Applied for Thai citizenship but issues with Renunciation letter

[danielcondo]

Hi All,

 

I’ve been living in Thailand for the past 16 years and am married to a Thai women and have a son who is Thai/Canadian.

 

i applied for Thai nationality last year and the file is already at the interior ministry and I’m awaiting the interview. 

 

However today I received a call from one of my contacts in the ministry saying that my Renunciation letter is not clear enough and I need to state that I will give up my Canadian nationality , now in regards to that I am a naturalized Canadian citizen and spent my childhood there, I went by the embassy last year when I was applying for my Thai citizenship as I needed to get a signed and stamped affidavit from them in which I stated I would give up my nationality, I wrote that the Canadians have no objection to me getting Thai nationality or giving up my Canadian nationality if necessary.

 

the Police HQ etc had no issues with the letter at the time and I passed all my initial interviews but now they’re saying I have to clearly state I will give it up and can not write “if necessary” or vague words.

 

now Canada allows dual nationality whereas Thailand says that you shouldn’t have it , they don’t even clearly say that you can not and everyone I talk to say it’s a grey area , however I am afraid of writing a affidavit at the Canadian embassy stating I will renounce my Canadian citiZenship upon receiving Thai citizenship as it might create complications for me if I want to keep both as most people do and also because I’m a naturalized Canadian rather than born Canadian.

 

any advise from someone who has been in a similar situation ? 

 

Thanks

Dan

[glegolo]

This is maybe a stupid question. But for me I feel like I must ask you! What is really the benefits of being a thai citizen.. I can understand that it is much easier to not have to worry about extensions and VISA and so forth..

 

But to even consider terminate a western citizenship in order to gain a citizenship from a underdeveloped asian country I do not understand it really... How are you thinking in all this really?

 

Hope I didn´t step on your toes by asking this...

 

glegolo

[Dreckenfousnoll]

if i could get thai citizien, il do it right away i hate my own country

[danielcondo]

Glegolo,

 

to be frank thai citizenship is only useful to someone who lives in Thailand on a permanent basis, the benifits are endless including being able to own land, open businesses, obtain permits, not having to worry about Visas and work permits and so on, they are ways around some of those points being a foreigner as well but obviously being Thai and avoiding all that is preferable as people can run into problems with loop holes.  Also Thailand is not a third world country it’s considered semi developed and if you compare it to other countries in the region or in Asia or Africa it literally looks like comparing USA to afghanistan. 

 

Hopefully someone with actual information on the matter will offer some advise soon

[TSF]

I know a couple of farang who have Thai citizenship. They no longer have to get visas and re-entry permits, they no longer need to apply for a work permit (but it's debatable how many employment opportunities are open to them), they can own property in their own name, and because they have a Thai ID card they don't have to pay the farang price to enter certain parks & temples & shows....but that's about it.

 

I once said to one of my farang friends who has Thai citizenship, "so you can vote in elections, you can join a political party and run for office, you can join the Thai military?" His reply, "No, I'm not that much of a citizen." He also added that Thais still overcharge him, still laugh at him as he walks down the street, still call out "Hey you farang...5555555."

 

So give up your citizenship in your home country just to save a few thousand baht on visa fees and national park entrances???

 

 

[TSF]

3 minutes ago, Dreckenfousnoll said:

if i could get thai citizien, il do it right away i hate my own country

You sound fresh. If you're not so old come back and say that again in 20 years.

[glegolo]

6 minutes ago, danielcondo said:

Glegolo,

 

to be frank thai citizenship is only useful to someone who lives in Thailand on a permanent basis, the benifits are endless including being able to own land, open businesses, obtain permits, not having to worry about Visas and work permits and so on, they are ways around some of those points being a foreigner as well but obviously being Thai and avoiding all that is preferable as people can run into problems with loop holes.  Also Thailand is not a third world country it’s considered semi developed and if you compare it to other countries in the region or in Asia or Africa it literally looks like comparing USA to afghanistan. 

 

Hopefully someone with actual information on the matter will offer some advise soon

Full respect for your thoughts, just interested how one thinking in that situation. For me living here since 10 year, never in my lifetime I will leave my home-country. It would make me completely mentally without a home.... Thailand can never for ME be nothing more than a cheap surrogate having in mind the extrem racism here and all that shit falang contra thai... No matter what citizenship we hold, it is just a "paper-tiger" nothing more, we will continue to be falang and be called falang.

 

I wish you good luck and I sincerely hope you will be happy my friend.

 

glegolo

Edited September 27, 2018 by glegolo

[danielcondo]

Appreciate all the answers but please answer if you have any relevant information, I’ve been in a thailand long enough to know everything there is too know and am applying for citizenship based on all those facts, I know there’s a lot of Farangs who have dual nationality , could one of you kindly let me know how you dealt with the Renunciation part , also in case I haven’t made myself clear I plan on keeping both my canadian and Thai citizenship’s , the question is based on how people who have gotten Thai citizenship before and have kept their other nationality have managed to do so especially when they had to get the affidavit written at their respective embassies.

Edited September 27, 2018 by danielcondo

[KiChakayan]

30 minutes ago, glegolo said:

Full respect for your thoughts, just interested how one thinking in that situation. For me living here since 10 year, never in my lifetime I will leave my home-country. It would make me completely mentally without a home.... Thailand can never for ME be nothing more than a cheap surrogate having in mind the extrem racism here and all that shit falang contra thai... No matter what citizenship we hold, it is just a "paper-tiger" nothing more, we will continue to be falang and be called falang.

 

I wish you good luck and I sincerely hope you will be happy my friend.

 

glegolo

Been living here 4 years, as time goes by I come to realise how lucky I was to be born European, and how amazingly privileged I am to be Australian. 

[Maestro]

Perhaps your renunciation declaration did no include the essential word "intend", as for example in "...hereby declare my intention to renounce my Canadian nationality following my naturalisation as a Thai national...", or something like that.

[BestB]

From my limited knowledge, you have to make it official with Canadian embassy that you plan on giving up your citizenship. and get a paper of acknowledgement,  This does not mean you have given up, it just means that you made it official that you would be.

 

Once you receive Thai citizenship, you can withdraw your intention with Canadian embassy

 

Logically, you can not renounce Canadian prior to receiving Thai, so its just a technicality to follow.

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, danielcondo said:

now in regards to that I am a naturalized Canadian citizen and spent my childhood there, I 

Are you already a dual citizen of Canada and your country of birth?

[yankee99]

11 hours ago, TSF said:

I know a couple of farang who have Thai citizenship. They no longer have to get visas and re-entry permits, they no longer need to apply for a work permit (but it's debatable how many employment opportunities are open to them), they can own property in their own name, and because they have a Thai ID card they don't have to pay the farang price to enter certain parks & temples & shows....but that's about it.

 

I once said to one of my farang friends who has Thai citizenship, "so you can vote in elections, you can join a political party and run for office, you can join the Thai military?" His reply, "No, I'm not that much of a citizen." He also added that Thais still overcharge him, still laugh at him as he walks down the street, still call out "Hey you farang...5555555."

 

So give up your citizenship in your home country just to save a few thousand baht on visa fees and national park entrances???

 

 

cant speak about being a politician but after a waiting period your friend can vote and he should know this. 

[samran]

The thing to remember is it is just a letter. Ask them for whatever wording they recommend and then go with it. 

 

From the Canadian side they shouldn’t care. Canada, like most western countries, have specific forms, processes and yes, fees, to be paid before a renunciation can be undertaken.

 

A letter signed in Thailand will have no bearing on your Canadian citizenship. All the best. 

[BKKBike09]

I can't speak for Canada but the British position is clear: Immigration & Nationality Act allows for dual citizenship and even states that, in the event you are required to renounce your British citizenship in order to acquire a second nationality, you are subsequently able - one time only - to get it back. The wrinkle in your case may be that you are naturalised Canadian, not Canadian by birth. 

 

As Samran says - it's a piece of paper. Ask them for an example of an acceptable letter. I would be very confident the Canadian government will not hold you to it. The only problem could come in the future if the Thai government starts asking for proof that you have given up your original citizenship. However obviously you couldn't give it up, even if you wanted to, before getting the Thai one.

 

For folk who say "what's the point, you won't be a real Thai, what benefit do you really get" I would respond: if you are retired and happily living on a retirement visa, maybe benefits are fewer. Assuming you have no problem with the bank deposit requirement and have the minimum income. However if like me you have a family here, work, and will need to keep on working for many years, then it has many benefits. If you invest significantly in your own business, wouldn't you prefer to be the legal owner?

[samran]

59 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

I can't speak for Canada but the British position is clear: Immigration & Nationality Act allows for dual citizenship and even states that, in the event you are required to renounce your British citizenship in order to acquire a second nationality, you are subsequently able - one time only - to get it back. The wrinkle in your case may be that you are naturalised Canadian, not Canadian by birth. 

 

As Samran says - it's a piece of paper. Ask them for an example of an acceptable letter. I would be very confident the Canadian government will not hold you to it. The only problem could come in the future if the Thai government starts asking for proof that you have given up your original citizenship. However obviously you couldn't give it up, even if you wanted to, before getting the Thai one.

 

For folk who say "what's the point, you won't be a real Thai, what benefit do you really get" I would respond: if you are retired and happily living on a retirement visa, maybe benefits are fewer. Assuming you have no problem with the bank deposit requirement and have the minimum income. However if like me you have a family here, work, and will need to keep on working for many years, then it has many benefits. If you invest significantly in your own business, wouldn't you prefer to be the legal owner?

Indeed, too many people need to stick their two cents in when it isn’t asked for. 

 

Back to the topic at hand, just checked out Canada’s formal renunciation process. Needless to say it is very specific in its requirementsand process. A letter to the Thai authorities - whatever the wording - on this means nothing.

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-0302-application-renounce-canadian-citizenship-subsection-9-1.html

[GinBoy2]

14 hours ago, glegolo said:

This is maybe a stupid question. But for me I feel like I must ask you! What is really the benefits of being a thai citizen.. I can understand that it is much easier to not have to worry about extensions and VISA and so forth..

 

But to even consider terminate a western citizenship in order to gain a citizenship from a underdeveloped asian country I do not understand it really... How are you thinking in all this really?

 

Hope I didn´t step on your toes by asking this...

 

glegolo

I’m always baffled by this.

 

Whatever the issues you have to go through to stay in Thailand, pale in insignificance if at some point you need to escape.

 

As anyone who’s gone through the flaming hoops to get their spouse a visa to go to ‘farangland’ knows its tough for anyone with a Thai passport

 

And you want to renounce your right to live somewhere in the West!

 

Madness

[ubonjoe]

16 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

And you want to renounce your right to live somewhere in the West!

There is no requirement to renounce your citizenship. You just have to do a statement you intend to do it when applying.

That is a person's choice unless they are from a country that does not allow dual nationalities.

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post has been removed.

[seancbk]

15 hours ago, TSF said:

You sound fresh. If you're not so old come back and say that again in 20 years.

 

What has age got to do with it?   Actually getting Thai citizenship at an earlier age would be vastly preferable to getting it when you are elderly.

[Neeranam]

36 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

What has age got to do with it?   Actually getting Thai citizenship at an earlier age would be vastly preferable to getting it when you are elderly.

You get more points if you're over 40 ????

Actually, one of the readings I've applied is so I don't have to worry about visa when I retire. I won't get much of a pension(on paper), and the trip to immigration would be tough when 95.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Neeranam

[Srinivas]

16 hours ago, danielcondo said:

Appreciate all the answers but please answer if you have any relevant information, I’ve been in a thailand long enough to know everything there is too know and am applying for citizenship based on all those facts, I know there’s a lot of Farangs who have dual nationality , could one of you kindly let me know how you dealt with the Renunciation part , also in case I haven’t made myself clear I plan on keeping both my canadian and Thai citizenship’s , the question is based on how people who have gotten Thai citizenship before and have kept their other nationality have managed to do so especially when they had to get the affidavit written at their respective embassies.

Look into the Canadian renunciation process. Im sure it has more steps than just wording on this letter.

You can write the letter as needed without completing the Canadian process.

However this letter can be used against you in thai courts if you do not follow through should a situation present itself regarding ownership of assets. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Srinivas
extra comment

[connda]

There is an American here in Northern Thailand attempting to do the same thing. 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1057758-us-funny-man-to-give-up-his-american-citizenship-desperate-to-become-a-thai/

[samran]

2 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I’m always baffled by this.

 

 

Easily solved by reading.

 

Formal renunciation isn’t what he asked for during the process.

 

Only a somewhat micky mouse letter to the authorities that you ‘intend’ to renounce. 

 

Upon getting Thai citizenship, the authorities notify your embassy, and if they don’t allow dual citizenship (Singapore, Malaysia, Austria amongst others), then they continue with the formal steps to complete the renunciation process. 

 

For others who have no issue with dual citizenship (most of the rest of the world), the embassy take a look at the letter and says ‘that’s nice’ and screw it up and throw it in the bin. 

 

Hope ive helped solve your ongoing bafflement issues. 

[samran]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

There is an American here in Northern Thailand attempting to do the same thing. 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1057758-us-funny-man-to-give-up-his-american-citizenship-desperate-to-become-a-thai/

 

Suspect he’s telling halve truths here. Most countries won’t let you renounce if it means you become stateless. He isn’t officially Thai yet. 

 

What at most likely has happened is he went to the consulate to have a chat. Ta-da... he’s started the process. 

 

His million followers will go for it hook line and sinker. 

[abrahamzvi]

If the Canadian citizenship means something to you in addition to a passport, I wouldn't sign the required affidavit, as as a naturalized citizen you will lose your citizenship in all probability. If however, it does not matter to you if you do lose it, go ahead.

[laochef]

OP states that he can own land.., to my knowledge this was changed quite some years ago - even with a Thai citizenship, a "former farang" can still not own land, as his parents where/are not Thai... Everything else is the same as a "real" Thai...

 

[samran]

10 minutes ago, laochef said:

OP states that he can own land.., to my knowledge this was changed quite some years ago - even with a Thai citizenship, a "former farang" can still not own land, as his parents where/are not Thai... Everything else is the same as a "real" Thai...

 

 

Simply not true. Stop polluting the inter web with falsehoods. 

[Scottjouro]

4 hours ago, laochef said:

OP states that he can own land.., to my knowledge this was changed quite some years ago - even with a Thai citizenship, a "former farang" can still not own land, as his parents where/are not Thai... Everything else is the same as a "real" Thai...

 

Completely not true...there are not levels of citizenship...if one is a citizen you are a citizen and afforded the same rights as every other citizen of a country... you spreading lies, and falsehoods 

Edited September 28, 2018 by Scottjouro

[the guest]

It doesn't matter if you have Thai citizenship, the Thais will always perceive you (and in most cases) as a Farang as if you got off the plane only yesterday.

 

So I'm wondering what value does a Thai passport have? What happens if you need a quick emergency treatment that wasn't available in the Country, and the only treatment was outside of Thailand, apply for a visa ?

 

What happens if fo some reason the authorities decided to revoke your citizenship, and you then become stateless?

 

I would seriously think about ditching your Canadian citizenship, the passport is a lot more powerful than a Thai one.