UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[cleverman]

I recon the only people who have grounds for appeal are the ones who get their income from a Govt Dept. BE would be on shaky ground it they declared that it may be false info. Get another appeal going. 

[Thaidream]

There is no methodology that is 100% foolproof.  However- the majority of people who ask for letters are not lying . If they are and are caught- they become subject to Thai Law.  Most of us carry 'proof' in addition to the Letter.  Proof consists  pension letters; company letters show income or other plus  a bank statement showing  the same amounts that are on the pension letters. In addition- many of us have debit cards as proof we get the money out at Thai ATMs and as final proof- we can save our slips from the Thai ATM.  A minority of people might show phony docs but I seriously doubt they  can produce phony debit cards and  phony slips from a Thai ATM.

 

The actual reason BE stopped doing the letters is a mystery but it will eventually come out- either through Freedom of information or via Thai Imm sources.

 

The point of this thread is the way forward and how to either  convince BE they have made an error and stay their decision for further investigation and consultation or convince BE to sit down with Thai imm and come up with a workable solution . or find outsourcing methods or convince BE to start using Sworn Affidavits just  like the BE does in Hanoi; Cambodia and America.

[cleverman]

19 minutes ago, richiejom said:

Yes it mentions that other embassys have the option of an Avidavit https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

You missed my point, what other embassys do are not grounds to overturn their decision.

[Moonlover]

19 hours ago, NanLaew said:

21 hours ago, Maestro said:

Are you saying that after you gave the British embassy evidence of deposits into your bank account and nothing else, the embassy gave you a letter saying that they saw evidence of income?

 

19 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Yes. I fill in the simple, downloaded 'spreadsheet' they provide, include the 4 bank statements where my spreadsheet numbers come from and they issue the letter. It basically says 'Mr NL claims income of bla bla bla' and 'Mr NL showed statements from ABC Bank showing bla bla bla.' That's the thrust of the income letter and has been that way for as long I have been extending. Last January was my 7th successive extension. 

This is interesting and very revealing. I didn't know this method could and is, or rather was used. But it raises a curtain on a certain aspect.

 

Thai immigration have called upon the embassy to verify the fiscal information that they receive when providing the letters.

 

How could they possibly verify that the income presented in such a format was legitimate? It's just not doable is it. And the other reason that they gave was that data protection rules would prevent them from making any such enquires.

 

It's becoming clear that the embassy really was between a 'rock and a hard place' on the issue.

 

 

[Jip99]

5 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

This is interesting and very revealing. I didn't know this method could and is, or rather was used. But it raises a curtain on a certain aspect.

 

Thai immigration have called upon the embassy to verify the fiscal information that they receive when providing the letters.

 

How could they possibly verify that the income presented in such a format was legitimate? It's just not doable is it. And the other reason that they gave was that data protection rules would prevent them from making any such enquires.

 

It's becoming clear that the embassy really was between a 'rock and a hard place' on the issue.

 

 

 

 

I agree entirely with the above.

 

However, what the embassy have done - and the way they have done it - shows little regard for the British citizens who foolishly believed that the embassy was there to look after their interests. 

 

To cut off one major option for Britons to extend their permission to stay, without having negotiated some alternative with the Thai authorities, is not helpful. 

[wgdanson]

4 hours ago, Moonlover said:

I am somewhat surprised to read this. Why do you think that your pension providers only send copies? They are, undoubtedly, churned out by the thousands by computer, but I'm sure they will be the originals.

 

In common with many others here I'm sure, the only provider that does not send out an annual letter is DWP, however the IPC will provide you with a letter of confirmation on request.

 

My last one took 3 months, so allow plenty of time.

 

Many UK financial institutions demand that you send an original with a 'wet signature' for important documents, which is a pain when it take a week or so to get to UK from here. I have emailed copies in the past and told them that the original is onn its way. But, do you think those companies can tell the difference between an original signature done with a Parker fountain pen, leaving no indentation, and a laser copy....NO. And I did note that the Income Letter I got this week from the BE.....has a copy signature on it.

[wgdanson]

51 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

 

This is interesting and very revealing. I didn't know this method could and is, or rather was used. But it raises a curtain on a certain aspect.

 

Thai immigration have called upon the embassy to verify the fiscal information that they receive when providing the letters.

 

How could they possibly verify that the income presented in such a format was legitimate? It's just not doable is it. And the other reason that they gave was that data protection rules would prevent them from making any such enquires.

 

It's becoming clear that the embassy really was between a 'rock and a hard place' on the issue.

 

 

This method has been used for many years, and still will be until 1st July 2019, as no further letters, which are valid for 6 months, will be issued after 1st January. Or am I missing something?. 

[Thaidream]

32 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

It's becoming clear that the embassy really was between a 'rock and a hard place' on the issue.

 

With all due respect- they could have indicated they would continue to issue the letter and that they believed their citizens mostly were  telling the truth. They could have explained to Thai Imm that there is no 100% way for anyone, anywhere to verify every piece of income from the source. Data is protected in most every country.   Even one branch  of Government cannot see every piece another branch has.

 

Instead they could have provided a Statutory Dec-like the Aussies and Americans and have the citizen make their statement and swear an oath under penalty of perjury and mark that on the declaration. That puts the onus on the individual- if you lie- a crime has been committed. They then could have told Thai Imm how it works and of course  Thai Imm can ask for added proof. It should be noted that BE in Hanoi and Cambodia as well as other countries do have Stat Dec/Affidavits and these declarations are readily accepted as proof of a variety of things- such as tax issues; child support; pension dispersal in a lump sum etc.

 

From what I have read in all these threads- Thai Imm had a seminar and was encouraging Embassies to  'verify' information.  BE has decided to stop the letter because they can't verify info   There has been no report  of Thai Imm throwing down the gauntlet and saying they won't accept Embassy letters.  Thais do not do this- they avoid confrontation.It is BE who is stating no letter and not offering to work with its citizens and Thai Imm. for a suitable alternative.

[Maestro]

4 hours ago, Moonlover said:

In common with many others here I'm sure, the only provider that does not send out an annual letter is DWP, however the IPC will provide you with a letter of confirmation on request.

The Pension Service, part of the Department for Works and Pensions, sends me annually this form CF(N)1175 to my address in Switzerland, where I currently reside, but from your post it appears that they do not send it to recipients of a pension in Thailand:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10bAk8z6cXUzkeDoBg-C8Z9YOqZeeSGVi

[Esso49]

1 minute ago, Maestro said:

The Pension Service, part of the Department for Works and Pensions, sends me annually this form CF(N)1175 to my address in Switzerland, where I currently reside, but from your post it appears that they do not send it to recipients of a pension in Thailand.

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10bAk8z6cXUzkeDoBg-C8Z9YOqZeeSGVi

You get no pension increase if living in Thailand so there is no requirement for them to send the letter.

[Jip99]

11 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

This method has been used for many years, and still will be until 1st July 2019, as no further letters, which are valid for 6 months, will be issued after 1st January. Or am I missing something?. 

 

It will be if Thai immigration are prepared to accept them.....

[Moonlover]

2 minutes ago, Maestro said:

The Pension Service, part of the Department for Works and Pensions, sends me annually this form CF(N)1175 to my address in Switzerland, where I currently reside, but from your post it appears that they do not send it to recipients of a pension in Thailand:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=10bAk8z6cXUzkeDoBg-C8Z9YOqZeeSGVi

Quite so. Because we, in Thailand do not enjoy the benefit of an annual increment. They only issue these letters to goes who do. Please don't rub salt into our wounds. 

[Maestro]

3 minutes ago, Esso49 said:

You get no pension increase if living in Thailand so there is no requirement for them to send the letter.

I see. Thank you.

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Quite so. Because we, in Thailand do not enjoy the benefit of an annual increment. They only issue these letters to goes who do. Please don't rub salt into our wounds. 

I know someone who still has an address in UK but has never had any form or letters from DWP since he retired 6 years ago, just a bank deposit every WEEK.

Edited October 22, 2018 by wgdanson

[Maestro]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

Quite so. Because we, in Thailand do not enjoy the benefit of an annual increment. They only issue these letters to goes who do. Please don't rub salt into our wounds. 

You and your compatriots have my sympathy.

[wgdanson]

5 minutes ago, Jip99 said:

 

It will be if Thai immigration are prepared to accept them.....

Please tell me, is it the BE who will not issue the letters, or the Thai IO who will not accept them? I am confused.

[Esso49]

2 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

I know someone who still has an address in UK but has never had any form or letters from DWP since he retired 6 years ago.

And if you have a UK address you do not have to complete a "certificate of existence" form every year either.  It appears the DWP assumes everybody living in the UK is honest and should they pass away they will  be informed of such by the living relatives.  Whereas overseas they assume conversely no one will be bothered to advise them of your death and try to cheat the system. 

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Please tell me, is it the BE who will not issue the letters, or the Thai IO who will not accept them? I am confused.

Thai Immigration (at present) wont accept anything else, BE have decided to stop producing the letter from December.

[Thaidream]

The Thai Immigration Act and Police Order ask for evidence of income. They don't specify that the income has to come from a Government source.  One could own a home in London and rent it out and thus derive income from that.  When income is derived- the citizen has to get it via some financial instrument- a check; a deposit into their bank.  All legal income works the same way.\

How do you prove it- follow the trail  or follow the money- copy of check; copy of bank deposit; how does money come to Thailand- either transfer or via a Thai ATM. Show bank account statements or show ATM cards/slips.

 

The BE letter provided Thai Imm with a concise statement in which they could then work off of and ask for supporting documents to prove the amount.  Could they theoretically do without the letter- they could but then they have to do more work and ask everyone for their individual proof.

If I was Thai Imm I would develop a  letter in Thai  and English indicating that the signatory has declared his income under penalty of  perjury.  You sign it and if you have lied-suffer the consequences. Yes- I know- they still want the Embassy letter.

 

 

 

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The Thai Immigration Act and Police Order ask for evidence of income. They don't specify that the income has to come from a Government source.  One could own a home in London and rent it out and thus derive income from that.  When income is derived- the citizen has to get it via some financial instrument- a check; a deposit into their bank.  All legal income works the same way.\

How do you prove it- follow the trail  or follow the money- copy of check; copy of bank deposit; how does money come to Thailand- either transfer or via a Thai ATM. Show bank account statements or show ATM cards/slips.

 

The BE letter provided Thai Imm with a concise statement in which they could then work off of and ask for supporting documents to prove the amount.  Could they theoretically do without the letter- they could but then they have to do more work and ask everyone for their individual proof.

If I was Thai Imm I would develop a  letter in Thai  and English indicating that the signatory has declared his income under penalty of  perjury.  You sign it and if you have lied-suffer the consequences. Yes- I know- they still want the Embassy letter.

 

 

 

You say 'how does the money come into Thailand'....it doesn't have to.

I agree with your final sentence, but could Thai Imm be bothered to develop a letter or subsequently be bothered to follow up and check English, or other language, bank statements. Only if they really suspected the applicant of dodgy business. 

[Thaidream]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

ou say 'how does the money come into Thailand'....it doesn't have to.

I agree with your final sentence, but could Thai Imm be bothered to develop a letter or subsequently be bothered to follow up and check English, or other language, bank statements. Only if they really suspected the applicant of dodgy business. 

correct- it doesn't have to come into Thailand but people in Thailand need to  live on something and if retired- some income has to enter the country as you are not allowed to work.

 

Bank statements all work the same no matter what language- money in- amount and  money out and amount.  In my case- it even shows source (Government pension plus private pension) and amount debited and location of debit.  Applicant could be requested to have it translated into English or Thai. I hope it doesn't come to that  but it could be done.

 

BE would be much better off- still issuing a letter; a state dec/affidavit sworn under Oath or if they refuse issue the same letter and tell Thai Imm- that's the best we can do.

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, richiejom said:

Yes it mentions that other embassys have the option of an Avidavit https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

The other Embassies offer Stat Decs, not Affidavits.

 

A statutory declaration is not the same as an affidavit, although they have similar purposes. An affidavit is a written statement of fact, confirmed by oath or affirmation for use as evidence in court proceedings. A statutory declaration is also a statement of fact, but is not confirmed by oath or affirmation.

 

The BE do affirmations, but not for income.

[Thaidream]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

 

The BE do affirmations, but not for income.

They could do an Affidavit where the citizen writes in their income amounts and take an Oath it is true and correct. BE in Bangkok refuses to do this from what I have read but BE Hanoi; Cambodia and other  locations do.

[CharlieH]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

They could do an Affidavit where the citizen writes in their income amounts and take an Oath it is true and correct. BE in Bangkok refuses to do this from what I have read but BE Hanoi; Cambodia and other  locations do.

Still boils down to what Thai IO will accept, not what can be produced/obtained from wherever. 

[wgdanson]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

They could do an Affidavit where the citizen writes in their income amounts and take an Oath it is true and correct. BE in Bangkok refuses to do this from what I have read but BE Hanoi; Cambodia and other  locations do.

A affidavit would require the applicant to actually go to Bangkok to do the f....ing swearing. I doubt whether the BE will be there much longer!

[wgdanson]

3 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

Still boils down to what Thai IO will accept, not what can be produced/obtained from wherever. 

Have Thai Imm actually said that they will not accept the BE letter in its present format. Thought it was the BE who have said they cannot issue because they cannot 'verify' the income stated by the applicant. 

[Thaidream]

Just now, wgdanson said:

A affidavit would require the applicant to actually go to Bangkok to do the f....ing swearing. I doubt whether the BE will be there much longer!

True but if the BE wants to assist it's citizens an outreach schedule could be developed to handle things like affidavits and other business.

[Tanoshi]

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

They could do an Affidavit where the citizen writes in their income amounts and take an Oath it is true and correct. BE in Bangkok refuses to do this from what I have read but BE Hanoi; Cambodia and other  locations do.

Just to advise on the affirmation process for your English documents to be accepted by the Thai government.

 

Your documents would have to be 'legalised' by the FCO, then the Thai Embassy in the UK.

You could then make an 'affirmation' at the BE on production of your legalised UK documents.

The affirmation and your documents would then have to be translated to Thai and the translations legalised by the MFA.

 

Not a routine I'd want to adopt every year, and very costly.

I doubt the FCO could verify personal pension letters without your prior written permission anyway.

[CharlieH]

12 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

Have Thai Imm actually said that they will not accept the BE letter in its present format. Thought it was the BE who have said they cannot issue because they cannot 'verify' the income stated by the applicant. 

You are slightly confused here. Thai Immigration havnt said or stipulated anything, they just want the BE letter, no if's , no buts, no maybe. Thats the way they operate.

 

The BE have stated that the current service/letter will no longer be available from December. As has been reported, IO wont even consider an alternative, BE letter or try another route. (money in bank etc)

Thats my understanding.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Just to advise on the affirmation process for your English documents to be accepted by the Thai government.

 

Your documents would have to be 'legalised' by the FCO, then the Thai Embassy in the UK.

You could then make an 'affirmation' at the BE on production of your legalised UK documents.

The affirmation and your documents would then have to be translated to Thai and the translations legalised by the MFA.

 

Not a routine I'd want to adopt every year, and very costly.

I doubt the FCO could verify personal pension letters without your prior written permission anywa

This describes the process of legalization-  Have a look at BE Website Hanoi Vietnam- there is an example on their website of an affidavit-  one basically writes out their statement-  I affirm that I receive   xxxx amount of Pounds etc etc.  You sign it and swear to it. The Embassy indicates they cannot guarantee the veracity  but you have a letter that is sworn to.