Am I in trouble? Non B extension not cancelled.

[CJansen1992]

Apologies for the wall of text, but it's a complex (I think) situation:

Situation is as follows: I have worked in Thailand for several years up until about 10 months ago, when I moved abroad for a while and sent my work permit to HR to cancel. As I was already abroad, they never cancelled my extension of stay because my passport was with me (I had a 2-year, multiple-entry extension of stay based on employment at the One Stop Service Center for Visa and Work Permit which is valid until later this year).
 

When I came back to Thailand again some months later, I assumed this extension of stay was not valid anymore and I would receive a 30-day visa-exemption stamp just like any other tourist would. However, the IO stamped me in on the extension of stay (that, as aforementioned, shows a validity until later this year). At that point, I stupidly assumed this was still 'valid', and flew in-and-out doing the same several other times after that without any problems. Dumb, I know. 

Now, my extension of stay expiry date is coming closer, and I want to apply for a new visa after it has expired (non-o dependant, based on my expat wife's employment) back in my home country (I'll leave TH a few days before expiry date). However, my wife's HR said I need to cancel this extension of stay first (even if I wait until after it expires) before I can ever apply for a new visa or extension of stay based on spouse dependancy again. I called the Thai embassy in my home country, the official there said they would likely be able to give me the non-o visa without problems – because the extension of stay is expired by that time. I've informed the wife's HR about this, but they said that while that might work,  I will ultimately get in trouble when applying for a new visa extension on the non-o visa. 

It's now too late to cancel my non-b extension of stay, as my work permit was cancelled a while ago already – I really don't know what to do. 

 

• My last entry back into Thailand (again, without any problems stamped in with my extension of stay) was a week ago. Would it make sense to "surrender" now, ask them to cancel the extension of stay (without a letter from employer) and would they count the "overstay" as a week – or would they check back ALL the days I have been in Thailand on this extension of stay that was actually invalid? (several different visits this year, probably a bit more than 3 months in total). 
• Or, should I not worry, just leave Thailand a few days before the 'valid until' date on my extension of stay is due, apply for a new (non-o dependant) visa in my home country? Would this 'reset' the wonky situation I am in right now?
• Or should I talk to a lawyer? 

 

I've been reading into this for days but can't seem to find a solution and it's costing me sleep! Am terrified of a blacklist, so hoping anyone here could advise. 

[elviajero]

9 hours ago, CJansen1992 said:

However, my wife's HR said I need to cancel this extension of stay first (even if I wait until after it expires) before I can ever apply for a new visa or extension of stay based on spouse dependancy again.

This is not correct. Just leave the country and the extension will expire when you’re out of the country. You would only need to cancel the extension if you were applying for a new extension without leaving the country.

 

You will have no problem getting a new visa in your home country or getting another extension from immigration in the future.

 

Your wife’s HR department are talking nonsense.

 

 

[CJansen1992]

Thanks elviajero – hope you are correct. They were talking about a 'new rule' regarding this, but couldn't find any information about it. 

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, CJansen1992 said:

Thanks elviajero – hope you are correct. They were talking about a 'new rule' regarding this, but couldn't find any information about it. 

I am. There is no “new rule”.

[Wilson Smith]

You will have to pay an overstay from when you wp was canceled until you cancel your old visa. The embassy will give you an O visa but when you go to extend they will see you did not cancel the visa. They will make you cancel the visa and pay the fine. All other overstay penalties apply so if your overstay is over a year you will be blacklist. Maybe something could be worked out but it is a big maybe.

[stevenl]

4 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

You will have to pay an overstay from when you wp was canceled until you cancel your old visa. The embassy will give you an O visa but when you go to extend they will see you did not cancel the visa. They will make you cancel the visa and pay the fine. All other overstay penalties apply so if your overstay is over a year you will be blacklist. Maybe something could be worked out but it is a big maybe.

And why do you think this?

[Wilson Smith]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

And why do you think this?

I know it because this is the current enforcement. This would include people who left the country about the same time of the wp canceled (without the visa being canceled) and the visa expiring while outside and then applying for a extenuation at a later time. In this case the person stayed here the whole time, his visa was based on employment which was canceled. I am sure I will hear some not trues here however he is going to have an issue and will need some help for sure.    

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

I know it because this is the current enforcement. This would include people who left the country about the same time of the wp canceled (without the visa being canceled) and the visa expiring while outside and then applying for a extenuation at a later time. In this case the person stayed here the whole time, his visa was based on employment which was canceled. I am sure I will hear some not trues here however he is going to have an issue and will need some help for sure.    

His stay was based on extension not visa.

[Wilson Smith]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

His stay was based on extension not visa.

I am sorry about terminology. His extension was suppose to be canceled and it wasn't and he stayed and would like to stay again. What I am saying it will catch up to him when attempts to apply for another extension whether his old extension has expired or not. Basically what his wife's HR is telling him.      

[CJansen1992]

Thanks. I understand the situation I'm in is a bit messed up. Really don't know what to do, because if I go to immigration now I technically have already "overstayed" a little more than 90 days. 
 

Would a lawyer be able to help? And if so, any recommendations for a good one?

Edited October 29, 2018 by CJansen1992

[Wilson Smith]

6 minutes ago, CJansen1992 said:

Thanks. I understand the situation I'm in is a bit messed up. Really don't know what to do, because if I go to immigration now I technically have already "overstayed" a little more than 90 days. 
 

Would a lawyer be able to help? And if so, any recommendations for a good one?

The best advice would be to go to immigration with your old company or if you have to alone and attempt to cancel the visa (need the cancel stamp). Pay the fine (20K and leave. If you wait longer there could the blacklist duration will get longer. If it is "just" a bit over 90 days perhaps they will cut you a break. Depending on that result you can re-enter.

[overherebc]

14 minutes ago, CJansen1992 said:

Thanks. I understand the situation I'm in is a bit messed up. Really don't know what to do, because if I go to immigration now I technically have already "overstayed" a little more than 90 days. 
 

Would a lawyer be able to help? And if so, any recommendations for a good one?

Don't go near a lawyer. It will cost you money time and grief. They know even less than your wife's HR. All HR deptartments when they don't know what's happening state 'it's a new rule'

Stay out until the extension expires and then start again.

Edited October 29, 2018 by overherebc

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, Wilson Smith said:

The best advice would be to go to immigration with your old company or if you have to alone and attempt to cancel the visa (need the cancel stamp). Pay the fine (20K and leave. If you wait longer there could the blacklist duration will get longer. If it is "just" a bit over 90 days perhaps they will cut you a break. Depending on that result you can re-enter.

As you said already, people will come here and say 'not true'.

Here is one, what you're saying is not true and you're causing panic for no reason.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, Wilson Smith said:

You will have to pay an overstay from when you wp was canceled until you cancel your old visa. The embassy will give you an O visa but when you go to extend they will see you did not cancel the visa. They will make you cancel the visa and pay the fine. All other overstay penalties apply so if your overstay is over a year you will be blacklist. Maybe something could be worked out but it is a big maybe.

Complete nonsense!

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, CJansen1992 said:

Thanks. I understand the situation I'm in is a bit messed up. Really don't know what to do, because if I go to immigration now I technically have already "overstayed" a little more than 90 days. 
 

Would a lawyer be able to help? And if so, any recommendations for a good one?

Do not employ a lawyer and do not go anywhere near immigration.

 

As you are aware you’re extension should have been cancelled. If you leave the country as planned the extension will expire when you’re out of the country and that is the end of your problem.

 

Immigration have no way of knowing your job/WP has ended. If you tell them now they will cancel the extension and you’ll have to leave the country. They could (unlikely) cancel it from the date your job/WP ended in which case you would be on overstay, have to pay 20K and potentially receive a ban.

 

Your best plan is to leave as planned, or before, and re-enter after the extension has expired.

 

[Wilson Smith]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

Do not employ a lawyer and do not go anywhere near immigration.

 

As you are aware you’re extension should have been cancelled. If you leave the country as planned the extension will expire when you’re out of the country and that is the end of your problem.

 

Immigration have no way of knowing your job/WP has ended. If you tell them now they will cancel the extension and you’ll have to leave the country. They could (unlikely) cancel it from the date your job/WP ended in which case you would be on overstay, have to pay 20K and potentially receive a ban.

 

Your best plan is to leave as planned, or before, and re-enter after the extension has expired.

 

I guess you take a chance like that and find out when you try to extend that they will not extend until there is a void stamp put on the old extension (valid or expired). Then when you try to void the stamp they make you pay 20K and blacklist you. I guess it is worth a shot if you are a gambling man.   

[ubonjoe]

4 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

I guess you take a chance like that and find out when you try to extend that they will not extend until there is a void stamp put on the old extension (valid or expired). Then when you try to void the stamp they make you pay 20K and blacklist you. I guess it is worth a shot if you are a gambling man.   

The only reports I have seen is when a person was trying to apply for another extension based upon working or teaching and the previous extension had not been formally canceled before leaving the country.

If a person has already left the country and they re-entered the country without using a re-entry permit that would void the extension and their would be no overstay since that person got a new permit to stay from a visa or visa exempt entry.

Only if a person stayed in the country without canceling the extension could there be an overstay fine when a person went to immigration to get something done.

[Wilson Smith]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The only reports I have seen is when a person was trying to apply for another extension based upon working or teaching and the previous extension had not been formally canceled before leaving the country.

If a person has already left the country and they re-entered the country without using a re-entry permit that would void the extension and their would be no overstay since that person got a new permit to stay from a visa or visa exempt entry.

Only if a person stayed in the country without canceling the extension could there be an overstay fine when a person went to immigration to get something done.

Well it sounds like that is what the person did. So he can try to re-enter without the reentry stamp but that does not cover the gap from when the person exited and the wp was canceled. My experience is that you cannot escape the gap. It will be discovered when you "try to get something done". To me you are skating on a blacklist that may only be able to escape by a payment and currently there are "No Tip" signs up.

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

My experience is that you cannot escape the gap. It will be discovered when you "try to get something done". To me you are skating on a blacklist that may only be able to escape by a payment and currently there are "No Tip" signs up.

The only way a person could be fined for an overstay would be if they had a permit to say from an entry or extension of stay that had already expired. Leaving the the country voids out any previous permit to stay.

[Wilson Smith]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The only way a person could be fined for an overstay would be if they had a permit to say from an entry or extension of stay that had already expired. Leaving the the country voids out any previous permit to stay.

Ubonjoe I read all of your advice because I know you are very actuate with all. This person stated his wp was canceled 3 months ago and he has been living in Thailand on this extension.  My experience this period will catch up with him if he tries to extend another visa whether the old extension expires or not. I believe his wife's HR is advising him the same.  

[Wilson Smith]

15 hours ago, stevenl said:

As you said already, people will come here and say 'not true'.

Here is one, what you're saying is not true and you're causing panic for no reason.

I am saying the same as his wife's HR is saying. The HR probably spoke their visa agency and he was told what is being enforced now. Perhaps in the past this was not enforced this way. In the past the extension would expire and that would be it but now it is not like that. If you look at it at face value it is an overstay. The visa is automatically canceled when the wp is canceled however it is up to the person or company to get the void stamp on the extension from immigration and leave the country. I am just stating what I am seeing enforced now.  

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

This person stated his wp was canceled 3 months ago and he has been living in Thailand on this extension.  My experience this period will catch up with him if he tries to extend another visa whether the old extension expires or not.

I was replying in general terms not specifically to the OP. 

Mostly it was in response to you stating if can still can happen after a person has left the country and entered to get new permit to stay (not using a re-entry permit).

If somebody goes to immigration with a permit to stay that should of been canceled already there would be a problem unless they could present a termination letter from an employer dated after or for the date they go to immigration.

[GaryPustynskiy]

A colleague of mine got into exactly the same situation (except he needed to apply for a Non-B, not Non-O): his old WP and Non-B extension wasn't properly cancelled, he got into the country 1.5 years later, even told the immigration officer that he would probably get the tourist visa but just got his extension stamped. I started preparing new set of employment docs for him and the law firm we work with said he's basically f****d with a 1.5 year overstay if we proceed.
Long story short: our layer arranged a visa tour in Vientiane for him, called her "guy" in a Vientiane Consulate so his extension was cancelled while he were there and he got his mint fresh Non-B, no overstay fines, no records, all perfectly clear. Got his WP, extension etc.
In case of a need for a Non-O it would go exactly the same way I suppose.
Of course it's already "Do not employ a lawyer" in this tread but will gladly PM you the contacts if you like.

Edited October 30, 2018 by GaryPustynskiy

[sussex]

Perhaps the OP can refer to this post where the person in question had the same problem, and got their ex-employer to arrange the necessary paperwork.

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1063909-apply-for-new-non-b-extension-but-already-have-an-old-not-cancelled-expired-extension/