Just Received Some Bad News For US Citizens. No More Income Affidavits.

[JLCrab]

Thanks to some on here who want to discuss macro- and micro-economic issues behind any changes to Thai Immigration policies. I just want to know the meat & potatoes: What are or will be any changes to Thai immigration policies.

[metisdead]

Some off topic posts and the replies have been removed. 

[Pattaya46]

59 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

What are or will be any changes to Thai immigration policies.

- No change till today in TI rules

- No announce of a change to come for next year

- None of us knows for the future

[mogandave]

- No change till today in TI rules
- No announce of a change to come for next year
- None of us knows for the future

Some of us knows the future, we just don’t know who...

[onera1961]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

- No change till today in TI rules

- No announce of a change to come for next year

- None of us knows for the future

Some brave souls whose extension is due soon can test the water by not submitting the embassy letter and solely relying on up to date monthly deposit in a Thai bank of 65K/month. 

[mogandave]

Some brave souls whose extension is due soon can test the water by not submitting the embassy letter and solely relying on up to date monthly deposit in a Thai bank of 65K/month. 

Or documents that substantiate their income...

[JLCrab]

35 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

What are or will be any changes to Thai immigration policies.

- No change till today in TI rules

- No announce of a change to come for next year

- None of us knows for the future

That's right and at least for me -- having obtained my last affidavit based retirement extension just last week -- I will not have to make a decision as to what to do for the NEXT extension for about 8 months and I'm now set-up for that whether there are any new options or not.

[Tanoshi]

31 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Some brave souls whose extension is due soon can test the water by not submitting the embassy letter and solely relying on up to date monthly deposit in a Thai bank of 65K/month. 

The train wreck could start as early as January, when some IO's refuse to accept even the Embassy letters.

[inThailand]

Why blame the embassies? When the change is really about immigration waking up and realizing the embassy letters do not mean income was verified, so they will no longer except them. 

Imo, immigration is never going to sort thru any documents to verify monthly income, they are as lazy as the embassy folks. 

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The train wreck could start as early as January, when some IO's refuse to accept even the Embassy letters.

I am assuming that the 3 embassies stating the same information have gotten their info from a high level source at the Immigration Bureau.

If those rogue offices that start doing silly things they could be reported to the bureau or the division over them.

I am hoping somebody will report the nonsense requirements that the Phuket immigration office is putting out.

[onera1961]

11 minutes ago, mogandave said:

Or documents that substantiate their income...

All documents can be faked. It will create a new fake document industry, just like they have fake Social Security card industry in the US.

[mogandave]

All documents can be faked. It will create a new fake document industry, just like they have fake Social Security card industry in the US.

The income affidavits could be faked as well, yes?


Most people aren’t criminals and generally aren’t interested in participating in criminal activity.

Does a fence keep everyone out? No. Does it keep most people out? Yes.

[Pattaya46]

16 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Why blame the embassies? When the change is really about immigration waking up and realizing the embassy letters do not mean income was verified, so they will no longer except them. 

I disagree. The TI requirement for an income letter "verifying your income" is nothing new.

TI may have remind embassies this requirement, and rather that adapting their letter to comply, this 3 embassies have decided to stop issuing them... .

BTW TI never said it would refuse income letters from (the many) embassies (that continue to issue them).

[JLCrab]

I don't know about UK or Australia but the type of information as requested by Thai IMM on any affidavit would go against worldwide US Department of State notarial policy that they will not verify the accuracy or authenticity of any document presented to it in an Embassy or Consulate ex-USA.

Edited November 11, 2018 by JLCrab

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

TI may have remind embassies this requirement, and rather that adapting their letter to comply, this 3 embassies have decided to stop issuing them...

That would amount to perjury by a Consular official.

They can't state they've verified your income, when they can't.

 

The BE at least stated their reason for withdrawing the service, was so the letters weren't misinterpreted by Immigration.

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

TI may have remind embassies this requirement, and rather that adapting their letter to comply, this 3 embassies have decided to stop issuing them... .

The embassies have already stated they cannot verify the info provided for the letters, affidavits and statutory declarations due to their countries laws and regulations. Verifying would be checking with the source of the documents provided.

[onera1961]

25 minutes ago, mogandave said:

The income affidavits could be faked as well, yes?


Most people aren’t criminals and generally aren’t interested in participating in criminal activity.

Does a fence keep everyone out? No. Does it keep most people out? Yes.

That's why I am advocating money (65/40K per month without embassy letter) in a Thai bank. Is it fake-proof? May be not, but some body has to go to great length to fake it and it can be verified using Data Mining algorithms (Thailand 4.0)

Edited November 11, 2018 by onera1961

[Pattaya46]

10 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

// the type of information as requested by Thai IMM on any affidavit would go against worldwide US Department of State notarial policy //

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The embassies have already stated they cannot verify the info provided for the letters, affidavits and statutory declarations due to their countries laws and regulations. //

I don't know your laws but I can believe your embassies found a legal problem.

Now TI has made long ago rules that apply to ALL countries.

So do they have to modify these rules (or make some exceptions) because of a few countries who can't comply?

Do they even want to do something?

I don't have the answers...

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Pattaya46

[JLCrab]

My guess is that long ago the US Embassy informed Thai IMM that they could do nothing more on any income affidavit than to take the sworn oath and authenticate the signature of the applicant. As a matter of courtesy that was accepted these many years by Thai Imm. Thai IMM now says that is not acceptable but US Department of State stands on its notary policy and is in no position to do what Thai IMM now requires.

 

And here we are.

[p414]

For myself ,all the information I send to the British embassy could quickly and easily be verified.

The embassy charges a high fee for this 'service' which should easily cover the cost of verification

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

I don't know your laws but I can believe your embassies found a legal problem.

Now TI has made long ago rules that apply to ALL countries.

So do they have to modify these rules (or make some exceptions) because of a few countries who can't comply?

Do they even want to do something?

I don't have the answers...

 

Why should Thai Immigration change their laws to suit just 3 embassies? Why don't the embassies change their procedures to suit the Thai Immigration laws? It is easier for the embassies to verify your income than it is for Thai Immigration. I know that a lot of you will say "but they cannot do that because it breaches the privacy laws". That is a load of rubbish because all it takes is for you to give your permission for them to check whatever is needed. I would prefer to give my embassy the permission to check than to give it to any foreign country. It is a very simple thing for you to fill out your application for your letter of income and also fill out a release document which gives your embassy the right to verify your income. It is only those who have things to hide that would be against this system. The UK, USA or Australia would not change their immigration laws to suit people from other countries.

[Tanoshi]

3 minutes ago, p414 said:

For myself ,all the information I send to the British embassy could quickly and easily be verified.

The embassy charges a high fee for this 'service' which should easily cover the cost of verification

Please do inform us just how they can easily verify your information.

[Russell17au]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

Please do inform us just how they can easily verify your information.

You give your embassy the information of who and where your income is derived from. Whether it is a government pension, a private pension, investments, or wherever. When you fill out a form declaring that your income is derived from xxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxx, xxxxxxxxxx you must also give the contact details for that to be checked plus you fill out another form which you give the embassy permission to access your private information from these places.

[KiChakayan]

I am afraid this may be provocative to some, but I am more and more of the opinion that TI should implement a single simple rule based solely on a fixed term deposit, for the duration (not only 3 months before renewal) of the retiree's stay. This could mimic the M2H scheme, of maybe even the non O-X. The levels of deposits should be readjusted yearly based on inflation. This would have the benefit of having all the KISS requirement and yearly renewals could become a formality. 

[Pattaya46]

11 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

Why should Thai Immigration change their laws to suit just 3 embassies?

Because these are 3 of the biggest embassies (in term of income letters issued) and if nothing is done it will be a big mess in a few months in Immigration Offices...

I really hope for concerned people that a solution will be found, embassies side or TI side.

[Tanoshi]

6 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

That is a load of rubbish because all it takes is for you to give your permission for them to check whatever is needed. I would prefer to give my embassy the permission to check than to give it to any foreign country. It is a very simple thing for you to fill out your application for your letter of income and also fill out a release document which gives your embassy the right to verify your income.

That would require giving the Embassy Power of Attorney.

 

There are procedures in place already for you as an individual to authenticate a document and it's contents.

Last time I did it, 5 years ago, it cost £160. That was for one document. I have 3 separate letters regarding proof of income that would require verification.

 

The Embassy would have to outsource it to a qualified public Notary, so what sort of ball park figure would be prepared to pay for such a service from your Embassy.

[Lovethailandelite]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Because these are 3 of the biggest embassies (in term of income letters issued) and if nothing is done it will be a big mess in a few months in Immigration Offices...

I really hope for concerned people that a solution will be found, embassies side or TI side.

It absolutely will not be a big mess at all. You will either comply with what immigration requires or you will need to leave the country and obtain a visa that allows you to re-enter.
The solution is already there. You need to bring the funds in to Thailand and a Thai bank account.

[Lovethailandelite]

7 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

I am afraid this may be provocative to some, but I am more and more of the opinion that TI should implement a single simple rule based solely on a fixed term deposit, for the duration (not only 3 months before renewal) of the retiree's stay. This could mimic the M2H scheme, of maybe even the non O-X. The levels of deposits should be readjusted yearly based on inflation. This would have the benefit of having all the KISS requirement and yearly renewals could become a formality. 

Regarding your reference to the M2H scheme, you don't realise just how right you are and what is already being looked into. It could very much become a reality in the next 2-3 years.

[Russell17au]

2 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Because these are 3 of the biggest embassies (in term of income letters issued) and if nothing is done it will be a big mess in a few months in Immigration Offices...

I really hope for concerned people that a solution will be found, embassies side or TI side.

But it is not up to Thai Immigration to change their Immigration laws. It will not be a big mess in Immigration Offices at all. You know what is in the Thai Immigration laws and that is what you must do. If your embassy will not supply you with a letter of income/affidavit/stat dec then you must have the 400,000/800,000baht seasoned in the Thai bank account and a letter from the bank. That is the Thai Immigration Laws. It is only 3 embassies that are refusing to supply the letters of income, all other embassies are still providing this service. It is easier for the embassies to verify the incomes than it is for Thai Immigration. When you make application for your letter you must state the name and contact details and your number of where your income is from and you also fill out a form the releases your private information to the embassy for verification. It is easier to that at the embassy than it would be at the Immigration Offices

[Russell17au]

7 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

That would require giving the Embassy Power of Attorney.

 

There are procedures in place already for you as an individual to authenticate a document and it's contents.

Last time I did it, 5 years ago, it cost £160. That was for one document. I have 3 separate letters regarding proof of income that would require verification.

 

The Embassy would have to outsource it to a qualified public Notary, so what sort of ball park figure would be prepared to pay for such a service from your Embassy.

You DO NOT need to give the embassy Power of Attorney, all you need to do is sign a document that gives your permission to wherever you derive your income from to release that information to the embassy. I have done this many times and it only involves just the organizations that you nominate.