it.   No paying for future financial commitments of the phone company or the Gym, whether or not contracted for during your membership.

I had a rather sleazy Brazilian colleague, who said he can't go back to UK for 5 years because he topped out his multiple British credit cards and never paid anything back.

 

After 5 years his crimes would expire and his debts would be nullified. 

 

Does this sound like a good deal for a person who wishes to be respected and trusted in the future?

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

yet another Brexit thread,

 

I am impressed

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 hours ago, Retiredandhappyhere said:

 

Well, I guess that your membership would be cancelled and that would be it.   No paying for future financial commitments of the phone company or the Gym, whether or not contracted for during your membership.

Please go to Virgin tomorrow and sign a 12-months gym membership. Then cancel it after 1 month and tell them “that’s it”. Please report back here. 

[Rally123]

6 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

yet another Brexit thread,

 

I am impressed

'Thai Visa' must be struggling for stories to entertain the members. 'Brexit' seems to be a good crowd puller, so expect more.

[Rally123]

3 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Please go to Virgin tomorrow and sign a 12-months gym membership. Then cancel it after 1 month and tell them “that’s it”. Please report back here. 

It's available online.

 

 

Quote

4.3 What happens if you change your mind? You may notify us, by completing a Break Up Form at your Home Club, that you wish to cancel your membership within 14 calendar days from the date that you sign these Terms (“Cooling Off Period”). If you do so, we will refund your Total Upfront Payment and any Membership Dues which you have paid to us after you return your Membership Card or wristband, Wellness Key, Starter Pack, gifts and any documentation which we have provided to you upon joining. If you have used your membership during the Cooling Off Period, we will refund those amounts set out above, less the applicable Guest Fee for each visit, the fees for any personal training or other Club services you have received and a reasonable administration charge

We notified the EU we were leaving, so the EU should refund us any fees paid upfront. Simple innit?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Rally123

[melvinmelvin]

23 minutes ago, Rally123 said:

'Thai Visa' must be struggling for stories to entertain the members. 'Brexit' seems to be a good crowd puller, so expect more.

 

yes, yet another thread on the Salzburg results was opened this morning

 

gosh

 

[Chomper Higgot]

10 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't need to.  The information is in the public domain. Try google.

Your statement was:

 

“The UK have voted against EU legislation on 70+ occasions, and the legislation has been passed.”

 

Produce a reference to your claim that on the occasions the U.K. voted against EU legislation it was passed.

 

Either put up links to backup the catagorical statement you made or be known as someone who makes stuff up and presents it to others as ‘truth’.

 

You could of course get out of that by admitting you have nothing to backup your claim.

 

Your reputation on TVF,  your choice.

[Moonlover]

21 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

Please give your solution the the Irish problem. 

 

21 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

They can solve it with tech that is successfully used elsewhere if they really want to but this Ireland issue is being used as a weapon against the UK government as they (EU) don't want to discuss these solutions. However, if they do this then Ireland, especially the southern shores, will become the next magnet for illegal immigrants wanting to get to the UK and blag everything as new routes will be opened up from France to Ireland for all sorts of things. Hope the Irish are ready for it.

I do not believe that a 'tech' solution can possibly resolve the issue of the N. I./Irish border. It snakes for over 300 miles, through mainly rural territory and has 208 official crossing points and maybe 100 more private ones. The only way that border control could be imposed would be to go back to the 20 or so that were available to the public during the 'troubles'. Otherwise it would be a logistical nightmare.

 

Interfering with this border would be hugely unpopular on both sides, particularly amongst the republican community. An open, virually invisible border was a key element of the 'Good Friday' agreement which formally ended the 'troubles' some 20 years ago and reneging on that agreement, would, I'm sure provoke a backlash of one form or another.

 

It's worth noting that the Northern Irish community returned the nation's highest 'remain' vote of 67% in the referendum. And I'm sure the border one of the most important issues when the went to the polls.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Moonlover
Unfinished

[Basil B]

On 9/21/2018 at 5:42 AM, Phuket Man said:

Regardless of the non binding opinion poll of two years ago this nonsense needs to stop now before it is too late.

It's very clear that this is not going to end well for the UK and its citizens, especially the younger one who will be stuck with this for the rest of their lives.

Stop Brexit and stay in the EU is the only way out of this mess.

It is too late...

 

A U-turn now will leave the UK in a worse position than no deal.

 

If we were to to remain they the other EU members will gang up against the UK worse than they do on Euro Vision.

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 hours ago, Rally123 said:

It's available online.

Seems like you don’t understand the difference between 1 month and 14 days. Anyway, as I said: report back here after you did it. 

[beautifulthailand99]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:48 AM, damascase said:

By far the most uninformed ‘assurance’ I have come across here. Have you any idea of how decisions are being taken in Brussels? Let me help you: by the democratically elected governments of the EU Member States. Of course telling that to the British people wouldn’t help the Brexiteers, so any decision taken in Brussels by the Cabinet Ministers that meets opposition at home, is then referred to as being a ‘dictate’ frome the ‘unelected EU burocracy’. British people have been lied to and  have been misled - and now the EU is being blamed for not accepting the UK proposals. Well, the UK wants to leave the club. Fine, OK,  pay your outstanding contribution and you are free to go. Oh wait, you want to leave the club, not pay your fees anymore, not wear the club’s colours, not rotate in jobs to keep the club going, but you DO want to keep playing? And you want the club to compromise on your proposal?

Brexit - one of the biggest mistakes ever, I’m afraid.

well said that man - just sitting back and enjoying the car crash now as I'm fed up with boneheads with their empty promises and ignorant hopes of a new Jerusalem. Might as well get what little cheer there is in the greatest act of self harm a developed country has done to itself since the war. Our competitors can't believe their luck . Time for Wat Tyler to tell his peasants back to Kent and execute the leaders to encourage the others.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 2:20 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

Your statement was:

 

“The UK have voted against EU legislation on 70+ occasions, and the legislation has been passed.”

 

Produce a reference to your claim that on the occasions the U.K. voted against EU legislation it was passed.

 

Either put up links to backup the catagorical statement you made or be known as someone who makes stuff up and presents it to others as ‘truth’.

 

You could of course get out of that by admitting you have nothing to backup your claim.

 

Your reputation on TVF,  your choice.

I'm not going to put up a link for you.  We've already established it's a true fact, but that it's unclear about what constituted a 'vote against'. Take a look at the subsequent comments.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:45 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

1945 was the start of Britain being stripped of its empire, the continuation of rationing, the first istallments on a war debt that would take decades to clear and the commencement of a decline in Britain’s fortunes that did not turnaround untill after the U.K. joined the European Common Market.

Do you mean the debt that Britain got into in order to save Europe from the Nazis? The debt which took Britain 60 years to pay off?

And let's not forget the £billions of German debt and reparations from WWII that the UK agreed to write off.

 

Funny how easily you forget these things...

[dick dasterdly]

On 9/21/2018 at 2:48 PM, OneMoreFarang said:

It's amazing that some people still pretend this can end somehow positive for the UK.

The EU is not perfect, but staying in the EU is still by far the best deal they will ever get. It's obvious for anybody who pays attention and uses a brain.

I'm sure we all appreciate your opinion (stated as fact...), that also insults everyone with a different opinion....????

 

When it comes to "uses a brain" - it's very clear that this applies to remainers as much (if not more) than leavers....  Although to be fair, I think most remainers have little idea as to 'life in the low-paid lane'.....- which (IMO) is largely responsible for the leave result.

[OneMoreFarang]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm sure we all appreciate your opinion (stated as fact...), that also insults everyone with a different opinion....????

 

When it comes to "uses a brain" - it's very clear that this applies to remainers as much (if not more) than leavers....  Although to be fair, I think most remainers have little idea as to 'life in the low-paid lane'.....- which (IMO) is largely responsible for the leave result.

As far as I see the biggest problem is that few politicians told or tell the truth.

Almost all tell fairytales. And tabloids repeat these fairytales or make them even better/worse.

How many people look in detail at the available facts?

How many compare what they hope will happen to what is likely to happen under different scenarios?

I understand that many people are unhappy with their current situation. And many blame the EU because the UK politicians blame the EU for almost anything. The only problem is that in reality only some problems happen because of the EU. Lots of other problems happen because of the incompetent UK government.

What will happen if the UK is not in the EU anymore? Who will they blame then?

[mfd101]

30 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

As far as I see the biggest problem is that few politicians told or tell the truth.

Almost all tell fairytales. And tabloids repeat these fairytales or make them even better/worse.

How many people look in detail at the available facts?

How many compare what they hope will happen to what is likely to happen under different scenarios?

I understand that many people are unhappy with their current situation. And many blame the EU because the UK politicians blame the EU for almost anything. The only problem is that in reality only some problems happen because of the EU. Lots of other problems happen because of the incompetent UK government.

What will happen if the UK is not in the EU anymore? Who will they blame then?

Yes, and of course the Brits - like most of the people on this website - live or did live in a democracy, and they get to vote for the politicians of their choice. Why do the pollies tell lies & fairytales? Because that's what the people want and they reward the liers & fairytale tellers by voting for them. People want simplicity: they can't cope with complexity, maybes and possibilities and multiple options.

 

Conclusion: When you live in the kind of free, open & wealthy societies in which most of us have passed most of our lives, it is YOU/WE who bear responsibility for the outcomes of OUR votes. Before we blame the pollies, we should really take a hard look in the mirror.

Edited September 24, 2018 by mfd101

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Yes, and of course the Brits - like most of the people on this website - live or did live in a democracy, and they get to vote for the politicians of their choice. Why do the pollies tell lies & fairytales? Because that's what the people want and they reward the liers & fairytale tellers by voting for them. People want simplicity: they can't cope with complexity, maybes and possibilities and multiple options.

 

Conclusion: When you live in the kind of free, open & wealthy societies in which most of us have passed most of our lives, it is YOU/WE who bear responsibility for the outcomes of OUR votes. Before we blame the pollies, we should really take a hard look in the mirror.

Freedom comes with responsibility. 

 

This is what is happening now. May went to EU to bring her message, which wasn't done in the responsible manner. Now she has to bear the consequences of her actions. She actually seemed shocked by the response. It's easy to spread lies to your own people, surrounded by yes-yes folks, but when met with the other party, it's not as easy to  convince them and eventually the truth comes out.

 

Responsibility of one's actions. 

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

21 hours ago, mfd101 said:

Yes, and of course the Brits - like most of the people on this website - live or did live in a democracy, and they get to vote for the politicians of their choice. Why do the pollies tell lies & fairytales? Because that's what the people want and they reward the liers & fairytale tellers by voting for them. People want simplicity: they can't cope with complexity, maybes and possibilities and multiple options.

 

Conclusion: When you live in the kind of free, open & wealthy societies in which most of us have passed most of our lives, it is YOU/WE who bear responsibility for the outcomes of OUR votes. Before we blame the pollies, we should really take a hard look in the mirror.

Good points but what I can and do blame is Eton toff David Cameron winging his way as PM - first threatening the Union with the Scottish referendum and then for what he gauged was short term electoral advantage over UKIP giving us 'The Worst Referendum in British History' . That in turns brought out the spivs, has beens , chanchers (Boris, Farage et al and let's not forgot the Russian troll factories pumping out their lies and propaganda and setting the crooked agenda.  Rees-Mogg was late to the party but he has some big bets on the and money to make in the disaster so I don't blame him from exploiting and profiting from ensuing chaos and pretending to be the champion of the working class. To the working class low paid left-behinds who thought this would improve their lot - I'm afraid the opposite is the case they and their children  will be the worse affected as broken Brexit Britain slips down the league table of the Asian Century whilst they wistfully watch re-runs of the Great Escape and the 1966 World Cup Final and wonder why we still can't build Spitfires any more. 

[Scott]

Offensive post and reply removed.  

[simple1]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:10 PM, dick dasterdly said:

I'm sure we all appreciate your opinion (stated as fact...), that also insults everyone with a different opinion....????

 

When it comes to "uses a brain" - it's very clear that this applies to remainers as much (if not more) than leavers....  Although to be fair, I think most remainers have little idea as to 'life in the low-paid lane'.....- which (IMO) is largely responsible for the leave result.

Exactly how will exiting the EU assist those whose 'life in the low-paid lane'?

[The manic]

On 9/21/2018 at 5:42 AM, Phuket Man said:

Regardless of the non binding opinion poll of two years ago this nonsense needs to stop now before it is too late.

It's very clear that this is not going to end well for the UK and its citizens, especially the younger one who will be stuck with this for the rest of their lives.

Stop Brexit and stay in the EU is the only way out of this mess.

It was generations of Brits who were saddled with the EU voted against it. 

[bomber]

11 hours ago, The manic said:

It was generations of Brits who were saddled with the EU voted against it. 

ive lived in the UK all my life and can honestly say not 1 thing has effected my life or earnings or human rights whist the UK was in the EU,luckily leaving the EU wont effect my work/income either other than the pound being worth 15-20% less when i travel,iam pretty lucky millions wont be

[bomber]

On 9/26/2018 at 1:24 AM, The manic said:

It was generations of Brits who were saddled with the EU voted against it. 

we hear this term saddled a lot,what exactly does it mean?  iam 50 YO and lived all of those years in the UK,the EU has never effected my way quality of life/earnings/human rights or anything else,someone please explain

[Spidey]

9 minutes ago, bomber said:

we hear this term saddled a lot,what exactly does it mean?  iam 50 YO and lived all of those years in the UK,the EU has never effected my way quality of life/earnings/human rights or anything else,someone please explain

 

I am a fair bit older than you and spent all of those years in the workplace. One thing that the EU did for me was to make my workplace a much safer place. Some of my work colleagues wouldn't be alive today if it weren't for the EU.

[bristolboy]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:07 PM, CG1 Blue said:

Do you mean the debt that Britain got into in order to save Europe from the Nazis? The debt which took Britain 60 years to pay off?

And let's not forget the £billions of German debt and reparations from WWII that the UK agreed to write off.

 

Funny how easily you forget these things...

To be fair, Truman had it in for the UK and refused to forgive its war debts to the USA. A truly shameful and shocking act. Apparently Truman had some kind of grudge against the UK dating from his service in WW1.