With green jobs, UK's Labour pursues "radical" plan for power

[ivor bigun]

 

True but the result was never mandatory on the government. The referendum was advisory.

 

There are times when the government must go against public opinion and do what's best for the country. It's what we pay them for.

No ,we pay them to do the will of the people,if they dont,we get rid of them,the will of the people was to leave,live with it,we are not a communist state,yet!!

 

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

No ,we pay them to do the will of the people,if they dont,we get rid of them,the will of the people was to leave,live with it,we are not a communist state,yet!!

 

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

Untrue. We pay them to govern the country judiciously. It's ridiculous to assume that the government hold a referendum before they make a decision.

 

Did Margaret Thatcher hold a referendum before she took us to war with Argentina?

 

Did May hold a referendum before she announced the corporate tax breaks?

Edited September 27, 2018 by Spidey

[My Thai Life]

14 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Quite so, I don't think Labour should be confused with the loony left of old.

I can't agree sorry. Momentum is to a large extent an entryist Trotskyist group, just as the Militant Tendency was, and they will be just as damaging to Labour. Calls for a General Strike yesterday? It's farcical.

 

This morning I went through The Guardian's and The Telegraph's review of Corbyn's conference speech - they are equally derisory. I remember Corbyn from Islington in the late 70's. He was an interesting example of a Student's Union kind of politico who somehow became an MP, and he hasn't matured at all since then. His specialism has been to rebel against his own party. Fortunately he is continuing in that direction by blocking Momentum, but he remains a very weak leader. He doesn't have sufficient appeal for the general population.

 

Labour's 6 point test for the Brexit agreement above is an SU parody, and his speech was long on uncosted populist promises; most of his closest colleagues are even worse.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, Spidey said:

 

Untrue. We pay them to govern the country judiciously. It's ridiculous to assume that the government hold a referendum before they make a decision.

 

Did Margaret Thatcher hold a referendum before she took us to war with Argentina?

 

Did May hold a referendum before she announced the corporate tax breaks?

Did Cameron hold a referendum on leaving the EU, yes. Did he say we will act on what you decide, yes.

 

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, vogie said:

Did Cameron hold a referendum on leaving the EU, yes. Did he say we will act on what you decide, yes.

 

Did he think for one minute that leave would win the day? No.

 

Did he resign as soon as the result was known? Yes.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Did he think for one minute that leave would win the day? No.

 

Did he resign as soon as the result was known? Yes.

Are you in telepathic communication with Cameron, no. ????

[Spidey]

Just now, vogie said:

Are you in telepathic communication with Cameron, no. ????

 

How do you know I'm not Dave? ????

[My Thai Life]

Brexit referendum refresher:

 

It was in the Tory 2015 election manifesto on which they were elected.

The referendum was accompanied by the Government's written promise to enact the result.

The result was endorsed by both parties' 2017 election manifestos.

 

Now please give over with schoolboy vanilla constitutional "theory".

[Spidey]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

Brexit referendum refresher:

 

It was in the Tory 2015 election manifesto on which they were elected.

The referendum was accompanied by the Government's written promise to enact the result.

The result was endorsed by both parties' 2017 election manifestos.

 

Now please give over with schoolboy vanilla constitutional "theory".

 

It was in the 2015 Tory election manifesto because they needed to stop the drain of votes to Farage.

 

Labour endorsed it because Corbyn is a Brexiteer.

 

Not constitutional theory, constitutional facts. Sorry that they don't' fit in with your theory.

[My Thai Life]

19 minutes ago, Spidey said:

t was in the 2015 Tory election manifesto because they needed to stop the drain of votes to Farage.

 

Labour endorsed it because Corbyn is a Brexiteer.

 

Not constitutional theory, constitutional facts. Sorry that they don't' fit in with your theory.

It doesn't make any difference why it was in the manifestos. The fact is it has been endorsed 3 times, and neither of the party leaders supports a re-run. It's too late for a re-run anyway.

 

I haven't offered a theory. But "your" theory is just one of many, which are all easily googleable.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

It doesn't make any difference why it was in the manifestos. The fact is it has been endorsed 3 times, and neither of the party leaders supports a re-run. It's too late for a re-run anyway.

 

I haven't offered a theory. But "your" theory is just one of many, which are all easily googleable.

 

Doesn't need a re-run. The government can just call the whole thing off, which was my original premise.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, Spidey said:

 

Doesn't need a re-run. The government can just call the whole thing off, which was my original premise.

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

 

True but the result was never mandatory on the government. The referendum was advisory.

 

There are times when the government must go against public opinion and do what's best for the country. It's what we pay them for.

 

That's a very interesting point: everything fails once in a while- even democracy.

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

I can't agree sorry. Momentum is to a large extent an entryist Trotskyist group, just as the Militant Tendency was, and they will be just as damaging to Labour. Calls for a General Strike yesterday? It's farcical.

 

This morning I went through The Guardian's and The Telegraph's review of Corbyn's conference speech - they are equally derisory. I remember Corbyn from Islington in the late 70's. He was an interesting example of a Student's Union kind of politico who somehow became an MP, and he hasn't matured at all since then. His specialism has been to rebel against his own party. Fortunately he is continuing in that direction by blocking Momentum, but he remains a very weak leader. He doesn't have sufficient appeal for the general population.

 

Labour's 6 point test for the Brexit agreement above is an SU parody, and his speech was long on uncosted populist promises; most of his closest colleagues are even worse.

 

I suppose the problem all of us have in making a political appraisal is that our judgement is inevitably compromised by our own political beliefs: it can't be cogent. The only thing I can really take from your excellently written posting is that you are not a socialist.

[My Thai Life]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

I suppose the problem all of us have in making a political appraisal is that our judgement is inevitably compromised by our own political beliefs: it can't be cogent. The only thing I can really take from your excellently written posting is that you are not a socialist.

I was replying to your point that Momentum labour isn't the same as the "loony left" of old. My point is that Momentum and Militant are considered by many commentators to be the same school - entryist Trotskyist at heart, which I wouldn't describe as British socialism. Tom Watson seems to agree. 

 

"Labour's deputy leader Tom Watson has said "Trotsky entryists" are "twisting arms" of young Labour members to back Jeremy Corbyn - what does he mean?"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37025649

 

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Student loans. ????????????????

 

Being aware of his "policy proposals" and agreeing with them are two different things, I don't trust the dynamic three as far as I can throw them. Only somebody extremely left wing would agree with them. Most people don't want a Marxist goverment, I know by reading your posts that you think he is the new Messiah, but  those of us with a more moderate dispossition think otherwise.

What?

 

You don’t know what his policy proposal are but you don’t agree with him.

 

A stunning example of a closed mind.

[mommysboy]

I wonder how many of the electorate are like me: yes I wouldn't mind leaving the EU but believe it is impracticable and certainly not appropriate at this time.  I think the PM was just one such person-once.  And if a fairy godmother did visit Parliament one day and offered to make the problem go away it would likely be passed with a very big majority.

Edited September 27, 2018 by mommysboy

[Chomper Higgot]

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

The six tests being:

1 Does it ensure a strong and collaborative future relationship with the EU? 

2 Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the single market and customs union? 

3 Does it ensure the fair management of migration in the interests of the economy and communities? 

4 Does it defend rights and protections and prevent a race to the bottom? 

5 Does it protect national security and our capacity to tackle cross-border crime? 

6 Does it deliver for all regions and nations of the UK? 

 

1,3,4,5,6,7 are too vague to be applied.

And 2 is so bizarre it's hard to believe any serious politician could include it.

“And 2 is so bizarre it's hard to believe any serious politician could include it.”

 

I don’t recall you finding fault with Brexiteer claims that the UK would acheive a great deal with the EU and better deals around the world.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[My Thai Life]

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I wonder how many of the electorate are like me: yes I wouldn't mind leaving the EU but believe it is impracticable and certainly not appropriate at this time.

I might have agreed with you a while back. But the project for "ever closer union" has been pushed heavily over the last year or two, by Macron and a few others. There will never be a better time.

[vogie]

14 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What?

 

You don’t know what his policy proposal are but you don’t agree with him.

 

A stunning example of a closed mind.

Where do I say I don't know his policies, you are putting words in peoples mouths again.

 

Mixing with the likes of Abbot and McDonnall is enough to taint anybodys opinion of cuddly Corbyn.

 

Heres some food for thought about the lovable Corbyn.

 

"Jeremy Corbyn has been paid £20,000 to appear five times on the totalitarian Iranian regime’s propaganda channel, which was banned in the UK for its role in filming the tortured forced-confession of Iranian liberal journalistMaziar Bahari. By hosting interviews, Corbyn gives the propaganda the ‘credibility’ of a Western politician. It’s fascinating to hear Iranian democracy campaigner Maziar Bahari’s own thoughts on Corbyn, who he describes as ‘a useful idiot’, and goes on to say:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/shouldnt-vote-jeremy-corbyn/

 

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Where do I say I don't know his policies, you are putting words in peoples mouths again.

 

Mixing with the likes of Abbot and McDonnall is enough to taint anybodys opinion of cuddly Corbyn.

 

Heres some food for thought about the lovable Corbyn.

 

"Jeremy Corbyn has been  paid £20,000 to appear five times on the totalitarian Iranian regime’s propaganda channel, which was banned in the UK for its role in filming the tortured forced-confession of Iranian liberal journalistMaziar Bahari. By hosting interviews, Corbyn gives the propaganda the ‘credibility’ of a Western politician. It’s fascinating to hear Iranian democracy campaigner Maziar Bahari’s own thoughts on Corbyn, who he  describes as ‘a useful idiot’, and goes on to say:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/shouldnt-vote-jeremy-corbyn/

 

 

 

 

What because nobody should do any business or have any contact with Iran?

 

Rather topical.

[vogie]

27 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

What because nobody should do any business or have any contact with Iran?

 

Rather topical.

Have you read it all. No matter what anybody says to you about Corbyn, you will defend him to the hilt. I do not see what you see in him, nor do most people, he is a liability to the Labour party.

 

[mommysboy]

42 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I might have agreed with you a while back. But the project for "ever closer union" has been pushed heavily over the last year or two, by Macron and a few others. There will never be a better time.

 

I suppose it's just my way but I always prefer a bit of stealth. It seems sensible to sign up to EFTA and then negotiate a comprehensive trade deal to be enacted in a few years' time. It seems to square the circle. 

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I suppose it's just my way but I always prefer a bit of stealth. It seems sensible to sign up to EFTA and then negotiate a comprehensive trade deal to be enacted in a few years' time. It seems to square the circle. 

???? sounds like stealth in broad daylight in the searchlights to me ????

 

imho for Brexit to be successful we need to be free to make free trade deals. Anything less and we may as well stay in (which isn't a realistic option).

[My Thai Life]

One of The Guardian commentators compared Corbyn's speech to Trump's populism. The speech was full of uncosted populist promises, just like the bad old days of Labour. 

 

"Trumpian promises of straightforward solutions to complex problems"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/26/jeremy-corbyn-labour-conference-speech-verdict-panel-liverpool

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

???? sounds like stealth in broad daylight in the searchlights to me ????

 

imho for Brexit to be successful we need to be free to make free trade deals. Anything less and we may as well stay in (which isn't a realistic option).

 

Point taken.  Bit like a pantomime villain exiting the stage.

 

 

 

 

[My Thai Life]

5 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Point taken.  Bit like a pantomime villain exiting the stage.

555

You asked me a while back if I was a socialist. I have never been able to align myself with the UK's binary politics, ever. The only time I engaged in political action was to distribute Labour leaflets during the Winter of Discontent 1979 London, because a friend was unable to do her allotted duty. And we all know what happened - I have blamed myself ever since!

 

It was interesting, wasn't it? During the Thatcher years no-one admitted to voting against her. Post-Thatcher, very few admitted to voting for her. She succeeded in removing the word "socialism" from British parlance for a decade or two. Now it's back, but it's not the kind of socialism I want - too binary - again!

 

And this is one of the many reasons why I admire Germany - they transcended binary politics for a long time - and look at the benefits. By the way, my 2nd citizenship (I have 2 European citizenships) is not German.

[bert bloggs]

14 hours ago, vogie said:

Have you read it all. No matter what anybody says to you about Corbyn, you will defend him to the hilt. I do not see what you see in him, nor do most people, he is a liability to the Labour party.

 

Don't worry ,in most posts Chomper is nearly always"confused" so maybe its Corbyn that confuses him .

[My Thai Life]

"Jeremy Corbyn has sparked fresh fears in Brussels of a no-deal Brexit after saying during talks with senior EU Brexit officials that he will vote down anything that fails to deliver the same benefits as membership of the single market and customs union."

 

So Corbyn wants Brexit to have exactly the same benefits as EU membership or he'll vote any deal down. This man has got to be the most unfit leader of a British political party in our lifetimes. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/27/i-will-work-to-avoid-national-disaster-of-no-deal-brexit-corbyn-tells-eu

 

 

[Morch]

14 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

One of The Guardian commentators compared Corbyn's speech to Trump's populism. The speech was full of uncosted populist promises, just like the bad old days of Labour. 

 

"Trumpian promises of straightforward solutions to complex problems"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/26/jeremy-corbyn-labour-conference-speech-verdict-panel-liverpool

 

 

And here's another Trumpian notion....

 

 

On 9/27/2018 at 9:00 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

The UK newspapers with the widest readership are all doing their best to poison public opinion on Corbyn.

 

A "witch-hunt", is seems.