Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[ukrules]

5 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

At this point in time there is no statements by anyone that the income method no longer exists.

Why speculate on why when they haven't actually done anything ?

Apart from the people who have been told by immigration that this is the last time they can use the income method and to get their money in the bank for next year if they want another extension in the future.

 

Maybe immigration are jumping the gun by saying this, who knows.

Edited October 31, 2018 by ukrules

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

Apart from the people who have been told by immigration that this is the last time they can use the income method - get your money in the bank for next year.

Only if you cannot get a income letter since the rules have not been changed.

I think those were answers to a question about not having proof of income from an embassy.

[totally thaied up]

4 hours ago, JLCrab said:

At least with the 65K monthly in the Thai bank route you get to spend the money in the Thai population at large -- with the 800K in the bank route that money is essentially dormant as anything you spend has to be topped up for the next year's extension.

The 800/400K would be the easy way out for the Thais. Change police orders and they then have for certain, extra billions of baht every year in the banking system. May or may not happen but it is a great way to top up the banks, make sure the hospitals have got access to money if you get sick (so you cannot do a runner) and make the extensions very easy for them to process. I hope this is not true. Limits could be lifted and it could become very uncomfortable for a lot of people (those married with family).

 

Thailand is just now bringing itself into the 21st century of 'keeping up with the Jones' in Visa rules. You only have to look at certain 'other' Countries in the news for reasons why.

 

Need now to wait from all the different Immigration Offices around Thailand to see what is going to happen over the next few months to see if this is going to be uniform or not. I do not know what the latest numbers are in how many Americans or British People are in Thailand for 2018, but I think they hit the biggest targets first.

[Peterw42]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

Apart from the people who have been told by immigration that this is the last time they can use the income method - get your money in the bank for next year.

I think I will wait for something more substantial than 2nd/3rd hand facebook posts. There are guys on this thread stating that the income method has been shut down, to support their wild conspiracy theories about Thailand needs the money.

[marcusarelus]

10 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Ahh i cant come up with a good answer so I will use the ole you are a thai basher. Im surprised you didnt tell me to go home too. Stupid people that like to quote figures without thinking about them might say yes other countries have higher debt to gdp ratios but they have the means to support those levels with natural resources, an educated workforce, technology, manufacturing bases etc. etc.etc., thailand doesnt unless you consider rice a natural resource.

The country’s economy grew 4.8 per cent - end of March, the fastest pace of growth since the first quarter of 2013

The industrial and service sectors are the main sectors in the Thai gross domestic product, with the former accounting for 39.2 percent of GDP. Thailand's agricultural sector produces 8.4 percent of GDP.

Thailand is the second-largest economy in Southeast Asia, after Indonesia.

Its surplus in the current account balance ranks tenth of the world. 

Thailand ranks second in Southeast Asia in external trade volume, after Singapore.

Thailand is the ASEAN leader in automotive production and sales. The sector employed approximately 417,000 workers in 2015, representing 6.5 per cent of total employment across all manufacturing industries and accounting for roughly 10 percent of the country's GDP. In 2014, Thailand exported US$25.8 billion in automotive goods.

Auto production
Thailand 1,988,823
United Kingdom 1,749,385
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry#By_country

 

I didn't mention go home because it's obvious you have never been to Thailand.

 

 

[Peterw42]

16 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

The 800/400K would be the easy way out for the Thais. Change police orders and they then have for certain, extra billions of baht every year in the banking system.

It brings no more money into the banking system, 800k deposited monthly (65k) or 800k deposited in a lump sum, is still 800k over a 12 month period. You are not bringing in less money each year using the income method.

Year in, year out, The Thai banking system has the same amount of money in it

Edited October 31, 2018 by Peterw42

[Dante99]

6 hours ago, JLCrab said:

So if the Police Order is still in effect for the monthly income route, and the affidavit from the Embassy has been disallowed, Thai IMM has to come up with SOME way to implement the monthly income option of the Police Order.

Easy, they can just say no affidavit, no income route available.  After all it appears only two nationalities effected as of now, right?

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

It brings no more money into the banking system, 800k deposited monthly (65k) or 800k deposited in a lump sum, is still 800k over a 12 month period. You are not bringing in less money each year using the income method.

Year in, year out, The Thai banking system has the same amount of money in it

What are you on about?

The income method (at least up to now) has never required full annual import of the claimed income.

The bank method certainly doesn't either.

Many retirogrants for example have been showing the SAME static 800K for many years.

 

[totally thaied up]

Just now, Peterw42 said:

Year in, year out, The Thai banking system has the same amount of money in it

Thanks for bringing that up. Still, how many people were not bringing in what they said via the income method (well, not what they claimed) each year? In my old Condo building, I knew guys living on just about nothing and they certainly did not have 65K a month and would not had the 800K in the bank. Some have not been home for five or more years. These guys will now have to head off to the Philippines or somewhere else. I just talking about (what I think) is guaranteed money, not pie in the sky stuff. My Condo was just a small place and this would have been going on all around Thailand. I have not been living in a Condo complex for many years now, most of these guys may have drifted off, but that was my experience. I have not qualms about having money in a Thai bank but I would not put my life savings in one! My investments at home are doing okay and I do not want all my eggs in one basket. 

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

Thanks for bringing that up. Still, how many people were not bringing in what they said via the income method (well, not what they claimed) each year? In my old Condo building, I knew guys living on just about nothing and they certainly did not have 65K a month and would not had the 800K in the bank. Some have not been home for five or more years. These guys will now have to head off to the Philippines or somewhere else. I just talking about (what I think) is guaranteed money, not pie in the sky stuff. My Condo was just a small place and this would have been going on all around Thailand. I have not been living in a Condo complex for many years now, most of these guys may have drifted off, but that was my experience. I have not qualms about having money in a Thai bank but I would not put my life savings in one! My investments at home are doing okay and I do not want all my eggs in one basket. 

I know 4 guys in Phuket that share the same 800k, so not always people using the income method cheating the system.

[Peterw42]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What are you on about?

The income method (at least up to now) has never required full annual import of the claimed income.

The bank method certainly doesn't either.

Many retirogrants for example have been showing the SAME static 800K for many years.

 

There are some posters that insist the 65k is supposed to come from outside thailand each month, as you say, up until now, not a requirement to prove it.

[balo]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:50 PM, marcusarelus said:

You're lost.  Savings rates in banks in Norway are half of what is available in Thailand.

Why are you feeding us with fake news? The interest rates for deposits in Norway are higher than in Thailand. If you want a link to prove it I can give it to you. 

 

You are just like Donald Trump , you should get a twitter account. 

[marcusarelus]

12 minutes ago, balo said:

Why are you feeding us with fake news? The interest rates for deposits in Norway are higher than in Thailand. If you want a link to prove it I can give it to you. 

 

You are just like Donald Trump , you should get a twitter account. 

Last time I looked a year or so ago Norway was paying 1/2 a percent  to 1 % on normal savings accounts.  Why am I out of date?  How much does a normal savings account earn and what would you lose to put the money in a Thai bank for 90 days?

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

2 hours ago, Notagain said:

Then tell me what is the reason for this sudden change in requirements ? The system was working just fine for many many years, Now they want 400/800K baht in their banking system for what reason ??? What is your theory for the sudden change with little notice.

IMHO - People taking advantage of the current system has caused Immigration to clamp down.

 

Same with all of the other Clampdowns, a small number of people abuse the system and the majority of people who abide by the rules suffer.

Even if "abuse" had been found and documented (I have not heard of this), I think it is a fantasy that immigration cares about things in this way.  It's a very Western way of thinking (a fantasy there, also), implying a sort of "morality in the system" which isn't really there.

 

2 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

All of the Clampdowns (Exempt, ED, Tourist & now Non-O) are trying to identify/prevent people from working illegally.

The ED was "solved" by higher kickbacks to get extensions from immigration.  They don't care if people actually went to school; they wanted more brown-envelope money - and got it.  Tourist Visas don't pay immigration.  Embassy-letters help people not use agents, who don't have 800K Baht in cash to put in a bank-acct for 3 months.

 

I am surprised people don't see what's really going on in the immigration-mindset, and can only assume they are decent-folks, so mistakenly-assume public-officials are too, and/or have not had a bad-experience yet, and won't believe it until it happens to them.

 

As to reason(s) for this I don't find probable:

• I would need to see some evidence to support the  "increase bank reserves" theory - namely that the published reserve-values are somehow fictitious. 
• Similar with the "unpaid hospital costs" issue - as that could be easily fixed without reducing expat foreign-capital spending via a "stabilize and send-home" insurance system for all visitors, which I described, up-thread. 
• UK/USA Foreigners are not stealing Thai jobs in significant numbers - primarily because wages are higher in our home-countries - and immigration is handing out out "L" visas to poor foreigners, to undercut Thai wages and job-opportunities - so "lost jobs for Thais" is clearly not a priority for them.

OTOH, there are many other more probable explanations.  In general, and especially in this case, "follow the money" is the Ocam's Razor of politics and public-policy (as we saw ever so clearly with the so-called "ED-Visa crackdown").  Given how the agent-system works, it's clear that one can "buy things" from immigration right out in the open.  Since this is what they actually want:

• Suitcases of money from China in exchange for reducing the Western presence in Thailand is one possibility. 
• Increasing agent-business (and agent-kickbacks) and/or elite-visa sales could also be factors. 

I'm open to other theories which reflect how immigration really functions.

Edited October 31, 2018 by JackThompson

[mogandave]

Charles Schwab ATM card reimburses ATM fees. Besides, that I don't know any other US banks. can you name a few. I have ATM cards for all major US banks like Citi (no fee at their ATMs in Bangkok), Capital One, BofA, Chase, Ally, 

Fidelity reimburses ATM fees as well.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Notagain said:

Ahh i cant come up with a good answer so I will use the ole you are a thai basher. Im surprised you didnt tell me to go home too. Stupid people that like to quote figures without thinking about them might say yes other countries have higher debt to gdp ratios but they have the means to support those levels with natural resources, an educated workforce, technology, manufacturing bases etc. etc.etc., thailand doesnt unless you consider rice a natural resource.

They don't have some of the problems found in the West, because

• They don't have a massive nanny-state - instead a system where a large % of those who don't find employment can "go back home and farm."  We Americans lost almost all our family farms, so are "homeless" or on the dole if unemployed.
• They don't have a massive trade-deficit.  Go into a Big-C and look for the "Made In Thailand" tag.  Now go into a Wal-Mart, and find the "Made in China" tags.  This also counters your "manufacturing" angle - Thailand has a lot of manufacturing.
• You joke about rice, but up here in the boonies, it's mostly rubber, cassava, and other things as cash-crops.  The rice ensures they don't need to import food to survive (a national-policy, thanks to the wisdom of HM IX).  I could go on-and-on with the self-sustainability bit - huge fan of that program.
• They are weaker on the energy-front, as compared to some nations, but have hydro, some natural-gas, and plant-based alcohol-fuel.

This isn't happening because Thailand is broke as a nation.  But many Thai citizens are poor, and booting more of us out will further reduce their opportunities.

Edited October 31, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

Not responded to what? And to who?

AFAIK nobody officially asked anything to TI, so I don't see why they would have to react in any way.

 

IMHO UK & USA Embassies should have contacted TI first

and asked for an exact written answer about changes of rules to come (if any exist...)

but they should have done that BEFORE the posts they made on their website.

3 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

If Thai Immigration was started to refuse letters, then yes we could thing that they have to come with some other way, but they don't refuse letter and nothing says they will one day refuse letters, so they is no reason that they have to do something.

Your embassy created the problem; your embassy has to negotiate to find another way.

Are both embassies making the whole story about TI demanding verification for some other reason?  I don't know what that reason would be.

 

The letters' cancellations (UK and USA) was reported as having resulted from discussions with Thai authorities in May of this year.  Perhaps they were waiting for TI to spill the beans, then decided giving a heads-up to their expats was better sooner rather than later. 

 

I think the embassies should have made a public-statement earlier, stating that TI told them letters dated after 2018 would not be accepted by TI, but insisted they would still offer the letters in the hope TI would reconsider (warning any letter-applicants of what TI had said).  This would have let TI deal with the angry response in the context of "The embassies didn't change anything - what's the sudden problem?" 

 

Maybe that's what the Australians are doing - or were they not given the same "must verify everything" ultimatum?  I suppose we will find out when Aussies present embassy income-letters which were created after January, 2019.

[Pattaya46]

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I think the embassies should have made a public-statement earlier, stating that TI told them letters dated after 2018 would not be accepted by TI, but insisted they would still offer the letters in the hope TI would reconsider (warning any letter-applicants of what TI had said).  This would have let TI deal with the angry response in the context of "The embassies didn't change anything - what's the sudden problem?" 

All your post is pure speculation (as at least 90% of this thread )

There is not even the start of a tiny proof that TI wants change anything to the actual system.

 

IMHO, if TI wanted a change from Embassies about this "Verified Income Letter", they would have made an official request by mail, as they made in the past for previous changes. And I cannot believe that in 2018, such a letter sent to tens of embassies (77!) does not "leak" on the Internet...

[HAL9000]

11 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Income into a Thai bank or the 800k, for 90 days, in a Thai bank ?

I didn't talk to them at all about the 800k method. We only talked about using the 65k or 40k monthly income method.

[HAL9000]

10 hours ago, pontious said:

When you say SS income letter are you saying 'the embassy letter'?

No. This is the Social Security income certification letter that you download or print from the Social Security website.

[JackThompson]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

All your post is pure speculation (as at least 90% of this thread )

There is not even the start of a tiny proof that TI wants change anything to the actual system.

 

IMHO, if TI wanted a change from Embassies about this "Verified Income Letter", they would have made an official request by mail, as they made in the past for previous changes. And I cannot believe that in 2018, such a letter sent to tens of embassies (77!) does not "leak" on the Internet...

To be clear, you are saying you believe both the UK and USA embassies are lying to us about why they are discontinuing the letters?  I would not say that is impossible, and the UK was scaling-down services - but what does the USA stand to gain by doing this?

[Ebumbu]

It appears we're past speculation and into the fire now, in 2018. My comments below are about the income method, related to type-O visa extensions (based on retirement), not the 800k baht savings method: 

I've just been speaking with a volunteer at Phuket immigrations. My takeaway is that Phuket immigrations now want "guaranteed" income if someone is using the income method. A guaranteed method would be something like a pension or it will be rejected. That is, even with an affidavit. It won't fly unless the IO considers your income "guaranteed." 

 

I asked this volunteer if in their personal experience, they are seeing Americans rejected who have a valid US embassy affidavits and even have some other "proof." This volunteer confirmed, YES, that is correct. 

 

I asked what is considered guaranteed income. There is no definitive answer to that question. It seems to be completely at the discretion of IO. Here is exactly what they said: 

 

  Quote

the only guaranteed income Phuket Immigration is like a pension, any other income which is not 100 % guaranteed for the next 12 month like interest rate or income from shareholders could not be accepted.

 

  Quote

just to let you know again, the immigration officer must get the feeling that your income is somehow guaranteed for the next 12 months and then it will be accepted.

In my mind, this effectively ends the income method for Americans in Phuket who do not have a government pension, or something Thai immigrations considers guaranteed.

Looks like I've been effectively evicted from Phuket without warning. I'm going to turn into one of these sour TV curmudgeons at this rate. No rules. Goalpost keeps moving. You might find out when it's too late. I think I'll need to scramble and make a mad dash to Jomtien before the end of the year. Any suggestions? 

 

[Pattaya46]

30 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

To be clear, you are saying you believe both the UK and USA embassies are lying to us //?

I never said such a thing,

and these embassies never said that the requirement from TI changed. 

They said that TI confirmed that the income had to be verified.

 

So I believe in this other scenario that someone reported: BE spotted a potential legal problem with this letter (in an audit?); they asked TI if the figures on the letter had legal consequence and had to be verified; TI replied that yes, as before.

It could be not a change on TI side, but a change of law in western countries (Data protection?) than now prevent/forbid to provide such letters.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Pattaya46

[JimmyJ]

10 hours ago, onera1961 said:

Charles Schwab ATM card reimburses ATM fees. Besides, that I don't know any other US banks. can you name a few. I have ATM cards for all major US banks like Citi (no fee at their ATMs in Bangkok), Capital One, BofA, Chase, Ally, 

State Farm.

 

Fidelity Investments.

 

Also I believe it's called AAA Bank or something like that but it's only for people who were in the US Military or possibly with family in the military.

[JimmyJ]

9 hours ago, jimn said:

Thanks for your comment Jimmy. However it is my experience that all Thai bank atms always charge 220 baht withdrwal fee on overseas cards.

 

Correct.

 

Then some (a few) US ATM cards refund the charge.

(See Post #1795 directly above).

Edited October 31, 2018 by JimmyJ

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

To be clear, you are saying you believe both the UK and USA embassies are lying to us //?

I never said such a thing,

Ok. Sorry - will try to figure out what you are trying to say.  It's not personal - just want to find out what this is really all about.

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

and these embassies never said that the requirement from TI changed. 

They said TI now wants verification, which they cannot provide (and never did).

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

They said that TI confirmed that the income had to be verified.

This is a change.  TI wants something new and different.

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

So I believe in this other scenario that someone reported: BE spotted a potential legal problem with this letter (in an audit?); they asked TI if the figures on the letter had legal consequence and had to be verified; TI replied that yes, as before.

I am not aware of a "before" when this was the case.  USA letters explicitly say the opposite.

 

1 hour ago, Pattaya46 said:

It could be not a change on TI side, but a change of law in western countries (Data protection?) than now prevent/forbid to provide such letters.

The USA is, and has been, legally bound to not verify anything except you are who you say you are, a USA citizen, and you are swearing something on a paper is true.  The disclaimer on the letter makes it clear it is just an affidavit.  Some amphoes told me my "freedom to marry" letter was useless, due to this wording (though were happy to marry me for agent-money).

 

I am perfectly willing to believe we are being mislead by our govt-officials (embassy), but know no reason for the USA to do this - including in response to the UK doing it because of some conversation where the UK tried to weasel-out of providing their letter.  I was willing to believe this might be the case for the UK embassy, since they were scaling down operations and generally trying to avoid in-person services like passport-issuance.  But the USA still has their large setup.

[esqy]

UbonJoe: What is difference between the two. I don't get your reasoning for your opinion.

The money in the bank can be taken out to live on. It does not have to sit there all year,

 

For an American, if the foreign bank account exceeds $10,000 dollars at anytime, a Report of Foreign Bank Account (FBAR) to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) must be filed.  400,000 and 800,000 baht annual deposit accounts would require that annual filing.  The monthly requirements of 40,000 and 65,000 baht would not require filing a FBAR if the account stays less than $10,000.  Do the British have an equivalent filing?

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts-fbar

Edited October 31, 2018 by esqy
zero

[elviajero]

9 hours ago, Pib said:

 

From the U.S. Embassy Vientiane website.  Summary: as already said by ubonjoe above, no can do.

https://la.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/notaries-public/

*** Starting JULY 2014 *** 

[elviajero]

7 hours ago, ukrules said:

I will summarise a post I read on some 'Hua Hin' facebook group yesterday :

 

Picked up a 1 year stamp from Hua Hin Immigration yesterday, the officer said that next year will need to show 400k funds in the bank instead of monthly income + embassy letter...

 

He then went on to mention that he'd better start saving up for next years extension...presumably because he's using the income method now. Others chimed in confirming the same had happened to them recently.

 

Someone else said "I asked about a monthly transfer of money into my Thai account but he said no."

 

So there you have it - money in the bank only from Hua Hin immigration, two days ago.

 

The message is clear : Start saving or pack your bags...

 

One officers opinion doesn't really count for much. We need to wait for the top bosses to decide what to do and make an annoucement.

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, esqy said:

UbonJoe: What is difference between the two. I don't get your reasoning for your opinion.

The money in the bank can be taken out to live on. It does not have to sit there all year,

 

For an American, if the foreign bank account exceeds $10,000 dollars at anytime, a Report of Foreign Bank Account (FBAR) to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) must be filed.  400,000 and 800,00 baht annual deposit accounts would require that annual filing.  The monthly requirements of 40,000 and 65,000 baht would not require filing a FBAR if the account stays less than $10,000.  Do the British have an equivalent filing?

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts-fbar

FBAR of course is a U.S. thing. I've been filing it for many years. There have been significant improvements in the ease of filing (online). Now it is very, very easy. Much easier than filing a tax return. There is nothing to worry about if you are required to file FBAR. However, there is a lot to worry about if you are required to file FBAR and fail to do so. Avoiding the need to file FBAR is not a good reason to avoid the Thai immigration bank account method.