FYI - U.S. Consulate Chiang Mai town hall meeting November 20th Chiang Mai University

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, bubba said:

Why would it be considered dodgy if you have an investment portfolio and sell off assets such as shares as you need the money? That is easily verifiable and for many, it works out to much more than 65K baht/month. 

 

The current police order for one or the other of the extension methods specifically mentions "an average of" XXXXXX baht per month. So the averaging approach is already there in what they accept right now for one of the extension types.  Whether it will be part of the future scheme, who knows....

 

[Sheryl]

22 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Most likely a MINIMUM of 65K a month. An averaging system would allow for too many dodgy work-arounds.

I'm not sure why? 

 

Dividends, which form a part of some retiree's incomes, are paid out quarterly.

[mfd101]

11 minutes ago, bubba said:

Why would it be considered dodgy if you have an investment portfolio and sell off assets such as shares as you need the money? That is easily verifiable and for many, it works out to much more than 65K baht/month. 

Borrowing & paying it back. The shonky types would be more likely to do that with an averaging system that allows them to borrow & pay back, say, once every 4 months, than with a monthly minimum system (because of the credit costs potentially involved).

[bubba]

2 minutes ago, rumak said:

bubba, cmon, dodgy or not what the point that many here on this thread are trying to get across is that

Immigration does not have the time and more importantly the knowledge to interpret the many forms of income that foreigners may have.   heck, even i can't understand the US tax forms !  Last time i did tax it was something like 10 different pages of various forms i had to complete. .  SO...i would say that the many different forms from different countries are NOT easily verifiable.

 

 

But an investment portfolio transaction statement is quite simple - far simpler than tax returns.

 

If I sell a share asset, it is in English and looks something like this:

 

Date: XX/XX/XXXX

 

Sold: XXX shares at XX per share.

 

Total proceeds: XXXX

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

FWIW, every time my Embassy pops up on the income letters issue, I get the distinct sense that the Embassy people doing the talking or writing on said subject have never actually personally had to deal with Thai Immigration as a private citizen.

 

Since they're all on diplomatic status, I don't know if they even have to set foot into an Immigration office themselves, or more likely, have a staff person that bundles up all their passports and documents and takes care of all the formalities. 

 

All I can say is, their expectations of Thai Immigration don't seem to match very well with what the common citizen folks have to deal with year in and year out.

 

[bubba]

2 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

Borrowing & paying it back. The shonky types would be more likely to do that with an averaging system that allows them to borrow & pay back, say, once every 4 months, than with a monthly minimum system (because of the credit costs potentially involved).

Not sure what you mean here with regard to share sales. Do you mean borrowing the funds on margin to buy the shares? That could get very expensive, including the margin interest and the potential for substantial losses.

[BoBoTheClown]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The current police order for one or the other of the extension methods specifically mentions "an average of" XXXXXX baht per month. So the averaging approach is already there in what they accept right now for one of the extension types.  Whether it will be part of the future scheme, who knows....

 

1. Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month.  This is straight from the order.  Also, the rest of the order is attached. Please be careful when posting. 

immigration_bureau_order_138-2557_2014_-_extension_documents.pdf

[rumak]

this is starting to resemble the 30 something odd pages about the simple tm30 form.  good reading to exercise my neck and rolling eyes.   not only our "elected official" but also many posters just don't seem

to have much hands on experience with how TI works .

to quote John once again : 

"their expectations of Thai Immigration don't seem to match very well with what the common citizen folks have to deal with year in and year out. "   I've yet to live anywhere that i could go into a govt office and explain to them how things should work and they would say.....oh, sorry sir.  of course we can do it that way.

I think the standard reply is :   i'm sorry, that is the law/policy/ rule............

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 minutes ago, BoBoTheClown said:

1. Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month.  This is straight from the order.  Also, the rest of the order is attached. Please be careful when posting. 

immigration_bureau_order_138-2557_2014_-_extension_documents.pdf

 

Perhaps YOU should pay more attention to the documents you're posting. As I said above, the averaging method is in the current rules for ONE of the current extension methods, as follows (copied from the document you posted).  I never said the averaging method was cited in the retirement extensions section.

 

[mfd101]

18 minutes ago, bubba said:

Not sure what you mean here with regard to share sales. Do you mean borrowing the funds on margin to buy the shares? That could get very expensive, including the margin interest and the potential for substantial losses.

I'm not talking about share sells in particular. I mean people who really don't have the minimum of 65K a month. They could in theory get around that (in the same way as the 800K in the bank for 3  months people can do) by borrowing funds from a lender of whatever kind, pay it into their Thai account to reach the minimum average over time, then withdraw the funds & repay the lender with interest.

 

That is - it seems to me - less likely to occur if the 65K is a monthly minimum, not an average.

[rumak]

29 minutes ago, bubba said:

 

But an investment portfolio transaction statement is quite simple - far simpler than tax returns.

 

If I sell a share asset, it is in English and looks something like this:

 

Date: XX/XX/XXXX

 

Sold: XXX shares at XX per share.

 

Total proceeds: XXXX

 

 

 

and just how would anyone verify that the next day or two you did not reinvest (buy shares) of that or another stock.    ???    very easy to do when you have two seperate trading accounts.   

[BoBoTheClown]

15 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

And immigrations officers will not grant you a visa in any event since you would be applying for an extension of stay.

Those terms are used interchangeably in this forum each and everyday.  I advise you to stay focus on more important things like, figuring out how you will prove your income to TI. 

 

 

 

[GeorgeCross]

1 hour ago, bubba said:

 

But an investment portfolio transaction statement is quite simple - far simpler than tax returns.

 

If I sell a share asset, it is in English and looks something like this:

 

Date: XX/XX/XXXX

 

Sold: XXX shares at XX per share.

 

Total proceeds: XXXX

 

 

 

 

one thing is for sure if you cannot convince us good luck convincing immigration..

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 hours ago, PFV said:

Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

 

Perhaps a good start by Immigration HQ would be to actually start informing the various Immigration offices what's going on with the income letters issue. And likewise, I hope the Embassy/Consulate folks will do their "training" at all the far-flung Immigration offices, and not just the touristy resort spots.

 

 

 

 

[Thaidream]

41 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Perhaps a good start by Immigration HQ would be to actually start informing the various Immigration offices what's going on with the income letters issue. And likewise, I hope the Embassy/Consulate folks will do their "training" at all the far-flung Immigration offices, and not just the touristy resort spots.

 

Definitely needs doing. If nothing else is definite-  all offices need to be told that they must accept the Embassy Letters dated in 2018 for 6 months forward and this needs to come from  the Immigration Commissioners office!!

[bubba]

2 hours ago, rumak said:

and just how would anyone verify that the next day or two you did not reinvest (buy shares) of that or another stock.    ???    very easy to do when you have two seperate trading accounts.   

There is no way anyone could what the proceeds from a share sale are used for, whether reinvestment or spending. It is still income. For a pensioner, is there any way anyone could verify how he/she uses that income, which could be an investment or it could be spending? I see nothing in the retirement extension guidance that stipulates how verifiable income is to be spent. 

[rumak]

5 minutes ago, bubba said:

There is no way anyone could what the proceeds from a share sale are used for, whether reinvestment or spending. It is still income. For a pensioner, is there any way anyone could verify how he/she uses that income, which could be an investment or it could be spending? I see nothing in the retirement extension guidance that stipulates how verifiable income is to be spent. 

i can explain it to you but i can not understand it for you.  please let us all know how your extension of stay goes when you present your income to the relevant imm office that you go to.  good luck and may the

force be with you.

[Thaidream]

18 minutes ago, bubba said:

There is no way anyone could what the proceeds from a share sale are used for, whether reinvestment or spending. It is still income. For a pensioner, is there any way anyone could verify how he/she uses that income, which could be an investment or it could be spending? I see nothing in the retirement extension guidance that stipulates how verifiable income is to be spent

I would agree and the point being that what needs to be 'proved' is that one has 65K per month each month and the stream will  remain  relatively stable for the year.  This can be attained several ways- pensions-  both government and company;  a home rental  generating income;  a  business (not working) investment generating the required income; stocks that  show an ongoing income stream/

 

How one spends their income in Thailand is inconsequential- some rent some buy; some have  cars others use taxis etc.  No one lifestyle fits all. Some will spend much more than 65K per month- others much less. Everyone needs a place to sleep; food; and  transportation and clothing.

 

While I do not have a business or stocks; I would hope that when the dust settles there will be enough in the system to accommodate those who  actually have the income and can  provide documentation showing it and not focus on the type or how they spend it.

[bubba]

28 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I would agree and the point being that what needs to be 'proved' is that one has 65K per month each month and the stream will  remain  relatively stable for the year.  This can be attained several ways- pensions-  both government and company;  a home rental  generating income;  a  business (not working) investment generating the required income; stocks that  show an ongoing income stream/

 

How one spends their income in Thailand is inconsequential- some rent some buy; some have  cars others use taxis etc.  No one lifestyle fits all. Some will spend much more than 65K per month- others much less. Everyone needs a place to sleep; food; and  transportation and clothing.

 

While I do not have a business or stocks; I would hope that when the dust settles there will be enough in the system to accommodate those who  actually have the income and can  provide documentation showing it and not focus on the type or how they spend it.

That's a good point, Thaidream. Income is income, and not only monthly pension payments. My whole question is: will Immigration interpret the guidance as at least 65K/month each month for a total of 780K PA or will they allow for averaging?

 

As Sheryl pointed out earlier, dividends are typically paid out quarterly, which could mean big chunks coming in on various months, and perhaps nothing on some months. Same goes for income from asset sales. For a person with income from asset sales and dividend income totalling, say, 5M baht annualised, if a monthly 65K minimum is applied, that person could be denied their extension, while the 70K/month pensioner who is substantially less well off is granted their extension. 

 

This really is a big deal to many of us who derive our income that way, particularly those of us who have not yet reached pension or social security age. If I have to create 65K/month of income from share sales plus dividends, I do not want to do that, but I can; however, what we need is some clarification on what exactly will be acceptable so that we can do the appropriate planning. None of us wants the unpleasant surprise of being denied our extension next time round.

[mfd101]

The key point in all of this is that we now have the BEGINNINGS of evidence on which we now should all begin to act for the income method of retirement renewal.

 

The evidence, such as it is, from yesterday's meeting, plus the US Ambassador's Office response to one inquiry (which mentions meetings with TI as early as February last), is beginning to point - as discussed above - in the direction of minimum 65K฿ in a Thai bank account every month. Yes, the evidence is not firm yet, & it could change or evolve. But no harm will be done by starting to at least plan for this outcome: open Thai account if you don't have one already; plan on best method for YOU to move 65K each month; if you can, start moving the 65K now. Nothing will be lost if the outcome from TI is a bit different from what it currently looks like being. But you might suffer greatly if you're not getting under way now.

 

Watchword for all sensible people: BE PREPARED.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, bubba said:

This really is a big deal to many of us who derive our income that way, particularly those of us who have not yet reached pension or social security age. If I have to create 65K/month of income from share sales plus dividends, I do not want to do that, but I can; however, what we need is some clarification on what exactly will be acceptable so that we can do the appropriate planning. None of us wants the unpleasant surprise of being denied our extension next time round.

If I was Thai Imm- I would ask for  the documentation from your brokerage Account which I sure shows amount of income and do some simple math.  To get an average of 65K from Stocks or similar investment- one has to have a good deal of money in the system.

 

I might also ask to see a bank statement showing any  pull off from the brokerage account into either a local or foreign bank. IMO- legitimate income can always be proved.  It's just getting Thai Imm familiar with this type of documentation.  If they will accept this- I might have a written statement translated into Thai explaining  brokerage accounts and how they work topresent to a doubting IO.

[Dante99]

4 hours ago, bubba said:

 

But an investment portfolio transaction statement is quite simple - far simpler than tax returns.

 

If I sell a share asset, it is in English and looks something like this:

 

Date: XX/XX/XXXX

 

Sold: XXX shares at XX per share.

 

Total proceeds: XXXX

 

 

 

Ok but that really does NOT show income.  Proceeds are not income.  Cost must be deducted first.  So to get to income requires a buy order confirmation too and thus becomes complex for TI.  Confirming that the securities on the sell order are the ones on the buy order is another often complex process.  FIFO, LIFO, average cost or what?

 

 

[Pib]

21 hours ago, PFV said:

 

3.      Bangkok Immigration and Chiang Mai Immigration both are eager to assist in the transition and to make sure all Immigration Officers understand what to do moving forward.

4.      Embassy income-verification letters will no longer be required.

5.      Concerning proof of income, the Embassy and CM Consulate will be conducting training sessions to explain the various forms of retirement income US retirees depend on, which are quite different from European national pension systems Thai Immigration is used to.

6.      One interesting observation was that they (Thai Immigration) had great difficulty in understanding the non-monthly nature of some income streams that they find unsettling.

7.      For specific cases of required proof of income, US citizens should comply with their local Immigration Office guidelines.

8.      Among other tidbits, the good news is that they will now accept 1099 and other tax forms, among other types of evidence, since these were explained to them in Chiang Mai, and that income can be paid into either a Thai or foreign bank account. However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

 

PFV, a great report...thanks.

 

And not to shoot the messenger--I'm not---but in my opinion the US Embassy briefers were blowing smoke....putting a super positive spin on the situation....implying don't worry about it....it's all going to work out....we'll provide TI some training and all will be fine....etc....etc....etc. 

 

Kinda like a politician campaigning for political office....talks a lot...talks how things should be....makes campaign promises...but once elected seems to have memory loss and/or blame someone else for things not working out as talked.

 

Personally I really can't see TI accepting a wide range of income docs like 1099s and other tax forms especially when such forms vary in format and could be close to a year old when a person applies.  But if TI does indeed allow docs up to a year old although 1099s vary in format they do indeed report income and are relatively simple in "most" cases especially if a US govt pension/benefit is being reported. 

 

Also, although 1099s are a common document for reporting types of income/dividends in the US in other countries gosh knows what form numbers and formats they us.  I'm sure UK and AU folks use different forms and format.  And the Danish also....and their forms are not in English.  As more embassies pile on in stopping issue of the letters (and there is surely be more) then TI would then have a myriad of income forms in different languages to become proficient in reading/understanding.   I'm sure Headquarters TI must ensure whatever new procedure it may allow can be applied to all/most nationalities and immigration officers can easy understand.

 

But when the dust settles my bet would be on monthly deposit flowing to the person's Thai bank account being the requirement as that is straight forth, less prone to fraud/fake docs, and easy for TI to understand.  The KISS principle.

 

Once again, great report....thanks.

 

 

 

 

[Thaidream]

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Also, although 1099s are a common document for reporting types of income/dividends in the US in other countries gosh knows what form numbers and formats they us.  I'm sure UK and AU folks use different forms and format.  And the Danish also....and their forms are not in English.  As more embassies pile on in stopping issue of the letters (and there is surely be more) then TI would then have a myriad of income forms in different languages to become proficient in reading/understanding.   I'm sure Headquarters TI must ensure whatever new procedure it may allow can be applied to all/most nationalities and immigration officers can easy understand.

What you say is most likely correct but I don't expect it to happen quickly -as having money solely in a Thai bank for  and  mandating monthly transfers from abroad as the only way is too limiting for  some  people whose income may not come from abroad.

IMO- a lot will depend upon how many Embassies-if any more- join the 4.   If they all go this way- the  IO's will not be able to keep up with every  country's system.  However, if it is only the 4- I can see this being handled with the IOs getting a brief on how each countries income flows work- timing and source- and then  have a small briefing book available in each office showing copies of the documentation.  All 4 countries use English -including Denmark being multilingual. In addition, there is sufficient time for the Embassies to interact with Thai Imm as issues occur and for Thai Imm to see how things develop through 2019. 

According to the US and UK  and AU Embassies the letters issued in 2018 will be good for 6 months hence buying many people time to adjust and also giving Thai Imm the ability to decide the next step. In addition, the Us Embassy has again reiterated the same.

The only people right at this moment who will face Thai Imm without any letter will be the Danes and hopefully Thai Imm will be able to work with them to ease the transition as well as everyone else who doesn't know about the situation and walks in cold to file a marriage or retirement extension. I hope for the best for everyone!

[JLCrab]

9 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I hope for the best for everyone!

Do you think it was the best for everyone before all the recent re-arrangements?

 

It is just the nature of these back-office situations that 80% of the items take 20% of the time and 20% of the items take 80% of the time. In this case, if you try to accommodate all the extreme situations, the IMM offices might not have the staff, resources, or competence to deal with the problem 20%, so 'everyone' might not end up with the best.

[onera1961]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:22 PM, Kurtf said:

This is great. Now the consulate (the US gov’t) won’t be able to rip us off for $50 just to have them stamp a piece of paper.

This piece of paper served well for more than a decade. And it has created a firestorm when they stopped issuing it for 50 bucks

[onera1961]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:40 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

However, the Embassy official opined, in a private conversation after the meeting, that transfers into a Thai bank account is probably what they will end up requiring in the future.

I have been saying the exactly same since the announcement - money in a Thai bank. If the IO sees lots of local deposit, they may individually interview on a case by case basis about the source of income.

If I were Thai IO, I would simply refuse to check everyone's 1099 and learn what 1099 is. Even most Americans are unable to read it and complete it for tax return purposes. That's why they end up with H&R block (or entities like that) to complete their tax returns. The sophisticated type use a software and low earners go to Walmart H&R block office.

A 1099 can be faked easily using a Tax return software or by hand written. A 1099 does not mean anything. You can simply fill up anything you want and not submit to IRS or submit a different version to IRS.

[ThaiBob]

What I never understood is why the American Embassy cannot verify our income but it requires some thinking outside the box. Most retired American citizens should know that they can access all their SSI and IRS information online at SSI.gov and IRS.gov.  To establish accounts you will be asked to verify information from your credit file. I was able to view my IRS history including breakdowns of income by line number, AGI, etc. At the SSI website I was able to view and print verification letters (including our new 2.8 COLA increase) to my printer or any printer. So the question is why can't we have computers at the Embassy where we login and print to the embassy staff printers? No chance of forgery or manipulation. These documents are then attached to a real verification letter as proof. We are in control, government agencies cannot do this, we initiate the request by logging into government systems. This resolves the discussion about the various types of income and interpretation of income. Perhaps the techies would know if the Embassy printers were online we could print to them from our homes. 

[Thaidream]

58 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

A 1099 can be faked easily using a Tax return software or by hand written. A 1099 does not mean anything. You can simply fill up anything you want and not submit to IRS or submit a different version to IRS.

Not correct- a 1099 is sent  by  Social Security and  other entities showing exactly how much one is paid. You do not fill out a 1099- it is an official  document from an income source. The 1040 Form is what you report your taxes on and then submit your 1099 ALONG WITH YOUR 1040.

Very easy to read- get one every year.  Very easy for the IO to understand and read.

[JackThompson]

15 hours ago, bubba said:

As Sheryl pointed out earlier, dividends are typically paid out quarterly, which could mean big chunks coming in on various months, and perhaps nothing on some months. Same goes for income from asset sales. For a person with income from asset sales and dividend income totalling, say, 5M baht annualised, if a monthly 65K minimum is applied, that person could be denied their extension, while the 70K/month pensioner who is substantially less well off is granted their extension. 

My suggestion is to keep proceeds out of the country in a "buffer" account, and use that acct to seed the Thai account at or above the minimum required monthly level.  In my case, that means not sending "too much too soon" to retain sufficient funds for "lean" months - so sending money to Thailand is delayed, not accelerated.  In the past, when my business did well, I'd send over a larger chunk, then draw it down over time - not anymore. 

 

This may not be enough, of course, given the income is not from a govt-source with some sort of letter - but it is the best I can do.  Hopefully a year of transfers - or several, if I continue using Non-O-ME Visas (married to a Thai) - will provide a track-record sufficient to satisfy a measly 1-year extension at some point in the future.  I could back this up with the associated university degrees and a CV, if they are worried the business could fail - proving I could easily take a Thai's tech-job here, if I was so inclined (I'm not, unless forced to do this by immigration as a last-resort).