Expats need to organize in face of Embassies discontinuance of income verification letters

[007 RED]

6 hours ago, Spidey said:

It's already been posted early on in one of the other threads. I don't have photoshop or know how to use it so couldn't delete personal information (name, passport number etc.). However, I can assure you that it is virtually identical to the Netherlands format except it has, in recent years, had the caveat added,

 

"The service provided by the British Embassy, Bangkok should not be taken as to certify that this document is binding in law (whether under UK law or otherwise). Individuals are advised to seek independent legal advice as to the validity of this document under the relevant law."

FYI..... As you will see from my earlier post the caveat at the bottom of the BE letter has been there since August 2014.  After having originally posted this in another thread, another TV member responded by stating that he has a copy of the BE letter dated back in 2010 which had the same caveat, so it's been around for quite some time and is nothing new

[Pattaya46]

3 minutes ago, pookiki said:

One can only wonder why the Netherlands and other embassies who issue similar letter perceive that there is no problem with the continued issuance and acceptance of such letters by Thai Immigration officials.

Maybe because they didn't put these 3 lines at the bottom of the letter... 

[JLCrab]

27 minutes ago, pookiki said:

I would ask you to give space to those individuals who actually believe they can have an impact on the system - whether it be from our embassies or Thai Immigration.

Well in addition to the above, maybe you should go here where some of the decisions regarding suggestions as in the template letter will actually be made (with a 5000 character limit for some of the long-winded types):

 

https://register.state.gov/contactus/contactusform

 

 

[pookiki]

6 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Well in addition to the above, maybe you should go here where some of the decisions regarding suggestions as in the template letter will actually be made (with a 5000 character limit for some of the long-winded types):

 

https://register.state.gov/contactus/contactusform

 

 

My sample letter is less than 4,000 characters and I just sent it to the State Department using the link you provided. Thank you very much for your suggestion. I will also send a hard copy of my letter to Tim Scherer, Counsel General at the US Embassy in Bangkok.

[cleverman]

Never before in the field of immigrant conflict has so much been written by so many about so little. 

[JLCrab]

7 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Thank you very much for your suggestion.

OK.

[robblok]

28 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Thank you for providing this.  As you said, it is almost identical to the letter issued by the Netherlands Embassy to its citizens.  One can only wonder why the Netherlands and other embassies who issue similar letter perceive that there is no problem with the continued issuance and acceptance of such letters by Thai Immigration officials.  Did the US, UK, and Australia do something offensive to Thai Immigration officials in May that resulted in this problem?

Because the Dutch goverment does reserve the right to check the documents and will do so at times. If you read their info they say they can check it with the Tax office. 

 

Also the Dutch tax office can give you a income statement that can be used by the embassy as verification (hard to fake). All you need to do is file taxes in the Netherlands and you can get such a statement that can be used by the embassy. They then can check this. (also mentioned in their addendum)

 

So the difference is that the Dutch embassy at least can check the data so their statement is far more valid then unchecked ones. 

 

 

[pookiki]

14 minutes ago, cleverman said:

Never before in the field of immigrant conflict has so much been written by so many about so little. 

Ain't the internet wonderful??

[pookiki]

19 minutes ago, robblok said:

Because the Dutch goverment does reserve the right to check the documents and will do so at times. If you read their info they say they can check it with the Tax office. 

 

Also the Dutch tax office can give you a income statement that can be used by the embassy as verification (hard to fake). All you need to do is file taxes in the Netherlands and you can get such a statement that can be used by the embassy. They then can check this. (also mentioned in their addendum)

 

So the difference is that the Dutch embassy at least can check the data so their statement is far more valid then unchecked ones. 

 

 

Thanks for the info Robblok.  Nice not to be talking about floods for a change. ???? You know, I believe that the information that US, UK, and Australian citizens could provide as it specifically relates to tax matters would be hard to fake as well. In the US Form 1099s and W-2s are routinely issued to show income. Social Security sends out an annual form showing a person's monthly benefits. Something is going on between Thai Immigration and the US, UK, and Australian embassies to which we are not privy.  Be that as it may, I still believe that the embassies that decided to stop the issuance of income verification letters/affidavits can resume discussions with Thai Immigration and find workable solutions.  But it is up to our respective embassies to make the move.  I hope they will decide to try to resolve this issue instead of playing hardball with their own constituents. We deserve to be treated better.

Edited November 9, 2018 by pookiki
grammar

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, pookiki said:

Thanks for the info Robblok.  Nice not to be talking about floods for a change. You know, I believe that the information that US, UK, and Australian citizens could provide as it specifically relates to tax matters would be hard to fake as well. In the US Form 1099s and W-2s are routinely issued to show income. Social Security sends out an annual form showing a person's monthly benefits. Something is going on between Thai Immigration and the US, UK, and Australian embassies to which we are not privy.  Be that as it may, I still believe that the embassies that decided to stop the issuance of income verification letters/affidavits can resume discussions with Thai Immigration and find workable solutions.  But it is up to our respective embassies to make the move.  I hope they will decide to try to resolve this issue instead of playing hardball with their own constituents. We deserve to be treated better.

I would say if they really want to solve this problem they should just ask for tax forms.. as you say they are hard to fake and easy to check. I mean they could call the tax office and just ask i got Mr A here his tax for says amount xxxxx is this correct ? This would verify it and not intrude on privacy IMHO (as they only ask for a verification not ask for amounts). It would mean that you would have to file taxes in your home country of course its a hurdle but it would be better then just canceling it all.

 

The previous paragraph is what the Dutch Embassy can do with those tax declarations. I work a lot with the Dutch tax office so i know how the system works.  I don't see why they can't do that for other countries too. Maybe you have to wave some rights so they can check it.

 

But it would be extra work for the embassy, maybe that is the problem. I said it before looks like they just went for the easy way out. 

 

I have criticized the system that was in place a number of times as it did not check anything and fraud would not be punished (realistically as they did not check). In the Dutch embassy you always had to bring papers with you to prove your claims.. it never had the .. i swear and done option. I think people finally saw the weaknesses and took the easy way out instead of amending the process.

[soalbundy]

6 hours ago, Ctkong said:

Embassy issue the letter based upon your provided evidence and verbal affirmation. They can not verify if it is true or not. Evidence can be forged overseas .... and until the money is IN THE THAI BANK, no amount of swearing is going to convince the immigration that you are kosher. So thai immigration play it safe by requesting either the money banked in monthly into Thai bank meaning real money is being banked in OR having the required annual amount in the bank ( again real money is in the bank) . 

They aren't requesting anything new yet, they want the usual letter CERTIFYING income according to documents shown, in fact they are still accepting affidavits without protesting and would continue to do so without all this song and dance, it's the Thai way. You must wear a crash helmet to ride a motorbike as well, and have a driving license, oh, and prostitution is illegal as well 555555555

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, wgdanson said:

Except for those nationalities who's embassy will no longer issue the letter.

we hope they will change their minds and remember that we are not in Finland but in Thailand where there are 11 different ways of saying "I'' and people join the police force to make real money

[sniggie]

2 hours ago, howiem said:

I called Immigration at CW yesterday and was told that letters dated 1 Jan 2019 or later would not be accepted. May not be true at every immigration office.

Shouldn't be a problem for Brits as there should be no letters beyond 2018 (or so they say).  But for Aussies they should be able to get a letter right up to 7th January. And what about all other nationalities? 

[jimn]

59 minutes ago, robblok said:

I would say if they really want to solve this problem they should just ask for tax forms.. as you say they are hard to fake and easy to check. I mean they could call the tax office and just ask i got Mr A here his tax for says amount xxxxx is this correct ? This would verify it and not intrude on privacy IMHO (as they only ask for a verification not ask for amounts). It would mean that you would have to file taxes in your home country of course its a hurdle but it would be better then just canceling it all.

 

The previous paragraph is what the Dutch Embassy can do with those tax declarations. I work a lot with the Dutch tax office so i know how the system works.  I don't see why they can't do that for other countries too. Maybe you have to wave some rights so they can check it.

 

But it would be extra work for the embassy, maybe that is the problem. I said it before looks like they just went for the easy way out. 

 

I have criticized the system that was in place a number of times as it did not check anything and fraud would not be punished (realistically as they did not check). In the Dutch embassy you always had to bring papers with you to prove your claims.. it never had the .. i swear and done option. I think people finally saw the weaknesses and took the easy way out instead of amending the process.

Its all Double Dutch to me

[JLCrab]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

I would say if they really want to solve this problem they should just ask for tax forms.. as you say they are hard to fake and easy to check.

What if you have a good CPA accountant and you don't pay any taxes?

 

New York Times: Kushner likely paid almost no federal income taxes ...

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/13/politics/jared-kushner-taxes/index.html

 

Oct 14, 2018 - Jared Kushner, whose net worth is nearly $324 million, appears to have paid almost no income taxes from 2009 to 2016, 

Edited November 9, 2018 by JLCrab

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, jimn said:

Its all Double Dutch to me

a lot of work for the translation bureaus and for some languages probably impossible, know any Thais who speak icelandic or Turkish or civil service English / German come to think of it.

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

New York Times: Kushner likely paid almost no federal income taxes ...

 

Well, there's no chance of him getting a visa then.

[Ebumbu]

On 11/7/2018 at 5:32 PM, Peterw42 said:

What is FCCT ?

 

 

That's what we all are without an embassy letter. ????

[Lovethailandelite]

1 hour ago, pookiki said:

Thanks for the info Robblok.  Nice not to be talking about floods for a change. ???? You know, I believe that the information that US, UK, and Australian citizens could provide as it specifically relates to tax matters would be hard to fake as well. In the US Form 1099s and W-2s are routinely issued to show income. Social Security sends out an annual form showing a person's monthly benefits. Something is going on between Thai Immigration and the US, UK, and Australian embassies to which we are not privy.  Be that as it may, I still believe that the embassies that decided to stop the issuance of income verification letters/affidavits can resume discussions with Thai Immigration and find workable solutions.  But it is up to our respective embassies to make the move.  I hope they will decide to try to resolve this issue instead of playing hardball with their own constituents. We deserve to be treated better.

Great idea. Open up another can of worms regarding income entering Thailand received in the same fiscal tax year. I am sure people will be delighted when they are taxed on there income here too. I suggest you learn a little before you suggest the authorities getting involved with income tax statements.
You people simply have no idea when and where to stop.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, sniggie said:

Shouldn't be a problem for Brits as there should be no letters beyond 2018 (or so they say).  But for Aussies they should be able to get a letter right up to 7th January. And what about all other nationalities? 

Actually- if they will accept letters - as long as they accept them for 6 months from the issue date on the document- it doesn't matter. At some point the letters from the UK/US/AUS will cease to be issued and the others will continue for  6 months  validity once they are issued.  The problem will be a 2 tier system- the US/UK/AUS will be treated one way and the rest another way.  This is going to create some problems as fair and equitable treatment.  Thai Imm then may decide to do away with all income letters which will make a new whole group of nationalities angry. 

IMHO- the best way is to go back to the letters for everyone- with the proviso you may have to show proof to Thai Imm and then they ask for it as needed and go after those who have lied by sending them to court.

 

The US/UK/AUS should form a joint committee to negotiate with Thai Imm and work out an acceptable wording on the letters.  If you read through all the issues presented by changing the system it will be chaotic and in the end solve nothing.  There is no way to 100% prove  what allegedly Thai Imm is asking to prove- so you have to start with the premise most people are honest and work out ways to detect those who are not. You set a standard profile and  then ask those who fall outside the profile certain questions that you may not ask the others.

 or certain documents you may not ask the others to show. Patterns will form and everyone will become aware that if lying detection is probable.  Is it foolproof- No- but nothing is not even showing 65K in a Thai Bank every month or 800K.

[totally thaied up]

After my visit to Chiang Mai Immigration this week, talking to two different IO and then speaking to our agent, showing income may be a thing of the past. I just got told outright to use 800/400K method. I tried several ways to explain myself but just got told 800/400K. For me, until I see it come down from the top, it may just be speculation but things may be changing. Until I see a new Police Order, it should be followed to the word but we are seeing 'talk' from Phuket and Hua Hin of what they are suggesting they require. All subjected rumor.  Until next year comes, we are not really going to know what is going to happen unless some uniform guidance comes down from the top but I cannot see that happening.

 

Each Immigration Office as we know is very different. 

 

I could, but I would not want to show anyone due to privacy concerns, my families income via a tax return. I am all for security. Don't you see the amount of security in place to protect our privacy in Australia and you are all willing to give up these concerns because you're not willing to put money up? In Australia, our privacy concerns are taken very seriously. I would not like Immigration or the Australian Embassy to dig around into my privacy. I think a lot of people are like that.

 

I take my family privacy seriously. I have my reasons. We have been defrauded before and until you have it happen to you, I can tell you from experience, it is not a very nice matter.

 

I could see this all crashing and burning a long time ago and I do not blame the Embassies for any of this. Thai Immigration is just now outlining what they want on a system that was flawed. Out of all my friends, maybe one or two might leave but they have been cheating the system for 10 years and use to laugh out about how easy it was to game the system. As far as I am concerned, my privacy comes first before giving it out to anyone. I would not like my Embassy digging around my families privacy. Not that we do have anything to hide but for the fact, our income is just that, private. 

 

I can see just in the future 800/400K method being used. It is easy to confirm and the IO just needs to check it off that is has been seasoned. It is a very cheap way of staying in a Country with this much infrastructure in South East Asia. The Embassies did not throw us under a bus - those that have been cheating have and Thai Immigration now is just stating what it wants.  I realistically cannot see immigration trying to count everyone's pennies and neither is the job for the Embassies as well to be an accountant.

 

Check Bank book and that is it. Other Countries demand a lot more. Yes, there are other Countries that demand a lot less but if you say, Philippines, Cambodia or Vietnam, they do not have Thailands infrastructure and that infrastructure is why I chose Thailand years ago.

 

Personally, for years I have thought it is laughable that a letter would work. No letter is not going to cut this. Only cash coming in from a bank will. I may be wrong, but I predict this will be the way of the future. People will cry about this but as others have suggested, in the end, they will comply if they want to stay.

[Lovethailandelite]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- if they will accept letters - as long as they accept them for 6 months from the issue date on the document- it doesn't matter. At some point the letters from the UK/US/AUS will cease to be issued and the others will continue for  6 months  validity once they are issued.  The problem will be a 2 tier system- the US/UK/AUS will be treated one way and the rest another way.  This is going to create some problems as fair and equitable treatment.  Thai Imm then may decide to do away with all income letters which will make a new whole group of nationalities angry. 

IMHO- the best way is to go back to the letters for everyone- with the proviso you may have to show proof to Thai Imm and then they ask for it as needed and go after those who have lied by sending them to court.

 

The US/UK/AUS should form a joint committee to negotiate with Thai Imm and work out an acceptable wording on the letters.  If you read through all the issues presented by changing the system it will be chaotic and in the end solve nothing.  There is no way to 100% prove  what allegedly Thai Imm is asking to prove- so you have to start with the premise most people are honest and work out ways to detect those who are not. You set a standard profile and  then ask those who fall outside the profile certain questions that you may not ask the others.

 or certain documents you may not ask the others to show. Patterns will form and everyone will become aware that if lying detection is probable.  Is it foolproof- No- but nothing is not even showing 65K in a Thai Bank every month or 800K.

I have read a statement today that CW will NOT be accepting income letters issued AFTER the 1st January.
Again, so it's clear ISSUED AFTER 1st January, not ISSUED BEFORE.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Lovethailandelite said:

I have read a statement today that CW will NOT be accepting income letters issued AFTER the 1st January.
Again, so it's clear ISSUED AFTER 1st January, not ISSUED BEFORE.

CW ?

[robblok]

27 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

What if you have a good CPA accountant and you don't pay any taxes?

 

New York Times: Kushner likely paid almost no federal income taxes ...

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/13/politics/jared-kushner-taxes/index.html

 

Oct 14, 2018 - Jared Kushner, whose net worth is nearly $324 million, appears to have paid almost no income taxes from 2009 to 2016, 

Your CPA accountant would file tax so your income is registered. Its not about paying taxes but filing them. So even if you don't pay taxes you still file your income. So it can be used.

[pookiki]

2 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

I have read a statement today that CW will NOT be accepting income letters issued AFTER the 1st January.
Again, so it's clear ISSUED AFTER 1st January, not ISSUED BEFORE.

From all embassies?  Could you please provide a source?

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

Your CPA accountant would file tax so your income is registered. Its not about paying taxes but filing them. So even if you don't pay taxes you still file your income. So it can be used.

I don't pay tax anywhere, nor do I need to file a tax report

[Lovethailandelite]

Just now, pookiki said:

From all embassies?  Could you please provide a source?

To be clear, It never referenced ANY Embassy. No, impossible to provide a source.

[Thaidream]

6 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

I have read a statement today that CW will NOT be accepting income letters issued AFTER the 1st January.
Again, so it's clear ISSUED AFTER 1st January, not ISSUED BEFORE.

It is clear for the citizens of the UK/US/ AUS but it  becomes unclear for  citizens of other countries who will continue to issue the letters because they believe they are fulfilling what Thai Imm wants.  That is unfair to those citizens. No other Embassy/Consulate has indicated they are stopping the letters except the 3- in fact, some have reaffirmed they are not going to stop issuing them.

 

It is obvious to me and many others on this forum that the decision made by the 3 Embassies were not thought out well enough and  that somewhere along the line - to quote an old movie line- 'a failure to communicate'.  It might be wise for the 3 Embassies to consider a  re-negotiation  with some give and take.  i was under the  impression that  foreign diplomats are just that = people skilled in negotiation.  That's  how serious issues  are solved and become non issues.  This may seem like a non issue to Embassy staffers but to the Expat community in Thailand this decision has caused an uproar that will not  be stifled.   People will comply but the  balance of norm has been altered and that is not good for anyone.

[Peasandmash]

--- "I do not want to put 800k in a thai bank however, too many horror stories over the years."---

More bs... I've never heard of a thai bank taking some farang's 800k bank deposit.

What you should be fearful of is that very soon the deposit requirement will go up to 1 million baht.

The good news is, that those who currently have 800K on in a thai bank will be "grandfathered in". and meet the new requirement. 

Enjoy Vietnam

[robblok]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I don't pay tax anywhere, nor do I need to file a tax report

But you COULD file taxes, i often file taxes for clients that don't have to pay tax (lack of income / high deductions). You can always file taxes and it will then show your income and tax already paid (withholding tax is enough to cover it). So you file, and don't have to pay taxes but your income is thuis in the system and checked by the tax office and after that is processed you can ask for a statement from that. 

 

Would be perfect for an embassy then they only have one contact point.. the tax office. fullproof check.