UK Embassy Letters - The Way Forward.

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The other Embassies offer Stat Decs, not Affidavits.

The US embassy does not do Stat Decs. They only do affidavits. See: https://th.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/local-resources-of-u-s-citizens/notaries-public/

Perhaps in some countries would say a affidavit is only used in court cases but not all.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Moonlover said:

How could they possibly verify that the income presented in such a format was legitimate? It's just not doable is it. And the other reason that they gave was that data protection rules would prevent them from making any such enquires.

That's pretty much what the BE document lady said in her radio interview that has been posted earlier. It was one of the factors that they considered. I assume the cost of providing the service was the main issue and this Thai Immigration request was just the tipping point.

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, Esso49 said:

And if you have a UK address you do not have to complete a "certificate of existence" form every year either.  It appears the DWP assumes everybody living in the UK is honest and should they pass away they will  be informed of such by the living relatives.  Whereas overseas they assume conversely no one will be bothered to advise them of your death and try to cheat the system. 

Simple answer to that is those who reside in the UK appear on the electoral roll, so their existence is far easier to verify. And deaths, of course are registered too. So there is far less chance of fraudulent payments.

 

Not that this has got anything to do with embassy letters!

Edited October 22, 2018 by Moonlover

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, wgdanson said:

Many UK financial institutions demand that you send an original with a 'wet signature' for important documents, which is a pain when it take a week or so to get to UK from here. I have emailed copies in the past and told them that the original is onn its way. But, do you think those companies can tell the difference between an original signature done with a Parker fountain pen, leaving no indentation, and a laser copy....NO. And I did note that the Income Letter I got this week from the BE.....has a copy signature on it.

The BE accepts original UK banks statements as well as downloaded/printed versions of the same statements or a mixture of both. I have no idea if they are similarly relaxed on pension statements and other stuff offered up by applicants.

[Esso49]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The BE accepts original UK banks statements as well as downloaded/printed versions of the same statements or a mixture of both. I have no idea if they are similarly relaxed on pension statements and other stuff offered up by applicants.

To answer that question regarding pension statements.  In days of old you would provide them with originals and copies.  You still can if you wish I undertsand.  However, their preferred method of receiving these items now is via email as an attachment to your application for a Certificate of Income Letter. So yes they relaxed the requirement themselves for witnessing original documents.

[wgdanson]

2 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The BE accepts original UK banks statements as well as downloaded/printed versions of the same statements or a mixture of both. I have no idea if they are similarly relaxed on pension statements and other stuff offered up by applicants.

To add to what you say, yes the BE will accept pdfs of bank statements. I did my Income Letter from them and DID NOT print out a single sheet, filled in their forms with a pdf editor. They must be 'relaxed' about pension statements because I never sent them any (I don't get them), simply bank statements which say where the payment has come from DWP or whatever, both from my UK and Thai banks. £20k in the bank for next year, no worries then !  

 

Sorry just remembered I had to print out the Credit Card sheet because I needed to sign that one.

[Esso49]

1 minute ago, wgdanson said:

To add to what you say, yes the BE will accept pdfs of bank statements. I did my Income Letter from them and DID NOT print out a single sheet, filled in their forms with a pdf editor. They must be 'relaxed' about pension statements because I never sent them any (I don't get them), simply bank statements which say where the payment has come from DWP or whatever, both from my UK and Thai banks. £20k in the bank for next year, no worries then !  

 

Sorry just remembered I had to print out the Credit Card sheet because I needed to sign that one.

if you scan in your signature you don't even need to sign it in ink, just add a copy of the scan signature to the .pdf and they accept it ! absurdity at its best.

[NanLaew]

12 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

To add to what you say, yes the BE will accept pdfs of bank statements. I did my Income Letter from them and DID NOT print out a single sheet, filled in their forms with a pdf editor. They must be 'relaxed' about pension statements because I never sent them any (I don't get them), simply bank statements which say where the payment has come from DWP or whatever, both from my UK and Thai banks. £20k in the bank for next year, no worries then !  

 

Sorry just remembered I had to print out the Credit Card sheet because I needed to sign that one.

Pension statements original or copies are for those that get pensions and use this as their evidence in lieu of any related personal banking.

 

You and I just bank a wedge and provide original or copy statements as our evidence in lieu of not providing pension paperwork by virtue of our youth and vigor.

 

The fact that they have automated the process to such a degree that everything is done online with evidentiary documents attached as emails as an acceptable substitute to even seeing that it really exists, there's no way the BE could hope to comply with even the simplest interpretation of 'verification'.

 

Therefore the reason is purely driven by financial constraints. The BE document lady alluded as much very early in her radio interview. As an FCO cost center, the FCO has ordered that the BE find ways to save money and stopping these income letters are the low-hanging fruit. The undue stresses now placed on the long-term British residents in Thailand is simply collateral damage.

Edited October 22, 2018 by NanLaew

[Moonlover]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Instead they could have provided a Statutory Dec-like the Aussies and Americans and have the citizen make their statement and swear an oath under penalty of perjury and mark that on the declaration.

The notion that BE could offer to replace an income letter which has a very little scope for verification, with a Stat Dec which has no scope at all of verification I find somewhat baffling.

 

And it is of no use pointing out what the BEs do in other countries. They are not dealing with Thai immigration.

[cleverman]

4 hours ago, richiejom said:

no its grounds to offer an alternative to the letter

BE knows what other embassys do, they knew this when they made their decision. No grounds whatsoever. 

[Thaidream]

10 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

he notion that BE could offer to replace an income letter which has a very little scope for verification, with a Stat Dec which has no scope at all of verification I find somewhat baffling.

 

And it is of no use pointing out what the BEs do in other countries. They are not dealing with Thai immigration.

Presentably- you are taking no Oath when you p;process the BE letter and therefore there is no criminal penalty if you l;ie.  If one does an affidavit where you see an Embassy Official and take an Oath that the information is true and correct and then lie- there is a penalty-  Thai Imm is more inclined to understand taking an Oath than not.

 

As far as pointing out what BE does in other countries like Hanoi and Cambodia- the issue is why does BE have sworn affidavits in other countries but refuses to do them in Thailand.  A good negotiator will sit down with Thai- explain Data Protect and Privacy laws and ask them to understand limitations but offer them an alternative- a sworn affidavit.  Remember- there is no report of Thai Imm not accepting Embassy letters but there is  BE stating not only are they not issue the letter- they will not do Affidavits or search for an acceptable solution.

[cleverman]

30 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Presentably- you are taking no Oath when you p;process the BE letter and therefore there is no criminal penalty if you l;ie.  If one does an affidavit where you see an Embassy Official and take an Oath that the information is true and correct and then lie- there is a penalty-  Thai Imm is more inclined to understand taking an Oath than not.

 

As far as pointing out what BE does in other countries like Hanoi and Cambodia- the issue is why does BE have sworn affidavits in other countries but refuses to do them in Thailand.  A good negotiator will sit down with Thai- explain Data Protect and Privacy laws and ask them to understand limitations but offer them an alternative- a sworn affidavit.  Remember- there is no report of Thai Imm not accepting Embassy letters but there is  BE stating not only are they not issue the letter- they will not do Affidavits or search for an acceptable solution.

Yep, thatal do it. 

[lungbing]

I would have thought that the BE providing a simple letter and charging 52 GBP for it was cost effective.  They have now lost that income.

[Tanoshi]

9 minutes ago, richiejom said:

Which radio interview? is there a thread on this?  I think we should keep petitioning though we're on 195 now https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

 

[offset]

I have been told by somebody that did not know about the BE decision, that on the 31st December that the US embassy will be stopping the earning letters, and have been told by the Thai immigration that they will be able to be used for six months after that, and also bank statement will be ok for earnings related extensions which seems to be the same as the BE have stated

[Moonlover]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:54 AM, Esso49 said:

I hope this thread remains as your intent for those who rely upon certificate of income letters and not side tracked by others again

Didn't take long did it!

[offset]

5 minutes ago, richiejom said:

Others seem to be derailing it now mentioning other embassies ????  On a good note the petition is on 199 ... lets get 200 guys!  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

It was not meant to derail your petition but if other embassies are doing the same it must mean the Thai immigration have changed the guidelines and it nothing to do with the UK embassy

[Kadilo]

7 minutes ago, offset said:

It was not meant to derail your petition but if other embassies are doing the same it must mean the Thai immigration have changed the guidelines and it nothing to do with the UK embassy

There has been no official notice to that effect that I’ve seen. Sounds like maybe hearsay based on what BE initially rumoured?

[chickenslegs]

I was looking around for more information and found this on the Pattaya City Expats Club website (I hope they don't mind me linking it) ...

<removed>

 

The final couple of paragraphs are most interesting.

[offset]

12 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

There has been no official notice to that effect that I’ve seen. Sounds like maybe hearsay based on what BE initially rumoured?

Yes you maybe correct but I would expect the notice to come out by the end of the month to give 3 month notice of the change which was the same as the UK gave notice

[Jip99]

5 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Please tell me, is it the BE who will not issue the letters, or the Thai IO who will not accept them? I am confused.

 

BE will not issue...... because Thai immigration wanted something ‘stronger’ than a certification.

[tgeezer]

Why not call the source of all those deposits income rather than pension? If you didn’t have a pension you could still ‘retire’ here but the proof would be, or has been, in the bank, what can an embassy letter add to that?


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[cleverman]

2 hours ago, offset said:

It was not meant to derail your petition but if other embassies are doing the same it must mean the Thai immigration have changed the guidelines and it nothing to do with the UK embassy

Definitely, I recon that's what it means.

[bigginhill]

8 hours ago, Thaidream said:

correct- it doesn't have to come into Thailand but people in Thailand need to  live on something and if retired- some income has to enter the country as you are not allowed to work.

 

Bank statements all work the same no matter what language- money in- amount and  money out and amount.  In my case- it even shows source (Government pension plus private pension) and amount debited and location of debit.  Applicant could be requested to have it translated into English or Thai. I hope it doesn't come to that  but it could be done.

 

BE would be much better off- still issuing a letter; a state dec/affidavit sworn under Oath or if they refuse issue the same letter and tell Thai Imm- that's the best we can do.

The suggestions often quote pensions, I however reached the 800,000 quote by combination, so much in a thai bank, so much from a pension and so much income. the BE letter summed it up, (I attached proof)

I am not married, so 800,00, I own a condo, so I not necessarily have to bring in the entire amount to Thailand ( especially as the married seemingly can live on 400,000) 

My tax return stating my income is in Italian (and is the size of a small towns telephone directory) 

No BE letter means taking in Italian documents to Imm. 

Having to bring in all the money is not required by Thai law.

The Embassy has seriously let down those who "avail" of them, as the Ambassador says. And I do not consider his service "top notch". He could at least negotiate with, for example, the Australian Embassy that we may do the stat dec there. He would not lose face and would resolve the problem for us. 

 

[55Jay]

3 hours ago, richiejom said:

Others seem to be derailing it now mentioning other embassies ????  On a good note the petition is on 199 ... lets get 200 guys!  https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/230120

203 now!

[tgeezer]

The suggestions often quote pensions, I however reached the 800,000 quote by combination, so much in a thai bank, so much from a pension and so much income. the BE letter summed it up, (I attached proof)

I am not married, so 800,00, I own a condo, so I not necessarily have to bring in the entire amount to Thailand ( especially as the married seemingly can live on 400,000) 

My tax return stating my income is in Italian (and is the size of a small towns telephone directory) 

No BE letter means taking in Italian documents to Imm. 

Having to bring in all the money is not required by Thai law.

The Embassy has seriously let down those who "avail" of them, as the Ambassador says. And I do not consider his service "top notch". He could at least negotiate with, for example, the Australian Embassy that we may do the stat dec there. He would not lose face and would resolve the problem for us. 

 

How do you expect the BE to be able to verify private pensions, share dividends, rental income etc. ?

My state pension is £5200 per year a shortfall of about 600,000 Bt. let's assume that I can make up the lot with dividends, rental income etc. but can't prove it, then I would need to sell some assets in order to create a cash deposit in a Thai bank.

Cash which came from your home country earns more interest in a Thai bank and can be repatriated if you don't want to commit to Thailand. Selling £15000 which earned 5%, a sensible return in funds or bonds, is less than £1000 a year 'income' lost which is insignificant on the income side but could completely negate the need to prove anything other than a letter from the DWP on that side. In my experience most people see their funds going up and down like whore's drawers anyway and would never notice the effect of taking out £15000.

Immigration probably can't see why someone who retires to Thailand is not prepared to do that in order to make everyone's life easier. They must conclude that the applicant probably doesn't have the resources they claim to have, the embassy also probably thinks that.

The Embassy is not letting anyone down.

 

 

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[Thaidream]

39 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

How do you expect the BE to be able to verify private pensions, share dividends, rental income etc. ?
My state pension is £5200 per year a shortfall of about 600,000 Bt. let's assume that I can make up the lot with dividends, rental income etc. but can't prove it, then I would need to sell some assets in order to create a cash deposit in a Thai bank.
Cash which came from your home country earns more interest in a Thai bank and can be repatriated if you don't want to commit to Thailand. Selling £15000 which earned 5%, a sensible return in funds or bonds, is less than £1000 a year 'income' lost which is insignificant on the income side but could completely negate the need to prove anything other than a letter from the DWP. In my experience most people see their funds going up and down like whore's drawers anyway and would never notice the effect of taking out £15000.
Immigration probably can't see why someone who retires to Thailand is not prepared to do that in order to make everyone's life easier. They must conclude that the applicant probably doesn't have the resources they claim to have, the embassy also probably thinks that.
The Embassy is not letting anyone down.

There has been no change in Thai Law and no other Embassy has announced the letter will be terminated.

 

No entity including Thai imm can absolutely 100% verify what one presents or says is 100% correct but the Embassy letters from most Embassies are made and stated with the applicant taking an Oath swearing that the info is true and it is made under penalty of perjury. That means if you lie you have commuted a crime. The BE letter  has no Oath and is not an affidavit or statutory declaration so instead of coming up with another way that is acceptable- they just decided to stop the letter without any alternative for their citizens.

 

As far as  people not having resources- many people have incomes well over 800K   each year  but have also invested millions of baht in homes; condo's; land; small business; cars etc.  Had they had  alot more lead time- they may not have done that.  Cutting off the letter with only 90 days lead time is  not only  wrong- it shows a complete lack of understanding of how Thai Imm works and  no understanding of the chaos that may incur in the lives of citizens.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Thaidream

[tgeezer]

There has been no change in Thai Law and no other Embassy has announced the letter will be terminated.
 
No entity including Thai imm can absolutely 100% verify what one presents or says is 100% correct but the Embassy letters from most Embassies are made and stated with the applicant taking an Oath swearing that the info is true and it is made under penalty of perjury. That means if you lie you have commuted a crime. The BE letter  has no Oath and is not an affidavit or statutory declaration so instead of coming up with another way that is acceptable- they just decided to stop the letter without any alternative for their citizens.
 
As far as  people not having resources- many people have incomes well over 800K   each year  but have also invested millions of baht in homes; condo's; land; small business; cars etc.  Had they had  alot more lead time- they may not have done that.  Cutting off the letter with only 90 days lead time is  not only  wrong- it shows a complete lack of understanding of how Thai Imm works and  no understanding of the chaos that may incur in the lives of citizens.

I don’t know whether breaking an oath is worse than presenting forged documents, both could be very hot water.

To produce an income of 780,000 per year the underlying capital must be in the 100,000s of GBP, 800,000 Baht cash is only 20,000 GBP, and you say that things which people have bought and now own prevent them cashing in some holdings.


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[sandyf]

On 10/20/2018 at 10:19 AM, ubonjoe said:

You only have to prove your income on the date of application.

How would somebody getting their first extension prove 12 months of income if they had just started their pension or whatever.

Three months is closer to correct.

I am not going to read all the pages so apologies if someone else has addressed this point.

The UK embassy letter is based on a 12 month income, people in their first month of pension would be in possession of a letter from the provider stating the amount to be paid annually. If it is a fixed pension it is the only letter you will ever get, I use one that is now 12 years old. It is these letters from pension providers that the embassy have been using to declare having seen evidence of income. They are not in a position to confirm the recipient has actually received the funds and it is that point that has been challenged.

The question on peoples mind is how will immigration translate the embassy requirement for proof of annual income into something they can relate to.

I think that most would be more than happy that your interpretation is correct and that immigration would pro rata on a 3 month basis deposited to a Thai account, but are looking for some assurance that would be the case.

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The UK embassy letter is based on a 12 month income, people in their first month of pension would be in possession of a letter from the provider stating the amount to be paid annually.

They state a annual income on the letter but do not require 12 months of proof. They convert a proven monthly income to one year.

Many people only present bank statements for 2 or 3 months showing the income going into a bank.