FYI - U.S. Consulate Chiang Mai town hall meeting November 20th Chiang Mai University

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I sent both ACS offices an email asking about:

1. webcasting the event. 2. providing a full transcript. 3. getting Thai Immigration to make a public statement.

 

I got only a form letter email response back, and nothing substantive re the questions I had raised with them.

 

NON-RESPONSE response.

 

Can't tell you how "glad" I am having these folks here representing my interests... (cough, cough....) 

 

[Suradit69]

On 11/18/2018 at 8:24 AM, kalidescopemind said:

the embassy can't adequately determine real bank statements from fraudulent ones.  The move will force Thailand to come up with a new idea for their proof of income requirements.   You could get a notarized letter from the Bank,

 

The requirement has always been a proof of income. not foreign bank statements. If embassies were going to prove anything it would have been that Social Security (or whoever) was paying you $xxxx per month, which wouldn't really be proved simply by showing recent activity on a monthly bank statement.

 

Quote

but that won't prove there is any money in the account by the time it is submitted for review. 

And again we're talking about income for the income method, not the balance in your account back home last month.

 

Quote

The move will force Thailand to come up with a new idea for their proof of income requirements.

 

I doubt Thailand will feel forced to come up with a new idea regarding income. Most likely it will settle on evidence of proof of foreign sourced deposits in your Thai bank account or the lump sum in your account for some months before the application for an extension. That has nothing to do with income since it doesn't really demonstrate the source of the income.

 

Quote

You could get a notarized letter from the Bank,

No, that's never been acceptable and banks aren't your source of income unless they are the ones paying you your retirement income.

 

Notarizing something simply means the notary has witnessed you signing a document. It doesn't imply anything about the information in the document and I doubt anyone would want to fly to their home country justto get a bank statement notarized after signing it.

 

You might want to read through the many threads discussing the subject to enlighten yourself on the problem and the possible solutions.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Suradit69

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Can't tell you how "glad" I am having these folks here representing my interests... (cough, cough....) 

It's always tough when you realize that the government isn't your nanny.

 

For most people hearing that "the government wants to help you"  is more frightening than reassuring.

[bubba]

So did anyone attend? If so, could you post a summary of what was discussed regarding any clarification of Thai Immigration policy pertaining to income verification?

 

That would be of interest to many here and not just Americans.

[joevanwyck]

Did anybody attend this meeting in Chiang Mai?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

So did anyone attend? If so, could you post a summary of what was discussed regarding any clarification of Thai Immigration policy pertaining to income verification?

 

That would be of interest to many here and not just Americans.

 

Was wondering the same!  Hours have passed, and haven't seen any follow-up mention here as yet!

[mfd101]

Perhaps they've all retired to the pub and are currently falling off their barstools ...

[PFV]

I attended the Chiang Mai conference this afternoon. I didn’t take notes, so what follows is just my take-away from the event.

The meeting started with introductions of local Chiang Mai consulate personnel and a guest speaker/expert from the Bangkok embassy who led the presentation.

The meeting was followed by a lengthy Q&A session.

1.      The decision to stop offering income affidavits was made by the State Department in Washington after contacts with Thai Foreign Ministry and Immigration Officials who were unaware of, or unprepared to recognize, the limitations of the income affidavit, despite the disclaimer.

2.      There have been contacts at the highest level between the Embassy and Thai Immigration. These contacts will be ongoing at the local level. Earlier today, they met with Chiang Mai Immigration Police Division 5 to go over the upcoming suspension of the affidavit and related issues. Tomorrow they will be in Phuket to talk to Phuket Immigration.

3.      Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

4.      Embassy income-verification letters will no longer be required.

5.      Concerning proof of income, the Embassy and CM Consulate will be conducting training sessions to explain the various forms of retirement income US retirees depend on, which are quite different from European national pension systems Thai Immigration is used to.

6.      One interesting observation was that they (Thai Immigration) had great difficulty in understanding the non-monthly nature of some income streams that they find unsettling.

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

8.      Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

9.      The Q&A session raised many of the issues discussed in these forums. Several questions concerning specific cases were answered by attendees with hands-on experience since the Embassy/Consular officials lack said knowledge.

 

That is all I can remember off the top of my head, I am certain that others will chime in to fill the many gaps.

[Thaidream]

The US Embassy is still issuing  letters- am I safe to assume that Thai Imm will still accept them as they have in the past for 6 months hence as that is what the Embassy has informed us 

 

Thank you for your report.

[mfd101]

Thank you to PFV. Reasonably enlightening for the anxious thousands of us.

 

4. is fine. 5 & 6 are disturbing - they show how ill-trained the Immigration officers are. 7 is about where we've mostly been & still are. 8 is a key point for many of us but obviously still up in the air.

[BoBoTheClown]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The US Embassy is still issuing  letters- am I safe to assume that Thai Imm will still accept them as they have in the past for 6 months hence as that is what the Embassy has informed us 

 

Thank you for your report.

Yes, but if you live in Chiang Mai you must still show proof of income to TI. The letter alone will not grant you a visa. 

[joevanwyck]

15 minutes ago, PFV said:

I attended the Chiang Mai conference this afternoon. I didn’t take notes, so what follows is just my take-away from the event.

The meeting started with introductions of local Chiang Mai consulate personnel and a guest speaker/expert from the Bangkok embassy who led the presentation.

The meeting was followed by a lengthy Q&A session.

1.      The decision to stop offering income affidavits was made by the State Department in Washington after contacts with Thai Foreign Ministry and Immigration Officials who were unaware of, or unprepared to recognize, the limitations of the income affidavit, despite the disclaimer.

2.      There have been contacts at the highest level between the Embassy and Thai Immigration. These contacts will be ongoing at the local level. Earlier today, they met with Chiang Mai Immigration Police Division 5 to go over the upcoming suspension of the affidavit and related issues. Tomorrow they will be in Phuket to talk to Phuket Immigration.

3.      Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

4.      Embassy income-verification letters will no longer be required.

5.      Concerning proof of income, the Embassy and CM Consulate will be conducting training sessions to explain the various forms of retirement income US retirees depend on, which are quite different from European national pension systems Thai Immigration is used to.

6.      One interesting observation was that they (Thai Immigration) had great difficulty in understanding the non-monthly nature of some income streams that they find unsettling.

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

8.      Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

9.      The Q&A session raised many of the issues discussed in these forums. Several questions concerning specific cases were answered by attendees with hands-on experience since the Embassy/Consular officials lack said knowledge.

 

That is all I can remember off the top of my head, I am certain that others will chime in to fill the many gaps.

Thank You very much for your report.

[rumak]

20 minutes ago, PFV said:

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

aha...........that really says it all, doesn't it ?   Try going into TI and asking what their guidelines re: income verification are (in writing would be nice).   Anything else anyone (even the us govt) says will be irrelevant.

Reports of people doing extensions with other than the deposit method (800k or 400k) in the following days/weeks/months will shed some light on the ""guidelines".  Actual and factual experiences will be the

only real way to know.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, PFV said:

Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

If you're applying for an extension in the latter part of the year any 1099 you have will be clearly dated for the previous year. So, if you go in to apply for an extension in October 2019, for example,  and hand over a 1099 for the 2018 tax year, I doubt it will satisfy most immigrations officers contemplating giving you an extension that will run well into 2020 considering that they would only accept income letters from embassies 6 months old or less.

 

I agree with the embassy officer that, from the point of view of immigrations, evidence of monthly deposits into a Thai bank of Baht40,000 or Baht 65,000 will offer the path of least resistance, or least complication anyway, although that doesn't necessarily  represent income. Of course the Baht 400,000 or Baht 800,000 sitting in a Thai bank will undoubtedly prove the most popular option for immigrations officers who need to wade through all your paper work.

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, BoBoTheClown said:

The letter alone will not grant you a visa. 

And immigrations officers will not grant you a visa in any event since you would be applying for an extension of stay.

[bubba]

Quote

.      Concerning proof of income, the Embassy and CM Consulate will be conducting training sessions to explain the various forms of retirement income US retirees depend on, which are quite different from European national pension systems Thai Immigration is used to.

 

For those of us who are younger than retirement pension age (i.e. American Social Security benefits), I hope they can also explain to immigration other forms of income, such as capital gains and dividend income from investment portfolios.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, PFV said:

I attended the Chiang Mai conference this afternoon. I didn’t take notes, so what follows is just my take-away from the event.

The meeting started with introductions of local Chiang Mai consulate personnel and a guest speaker/expert from the Bangkok embassy who led the presentation.

The meeting was followed by a lengthy Q&A session.

1.      The decision to stop offering income affidavits was made by the State Department in Washington after contacts with Thai Foreign Ministry and Immigration Officials who were unaware of, or unprepared to recognize, the limitations of the income affidavit, despite the disclaimer.

2.      There have been contacts at the highest level between the Embassy and Thai Immigration. These contacts will be ongoing at the local level. Earlier today, they met with Chiang Mai Immigration Police Division 5 to go over the upcoming suspension of the affidavit and related issues. Tomorrow they will be in Phuket to talk to Phuket Immigration.

3.      Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

4.      Embassy income-verification letters will no longer be required.

5.      Concerning proof of income, the Embassy and CM Consulate will be conducting training sessions to explain the various forms of retirement income US retirees depend on, which are quite different from European national pension systems Thai Immigration is used to.

6.      One interesting observation was that they (Thai Immigration) had great difficulty in understanding the non-monthly nature of some income streams that they find unsettling.

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

8.      Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

9.      The Q&A session raised many of the issues discussed in these forums. Several questions concerning specific cases were answered by attendees with hands-on experience since the Embassy/Consular officials lack said knowledge.

 

That is all I can remember off the top of my head, I am certain that others will chime in to fill the many gaps.

 

Thanks for the report, as others have mentioned above.

 

All I can say for starters is, the thrust of the above remarks, if accurate, is a fair bit different (broader and more inclusive) that the original Embassy statement of the replacement monthly income method going to be only monthly deposits into a Thai bank account.

 

Accepting U.S. tax forms including 1099s? OK to be paid into a foreign bank?  Sure wish I could find any evidence thus far that Immigration is willing to go there.

 

As for...

 

Quote

Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

 

Just wondering who exactly expressed that particular view?  It would be nice if it becomes true, but in the weeks since the original Embassy announcement, I've seen zero evidence of that supposed eagerness and understanding coming from Thai Immigration.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[rumak]

6 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Quote

Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

people believing these types of statements are the same ones that march off to the polls to vote for

the politicians who always say they are going to change the way things are .   

TI in Chiangmai only got worse and worse over the years......but BJ came here and within a week magically 

everything was better.  Time will tell if that will last, but just shows it can be done.

[joevanwyck]

9 hours ago, rumak said:

aha...........that really says it all, doesn't it ?   Try going into TI and asking what their guidelines re: income verification are (in writing would be nice).   Anything else anyone (even the us govt) says will be irrelevant.

Reports of people doing extensions with other than the deposit method (800k or 400k) in the following days/weeks/months will shed some light on the ""guidelines".  Actual and factual experiences will be the

only real way to know.

Very good point.

[JackThompson]

14 hours ago, PFV said:

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

So, from a standard-letter which works everywhere, to the "local office rules" system.  Ugh!

 

14 hours ago, PFV said:

8.      Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

If they will accept foreign money xfers to a Thai bank stand-alone - fine.  But explaining an IRS 1040 with all its associated forms, plus business-records showing receipts for the income reflected, doesn't seem remotely probable.  I just imagine the conversation, "No, the 'adjusted-gross-income' used to determine tax-liability includes deductions (including standard, not itemized) which do not reflect any actual reduction to my gross or net income."

 

12 hours ago, bubba said:

For those of us who are younger than retirement pension age (i.e. American Social Security benefits), I hope they can also explain to immigration other forms of income, such as capital gains and dividend income from investment portfolios.

Ditto - as per complex tax-forms - doesn't seem remotely probable.  I think our only hope is that these get a cursory-glance, provided the bank-letter shows the min-income being transferred into Thailand.

 

I sure hope the Non-O-ME Visa sticks around awhile (for us married to a Thai folks) - or the only remaining option will be paying some agent down in Pattaya or Bangkok to buy our extensions using faked bank-money - even though we actually meet the written financial-qualifications.  I believe that outcome was the underlying motivation for this change.

[mfd101]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I just imagine the conversation, "No, the 'adjusted-gross-income' used to determine tax-liability includes deductions (including standard, not itemized) which do not reflect any actual reduction to my gross or net income."

I already had a [simplified] conversation along those lines at Kap Choeng on 10 Oct. I had [helpfully but stupidly] included my Oz federal superannuation doco, which shows FORTNIGHTLY gross & net income. (Most people in Oz are paid fortnightly.) So I showed the annual (x 26) & then the monthly (÷ 12). And oh the glazed look I got as I sweetly explained it all ...

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I think our only hope is that these get a cursory-glance, provided the bank-letter shows the min-income being transferred into Thailand.

Yes, I think the new 'Embassy income letter' will be the 'Bank balances & incoming letter'. The rest will be just bumpf we have to cart along to look good but they won't do more than pretend to glance at it.

[bubba]

Quote

Ditto - as per complex tax-forms - doesn't seem remotely probable.  I think our only hope is that these get a cursory-glance, provided the bank-letter shows the min-income being transferred into Thailand.

 

Quote

I think the new 'Embassy income letter' will be the 'Bank balances & incoming letter'.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the requirement for income does not require funds being transferred into Thailand. 

[mfd101]

9 minutes ago, bubba said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the requirement for income does not require funds being transferred into Thailand. 

It would be surprising if that were not the quid pro quo for the loss of the Embassy letters. If not immediately, then down the track just a little bit ... Meantime, we should be preparing.

[Sheryl]

15 hours ago, PFV said:

..... However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

I suspect this will indeed be the case, simply because it is simple and understandable for all IOs. Thai bank statements are something they know how to read.  Even if central level were to allow it, I cannot imagine most local IOs sorting through a multitude of different documents from different countries in different languages and formats to figure out what someone's income is.  Just my opinion, I have no special inside knowledge.

 

Whether they will still allow the combined method and whether they will allow for flunctuating monthly amounts if they average out to 65K/mo, are big questions....and important.

[mfd101]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Whether they will still allow the combined method and whether they will allow for flunctuating monthly amounts if they average out to 65K/mo, are big questions....and important

Most likely a MINIMUM of 65K a month. An averaging system would allow for too many dodgy work-arounds.

[JohnOFphon]

On 11/16/2018 at 10:40 PM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

--also, what if anything are they doing to get Thai Immigration HQ to come forward with a public announcement of just what they will and won't accept for financial proof/monthly income documentation for 2019 and beyond? 

 

 

John, why don't you write up some kind of question we can cut and paste to Citizen Services?

I am not as good at putting things into writing as you.

Maybe leave a space or two where we can add our names....passport number??

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, JohnOFphon said:

John, why don't you write up some kind of question we can cut and paste to Citizen Services?

I am not as good at putting things into writing as you.

Maybe leave a space or two where we can add our names....passport number??

 

I think I already mentioned elsewhere here, I did write emails to both BKK and CM ACS about a week ahead of yesterday's event raising various issues, and all I got in reply was a standard form letter email that didn't answer or respond to anything in my email to them.

 

But if you'd like to see what I wrote, just PM me, and I'll pass it along. Part of it was things relating to how they'd handle the (then) upcoming public meeting, but the remainder was just on the broader issues with the income letter debacle.

 

[bubba]

9 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Most likely a MINIMUM of 65K a month. An averaging system would allow for too many dodgy work-arounds.

Why would it be considered dodgy if you have an investment portfolio and sell off assets such as shares as you need the money? That is easily verifiable and for many, it works out to much more than 65K baht/month. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

14 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 Even if central level were to allow it, I cannot imagine most local IOs sorting through a multitude of different documents from different countries in different languages and formats to figure out what someone's income is.

 

Sheryl, one thing to keep in mind, AFAIK, is we really don't know whether the income letters cessation is going to end up affecting any nationalities other than the Americans, Brits, Aussies and Danes (3 of the 4 of which would only have supporting documents in English).

 

Haven't heard peepers that the Japanese or Chinese or other large expat population Embassies are going down the same road. Is Immigration pulling the plug on ALL income letters, or only those from certain countries where they seem to have made certain demands?  That seems like that's also a significant unanswered question at this point.

 

[rumak]

9 minutes ago, bubba said:

Why would it be considered dodgy if you have an investment portfolio and sell off assets such as shares as you need the money? That is easily verifiable and for many, it works out to much more than 65K baht/month. 

bubba, cmon, dodgy or not what the point that many here on this thread are trying to get across is that

Immigration does not have the time and more importantly the knowledge to interpret the many forms of income that foreigners may have.   heck, even i can't understand the US tax forms !  Last time i did tax it was something like 10 different pages of various forms i had to complete. .  SO...i would say that the many different forms from different countries are NOT easily verifiable.  

Now, money coming into a thai bank acct every month would be easy and quick for them to

understand .   unfortunately, with 7 billion people on the planet, the age of individual attention has long passed.   

 

Edited November 21, 2018 by rumak