UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[OJAS]

On 10/24/2018 at 5:45 PM, HappyAndRich said:

Do you seriously believe this is only affecting Brits? All other income letters are going to follow the same destiny.

And, yes, I do believe they are going to offer an option, due to that the Immigration law states its 800K or 65K a month. Or do you think they will change the law only for the UK Embassys income letter problem?

The only certainties AT THE PRESENT POINT IN TIME (in uppercase purely for emphasis) are:- (1) the British Embassy will be discontinuing its income confirmation letter service from 1st January, and (2) in the absence of an Embassy letter, the only method of proving finances for a retirement/marriage extension is 800k/400k in a Thai bank account seasoned for 3/2 months. Pending ANY ACTUAL (again in uppercase purely for emphasis) official announcements from the Immigration Bureau and/or other embassies (WHICH MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE FORTHCOMING), everything else which has been stated on this matter over the past couple of weeks or so should IMHO be treated as hearsay and idle speculation generated by the Thaivisa rumour mill.

Edited October 25, 2018 by OJAS

[Tanoshi]

5 hours ago, cleverman said:

If your embassy won't change their rules to keep you happy, do you really think IG will do the same. When pink pigs fly. IG want embassy letter. 

If other Embassies withdraw their Income letters, or Immigration refuse to accept them in the future because the incomes cannot be 'verified as per their request, then hundreds if not thousands of expats will be forced to relocate, or find an alternative solution, which will hit Immigrations remuneration, then you may well see pigs fly.

[HappyAndRich]

2 hours ago, OJAS said:

The only certainties AT THE PRESENT POINT IN TIME (in uppercase purely for emphasis) are:- (1) the British Embassy will be discontinuing its income confirmation letter service from 1st January, and (2) in the absence of an Embassy letter, the only method of proving finances for a retirement/marriage extension is 800k/400k in a Thai bank account seasoned for 3/2 months. Pending ANY ACTUAL (again in uppercase purely for emphasis) official announcements from the Immigration Bureau and/or other embassies (WHICH MAY NOT NECESSARILY BE FORTHCOMING), everything else which has been stated on this matter over the past couple of weeks or so should IMHO be treated as hearsay and idle speculation generated by the Thaivisa rumour mill.

Everything other say is speculation, and all you state is the facts then? You can belive what you want, and the others believe what they, I and we do.

However, you seem to be very worried.

[White Tiger]

One way forward might be to send your evidence of UK income to the Thai Embassy in London and ask them to issue a letter with their official stamp on it stating your UK income. Then use that for Thai immigration. 

 

I suggest this method for those who have their income in the UK and who do not want to transfer it to a Thai bank every month. But it may also be good for those who do transfer the income to a Thai bank every month.

 

I think the Thai Embassy would want a UK address to send the reply to - not everyone will have that so this way forward might not work for everyone.

 

(I had to do something along these lines when Thai immigration wanted to see a copy of my UK marriage certificate but with a Thai Embassy stamp on it - so maybe a similar type of process could work to get your UK income certified. )

 

Just an idea.

 

[Spidey]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:12 AM, HappyAndRich said:

What is pathetic? If you stay in a country you will clearly need money in the country you stay. therefore it can not be considered pathetic that a countries immigration what to see sufficient funds for issue a visa. You will not need to transfer 800k into an account if you don´t want. There will still be a way to show monthly income, but it has to come into a thai bank account so it can be truly verified. That is not pathetic, but it´s needed. There has been too many expats living in this country on falsified document regarding proven income, so that must just come to an end. There has been no indications that Immigration will change the possibility to prove monthly income, just because one office has ne officer that told one expat this. The only change that is a fact so far, is that things need to can be shown in real light and can not be hidden behind a false paper. Everything else we will just have to wait and see what solution that is going to be available.

The only proof of income that the Thai Immigration will accept is an embassy letter. There is no indication that this policy is likely to change. British citizens are no longer able to provide proof of income.

 

There is also zero evidence that even one British expat has submitted falsified documents to the BE to obtain an income letter. Your suggestion is quite insulting.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Spidey

[cleverman]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

If other Embassies withdraw their Income letters, or Immigration refuse to accept them in the future because the incomes cannot be 'verified as per their request, then hundreds if not thousands of expats will be forced to relocate, or find an alternative solution, which will hit Immigrations remuneration, then you may well see pigs fly.

The cost of running immigration offices, wages,cost of buildings,power, cars etc far out weighs their income from expats. Talk facts. 

[Spidey]

Just now, cleverman said:

The cost of running immigration offices, wages,cost of buildings,power, cars etc far out weighs their income from expats. Talk facts. 

Also, the provision of the embassy was allegedly a zero sum service.

[cleverman]

7 minutes ago, Spidey said:

The only proof of income that the Thai Immigration will accept is an embassy letter. There is no indication that this policy is likely to change. British citizens are no longer able to provide proof of income.

 

There is also zero evidence that even one British expat has submitted falsified documents to the BE to obtain an income letter. Your suggestion is quite insulting.

"Insulting", 55555 good one mate. 

[Spidey]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 11:45 AM, HappyAndRich said:

Do you seriously believe this is only affecting Brits? All other income letters are going to follow the same destiny.

And, yes, I do believe they are going to offer an option, due to that the Immigration law states its 800K or 65K a month. Or do you think they will change the law only for the UK Embassys income letter problem?

Immigration law does state that 65k monthly income is acceptable. The proof required is an embassy letter.

 

Do you think that the requirement will be changed for anyone? Thai Immigration have an easy, workable system, it's the British Embassy (and possibly others) that are refusing to use a tried and tested system. Why would the TI change a perfectly good system to accommodate the BE? There would also be loss of face for TI. Isn't going to happen.

[Spidey]

2 minutes ago, cleverman said:

"Insulting", 55555 good one mate. 

Have you got any evidence that British citizens have been falsifying income documents to obtain an embassy letter? No I thought not.

 

Yes grossly insulting.

[HappyAndRich]

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

The only proof of income that the Thai Immigration will accept is an embassy letter. There is no indication that this policy is likely to change. British citizens are no longer able to provide proof of income.

 

There is also zero evidence that even one British expat has submitted falsified documents to the BE to obtain an income letter. Your suggestion is quite insulting.

Like I stated in my comment, we have to wait and see what solutions that are going to be available. I, am quite sure there is going to be a possibility to prove income in another way. Like for example that they are going to accept a translated proof from your pension provider stamped by MFA, and that you have to provide bank statements showing the money stamp by your thai bank. The money must be transferred to Thailand every month of course.

My comment about income letters is not insulting at all.

 

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

Immigration law does state that 65k monthly income is acceptable. The proof required is an embassy letter.

 

Do you think that the requirement will be changed for anyone? Thai Immigration have an easy, workable system, it's the British Embassy (and possibly others) that are refusing to use a tried and tested system. Why would the TI change a perfectly good system to accommodate the BE? There would also be loss of face for TI. Isn't going to happen.

Yes, Immigration law does state 65K monthly income is acceptable. The text and instructions are writtwn like this:

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

That will then mean an income certificate can be anything verifying an income. It can also mean that it´s going to be enough with bank statement and letter of guarantee from a Thai bank. nowhere is Immigration going to have a loss of face. nor do they actually need to change any of the major rules. They already exist.

 

7 hours ago, Spidey said:

Have you got any evidence that British citizens have been falsifying income documents to obtain an embassy letter? No I thought not.

 

Yes grossly insulting.

Yes, I have evidence. Both on the UK side and the US side. That together with the knowledge of that as soon as a chance appears as an easy solution to get away from the real deal, many people instincively choose the wrong path. You know that too, so back to reality.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, HappyAndRich said:

Like I stated in my comment, we have to wait and see what solutions that are going to be available. I, am quite sure there is going to be a possibility to prove income in another way. Like for example that they are going to accept a translated proof from your pension provider stamped by MFA, and that you have to provide bank statements showing the money stamp by your thai bank. The money must be transferred to Thailand every month of course.

My comment about income letters is not insulting at all.

 

Yes, Immigration law does state 65K monthly income is acceptable. The text and instructions are writtwn like this:

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

That will then mean an income certificate can be anything verifying an income. It can also mean that it´s going to be enough with bank statement and letter of guarantee from a Thai bank. nowhere is Immigration going to have a loss of face. nor do they actually need to change any of the major rules. They already exist.

 

Yes, I have evidence. Both on the UK side and the US side. That together with the knowledge of that as soon as a chance appears as an easy solution to get away from the real deal, many people instincively choose the wrong path. You know that too, so back to reality.

The 800k rule is designed to show that you have sufficient in a Thai Bank to support yourself for the following 12 months. The 65k month rule is to show that you have a verifiable income source that you will be able to support yourself with. Apples and oranges, hence the quite different method of proof. No indication that TI will change the proof required for the 2 quite different criteria.

 

If you have evidence that British citizens have been submitting false documents to obtain income letters, then provide it. Otherwise it's grossly insulting to British Citizens who have been playing by the rules compared to those that swear false affidavits or those that use visa agents to circumnavigate the 800k baht rule.

[cleverman]

10 hours ago, Spidey said:

Have you got any evidence that British citizens have been falsifying income documents to obtain an embassy letter? No I thought not.

 

Yes grossly insulting.

 

10 hours ago, Spidey said:

Have you got any evidence that British citizens have been falsifying income documents to obtain an embassy letter? No I thought not.

 

Yes grossly insulting.

Definitely, I know several who do it.

[Spidey]

6 minutes ago, cleverman said:

 

Definitely, I know several who do it.

I know of, or even heard of, no one who has even attempted to present false information to the British Embassy.

 

Of the people you know, what evidence do they provide and how do they falsify it?

[HappyAndRich]

1 hour ago, Spidey said:

If you have evidence that British citizens have been submitting false documents to obtain income letters, then provide it. Otherwise it's grossly insulting to British Citizens who have been playing by the rules compared to those that swear false affidavits or those that use visa agents to circumnavigate the 800k baht rule.

Are you seriuos? Should I be the one that hang people out? It´s enough that everybody knows this is an ongoing thing. I am not saying that everybody does this, just that it exists too much. Why do you think Immigration want the UK Embassy to guarantee the information on these papers? Just because everything is all Hunky Dory?

If you want to live in your bubble of grossly insulting and out of touch with reality, be my guest. I choose to live in the real world, where everybody knows what´s going on. I will leave it with that, but you will surely have another comment. Have a nice day.

[Peterw42]

8 minutes ago, Spidey said:

I know of, or even heard of, no one who has even attempted to present false information to the British Embassy.

 

Of the people you know, what evidence do they provide and how do they falsify it?

Nowadays with photoshop, a scanner and a printer, it would be a pretty easy exercise to scan a pension letter, change the amount/date then re-print it. If its possible you could presume someone is possibly doing it.

 

 

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Nowadays with photoshop, a scanner and a printer, it would be a pretty easy exercise to scan a pension letter, change the amount/date then re-print it. If its possible you could presume someone is possibly doing it.

 

 

My pension letter (payslip) comes in the same form as my P60. Paper not readily available and very difficult to photoshop effectively.

 

If you are talking about the BE letter, has an embossed seal and again, not readily availiable paper. Not possible to effectively scan and print.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Spidey

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Nowadays with photoshop, a scanner and a printer, it would be a pretty easy exercise to scan a pension letter, change the amount/date then re-print it. If its possible you could presume someone is possibly doing it

Is it possible- yes- but that is why in addition to a pension letter- an entity would also ask for the UK/US bank statement showing direct deposit into the bank in the same amount.  How do they get it into Thailand?  Show the transfer data or the Debit cards one uses to extract the money in Thailand.  Hard to forge everything......that's why all institutions  that ask for income proof ask for more than 1 method.

[Spidey]

1 hour ago, HappyAndRich said:

Are you seriuos? Should I be the one that hang people out? It´s enough that everybody knows this is an ongoing thing. I am not saying that everybody does this, just that it exists too much. Why do you think Immigration want the UK Embassy to guarantee the information on these papers? Just because everything is all Hunky Dory?

If you want to live in your bubble of grossly insulting and out of touch with reality, be my guest. I choose to live in the real world, where everybody knows what´s going on. I will leave it with that, but you will surely have another comment. Have a nice day.

So you have no evidence that this is happening. You just wish it were true. Nobody is asking you to hang anybody out. You have already stated that you know people that do this. I just asked what method they use, not names.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Nowadays with photoshop, a scanner and a printer, it would be a pretty easy exercise to scan a pension letter, change the amount/date then re-print it. If its possible you could presume someone is possibly doing it.

 

 

The "shops" in Khao San road will fake any document for you for a fee.  Not of course that I am suggesting or recommending that anyone would or should avail themselves of such services.

[Spidey]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

The "shops" in Khao San road will fake any document for you for a fee.  Not of course that I am suggesting or recommending that anyone would or should avail themselves of such services.

And they would have no chance of passing muster at the British Embassy.

[scottiejohn]

1 minute ago, Spidey said:

And they would have no chance of passing muster at the British Embassy.

How do you know that they would have NO chance?

 

[HappyAndRich]

4 minutes ago, Spidey said:

So you have no evidence that this is happening. You just wish it were true. Nobody is asking you to hang anybody out. You have already stated that you know people that do this. I just asked what method they use, not names.

What method? Do you really know what you are talking about? There is only one method. It´s signing and giving a flase and higher income amount than they have. That both for US and UK citizens. After that you get the stamp, and leave it with your application. Before it could be possible that Immigration did a check by asking for passbook or bank statements, but very rarely. now that is going to be a standard issue instead of no proof at all with income letters. Time to live in the real life.

[Spidey]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

How do you know that they would have NO chance?

 

An acquaintance of mine bought a Thai driving licence for 500 baht on the Khao San Road. He kept it as a novelty. Wouldn't have fooled a 5 year old. The guys producing this rubbish on Khao San Road are just scammers producing worthless junk. Send one of their copies to the British Embassy at your peril.

[HappyAndRich]

20 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My pension letter (payslip) comes in the same form as my P60. Paper not readily available and very difficult to photoshop effectively.

 

If you are talking about the BE letter, has an embossed seal and again, not readily availiable paper. Not possible to effectively scan and print.

You would be amazed to know what is possible to do with a computer since the first IBM 1984.

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, HappyAndRich said:

What method? Do you really know what you are talking about? There is only one method. It´s signing and giving a flase and higher income amount than they have. That both for US and UK citizens. After that you get the stamp, and leave it with your application. Before it could be possible that Immigration did a check by asking for passbook or bank statements, but very rarely. now that is going to be a standard issue instead of no proof at all with income letters. Time to live in the real life.

Not how the British Embassy verifies income. Requires documented proof of your income. Completely different system to the US Embassy. I presume that you are a US citizen and have no doubt that your fellow countrymen routinely swear false affidavits as to their income. Not possible with British citizens.

[ubonjoe]

27 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My pension letter (payslip) comes in the same form as my P60. Paper not readily available and very difficult to photoshop effectively.

But have you been sending the original to the embassy when you apply for the income letter. All they require is a copy or a uploaded scan of it if doing by email.

I am wondering it that is the problem that immigration has actually pointed out to the UK embassy.

[007 RED]

54 minutes ago, Spidey said:

My pension letter (payslip) comes in the same form as my P60. Paper not readily available and very difficult to photoshop effectively.

 

If you are talking about the BE letter, has an embossed seal and again, not readily availiable paper. Not possible to effectively scan and print.

Please see attached.... Easily scanned.... Easily redacted - changed.... Standard laser printer paper - No water mark.... The embossed seal is also easy to replicate if required.

 

As I have indicated to you previously, it is possible with scanner and decent software to replicate any document.

 

 

Consular Letter_Redacted.pdf

Edited October 26, 2018 by 007 RED
Problem with attachment

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, HappyAndRich said:

You would be amazed to know what is possible to do with a computer since the first IBM 1984.

I operated my first computer at my local university in 1969. I have worked with computers ever since. I know exactly what computers can and can't do. Doubt that they would be able to effectively reproduce my P60. As for the British Embassy letter, it has an embossed seal, it's all about the paper that it's printed on, not the computer itself.

 

Try printing a banknote on a piece of A4 paper, using a computer alone, do you think that your bank would accept it?

[scottiejohn]

9 minutes ago, Spidey said:

An acquaintance of mine bought a Thai driving licence for 500 baht on the Khao San Road. He kept it as a novelty. Wouldn't have fooled a 5 year old. The guys producing this rubbish on Khao San Road are just scammers producing worthless junk. Send one of their copies to the British Embassy at your peril.

They produce fake travel documents, including passports which are good enough to get through passport controls around the world.  

 

http://www.thebigchilli.com/feature-stories/khao-sans-fake-documents-industry

 

As was said earlier it is time you burst the bubble you are living in and come into the real world where people will and do commit fraudulent acts if their circumstances require it.