"Proof of Income"

[DUNROAMIN]

Reference Income for retirement.

Went to my Immigration office (Mukdahan) today with two lots of "Proof of Income" No Embassy Affidavit or Stat Dec provided.

 

1. Official Government letters from Australian Military pension and Government Department of Veterans Affairs/age pension.

2. Bank statements from Australian bank showing transfers of funds to Thailand bank account, verified and signed. This verified an annual income of over B800,000.00.

I was also nearly due for 3 month visit this month and 12 month extension in December, the female immigration officer went out of her way and organised my 3 month and 12 month extension at the same time, her boss granted me a 40 day extension on top of my 12 month extension. It did take a bit longer than normal explaining my income, however, the staff at my immigration office were extremely helpful and polite.

I guess not all immigration offices are the same, maybe I was lucky or maybe its a matter of keeping your cool and working with these people and not against them.

 

Next year I am getting legally married to my girl, which will make it easier for income, B400,000.00 in the bank, or B40,000.00 per month. I am happy with B400,000.00 in a Thai bank, it will make things so much easier next year, not to mention other benefits being married to a Thai.

Good luck to all with your visa extensions.

Cheers

 

 

 

[elviajero]

That’s good news. Not sure it will be the same elsewhere yet.

 

Did you show a Thai bank book and if so what was the balance in that Thai account?

 

15 minutes ago, DUNROAMIN said:

the female immigration officer went out of her way and organised my 3 month and 12 month extension at the same time, her boss granted me a 40 day extension on top of my 12 month extension.

The extension would have started in December (on expiry of the existing extension) regardless of how early you applied. You always get 12 months plus the number of days you apply early.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

1 hour ago, DUNROAMIN said:

not to mention other benefits being married to a Thai.

 

?

[marcusarelus]

11 minutes ago, theguyfromanotherforum said:

 

?

They understand the benefits of living in Thailand and don't need a visa.

Edited November 16, 2018 by marcusarelus

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, DUNROAMIN said:

Bank statements from Australian bank showing transfers of funds to Thailand bank account, verified and signed.

 

Verified and signed by whom?

 

Also, did they ask you if you had, or why you didn't have, an income letter from the Australian Embassy?

 

Lastly, did they approve your application based on monthly income OR based on deposits into a Thai bank account totaling 800K?  In other words, did you have an 800K balance in your Thai bank account for the prior 3 months?

 

 

[DUNROAMIN]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

That’s good news. Not sure it will be the same elsewhere yet.

 

Did you show a Thai bank book and if so what was the balance in that Thai account?

 

The extension would have started in December (on expiry of the existing extension) regardless of how early you applied. You always get 12 months plus the number of days you apply early.

Hi, the officer was not interested in the balance, it was the combined income over a 12 month period which amounted to over B800,000.00 and my official letters from Australian Government showing an annual pension income of over 800,000.00.

[DUNROAMIN]

42 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Verified and signed by whom?

 

Also, did they ask you if you had, or why you didn't have, an income letter from the Australian Embassy?

 

Lastly, did they approve your application based on monthly income OR based on deposits into a Thai bank account totaling 800K?  In other words, did you have an 800K balance in your Thai bank account for the prior 3 months?

 

 

Many questions. Australian pension letters are from my pension sources which are signed by the person who initiates the letter and the Thai bank statements were signed and stamped by a bank representative.

I had approached Immigration two weeks ago prior my visit today to find out what was needed, they knew the embassies were stopping the letters. I asked what they wanted for proof, this is when I discussed with them about showing proof of income by providing bank statements showing transfers of money to a Thai bank amount to an annual figure of B800,000.00 +. There was no need for a bank balance of B800,000.00 for 3 months.

This is written as one of the criteria for a retirement visa on the immigration web site.

Keep in mind as I stated before, every immigration office seems to have their own interpretation of their policies regarding visa's.

Good luck. 

 

[BoBoTheClown]

Congrats! This how the system should work! Great job TI!

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, BoBoTheClown said:

Congrats! This how the system should work! Great job TI!

I think that we need to wait for similar reports on here about other immigration offices before heaping too much praise on the Immigration powers-that-be!

Edited November 16, 2018 by OJAS

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, DUNROAMIN said:

...bank statements showing transfers of money to a Thai bank amount to an annual figure of B800,000.00 +. There was no need for a bank balance of B800,000.00 for 3 months...

 

Thank you for this information. Although immigration told you that there was no need, could you nevertheless tell us what the lowest bank balance was over the last three months?

[gk10002000]

2 hours ago, BoBoTheClown said:

Congrats! This how the system should work! Great job TI!

No, that is not how it should work.  There should be no need to show periodic monthly transfers into Thailand.  How and when somebody moves money into Thailand has many more variations than that.  Some people may receive quarterly stock dividends and then move money in once every three months.  Some people get a  yearly lump sum pension payment.  Some people would travel back to their home country once or twice a year and could just bring back $10,000 or $20,000 USD each trip and then only transfer in or us an ATM now and then when needed.  Transferring money in does NOT show any proof of a steady available income.  One could be spending down a small lump sum.  One could be borrowing the money back and forth.  It doesn't prove that one has any income generating assets, such as a pension or stock or bond interest paying portfolio that are reasonably expected to produce income.  Or rental properties, or whatever. 

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, gk10002000 said:

No, that is not how it should work.  There should be no need to show periodic monthly transfers into Thailand.  How and when somebody moves money into Thailand has many more variations than that.  Some people may receive quarterly stock dividends and then move money in once every three months.  Some people get a  yearly lump sum pension payment.  Some people would travel back to their home country once or twice a year and could just bring back $10,000 or $20,000 USD each trip and then only transfer in or us an ATM now and then when needed.  Transferring money in does NOT show any proof of a steady available income.  One could be spending down a small lump sum.  One could be borrowing the money back and forth.  It doesn't prove that one has any income generating assets, such as a pension or stock or bond interest paying portfolio that are reasonably expected to produce income.  Or rental properties, or whatever. 

Without the involvement of the embassies the easiest way for immigration offices to evidence proof or a regular income would be to see it being transferred into a Thai account. There is no way they are going to start allowing documents for the myriad of ways income could be generated, some of which you list.

 

I think what has happened to the OP is the exception, and will not be the rule, IF immigration start to accept alternatives to the embassy letter.

[JackThompson]

8 hours ago, BoBoTheClown said:

Congrats! This how the system should work! Great job TI!

In addition to the "just one office so far," aspect - The poster had fairly easy-to-understand supporting docs (Military pension + Government Veterans Affairs/age pension) for his bank-letter (showing over 800K deposited).  I'm not sure how they would handle someone with private holdings, businesses from which equity can be withdrawn, etc. 

[BoBoTheClown]

5 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

No, that is not how it should work.  There should be no need to show periodic monthly transfers into Thailand.  How and when somebody moves money into Thailand has many more variations than that.  Some people may receive quarterly stock dividends and then move money in once every three months.  Some people get a  yearly lump sum pension payment.  Some people would travel back to their home country once or twice a year and could just bring back $10,000 or $20,000 USD each trip and then only transfer in or us an ATM now and then when needed.  Transferring money in does NOT show any proof of a steady available income.  One could be spending down a small lump sum.  One could be borrowing the money back and forth.  It doesn't prove that one has any income generating assets, such as a pension or stock or bond interest paying portfolio that are reasonably expected to produce income.  Or rental properties, or whatever. 

I believe he was granted the visa due to his pensions meeting the 40,000 baht level. Showing the deposits into the Thai Bank was something he did in his own. Relax its going to be ok.  

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, BoBoTheClown said:

I believe he was granted the visa due to his pensions meeting the 40,000 baht level. Showing the deposits into the Thai Bank was something he did in his own. Relax its going to be ok.  

No he was not. He was applying for an extension of stay (not a visa) based upon retirement.

From the OP.

11 hours ago, DUNROAMIN said:

Next year I am getting legally married to my girl, which will make it easier for income, B400,000.00 in the bank, or B40,000.00 per month. I am happy with B400,000.00 in a Thai bank, it will make things so much easier next year, not to mention other benefits being married to a Thai.

 

[DUNROAMIN]

8 hours ago, Maestro said:

Thank you for this information. Although immigration told you that there was no need, could you nevertheless tell us what the lowest bank balance was over the last three months?

About B55,000.00. Before this I transferred what I needed and kept some in reserve back home.

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, DUNROAMIN said:

About B55,000.00. Before this I transferred what I needed and kept some in reserve back home.

Not sure why you are using the 800k baht number for annual income. The requirement for income is at least 65k baht per month which is 780k baht annual income.

 

[DUNROAMIN]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

Not sure why you are using the 800k baht number for annual income. The requirement for income is at least 65k baht per month which is 780k baht annual income.

 

Trying to keep it simple when posting this info.

[Issanjohn]

7 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No he was not. He was applying for an extension of stay (not a visa) based upon retirement.

From the OP.

 

Hmm I was trying to reply to the entire topic but my device is acting weird.  Anyway I go by my monthly income but I’m gonna do exactly the same thing for next year.  I’m going to start transferring maybe half of my monthly pension payments into a Thai bank account from my bank in the states starting next month or maybe in January and do that every month throughout the year every year from now on.  And just start using a Thai bank account for next time.  I’m retired US military and I also have official pension letters from the VA and our DFAS in the states and I’ll take them with me as well just in case.  

 

And actually I do have to get my next visa extension in January since it expires in early February but both the US Embassy and my local immigration office in fact this was actually at my local immigration office yesterday they confirmed 100% that they will accept my income affidavit in January for sure this one last time.  I don’t know if it’s the same for all foreign citizens in Thailand but I know that for at least US citizens they will still continue to accept the income affidavits for six months after the date of completion.  Hopefully it’s the same for all citizens and I’ve heard that a few immigration offices might not be on the same page as the rest of the other immigration offices, but but it appears that most of the immigration offices are all on the same page as they informed our embassy.  At least I confirmed once and for all yesterday that my local immigration office will still accept the income affidavit in January.  The IO said it’s valid for six months after the date of completion which was exactly the same thing the US Embassy told me.  It was an extremely productive visit to immigration yesterday and the immigration officer and supervisor laid my concerns about the income verification to rest finally.  In my situation it’ll kind of work out just in time, for me it’s just kind of luck and perfect timing.  Regardless I do fall within immigration laws so there was probably really nothing to worry about to begin with.  I was a little nervous when all the talk started back in October but not anymore because now there’s a plan, at least I have a plan anyway.  As the saying goes if you’re honest you shouldn’t have anything to fear.  

 

For all non US citizens I would verify with your embassies and local immigration offices if the same rules apply to you, as far as the income affidavits still being accepted for six months after the date of completion especially if you’re in my situation.  I don’t see why the same rules wouldn’t apply to everyone else but I don’t know how other embassies were doing things.  

 

In my situation I can use the income affidavit this one last time and then I’ll just have to have a plan for January 2020 such as transferring at least the minimum monthly income requirement into a Thai bank account every month on payday, which is probably what they will require even the US Embassy told me that for next time in January 2020.  The IO at my local immigration office yesterday also told me that I can apply for my next extension 30 to 45 days early so now I feel a huge sense of relief after gathering all the facts.  I’ve just never been a big fan of change but I’ve always been adaptable.  

[Issanjohn]

I go by my monthly income but I’m gonna do exactly the same thing for next year.  I’m going to start transferring maybe half of my monthly pension payments into a Thai bank account from my bank in the states starting next month or maybe in January and do that every month throughout the year every year from now on.  And just start using a Thai bank account for next time.  I’m retired US military and I also have official pension letters from the VA and our DFAS in the states and I’ll take them with me as well just in case.  

 

And actually I do have to get my next visa extension in January since it expires in early February but both the US Embassy and my local immigration office in fact this was actually at my local immigration office yesterday they confirmed 100% that they will accept my income affidavit in January for sure this one last time.  I don’t know if it’s the same for all foreign citizens in Thailand but I know that for at least US citizens they will still continue to accept the income affidavits for six months after the date of completion.  Hopefully it’s the same for all citizens and I’ve heard that a few immigration offices might not be on the same page as the rest of the other immigration offices, but but it appears that most of the immigration offices are all on the same page as they informed our embassy.  At least I confirmed once and for all yesterday that my local immigration office will still accept the income affidavit in January.  The IO said it’s valid for six months after the date of completion which was exactly the same thing the US Embassy told me.  It was an extremely productive visit to immigration yesterday and the immigration officer and supervisor laid my concerns about the income verification to rest finally.  In my situation it’ll kind of work out just in time, for me it’s just kind of luck and perfect timing.  Regardless I do fall within immigration laws so there was probably really nothing to worry about to begin with.  I was a little nervous when all the talk started back in October but not anymore because now there’s a plan, at least I have a plan anyway.  As the saying goes if you’re honest you shouldn’t have anything to fear.  

 

For all non US citizens I would verify with your embassies and local immigration offices if the same rules apply to you, as far as the income affidavits still being accepted for six months after the date of completion especially if you’re in my situation.  I don’t see why the same rules wouldn’t apply to everyone else but I don’t know how other embassies were doing things.  

 

In my situation I can use the income affidavit this one last time and then I’ll just have to have a plan for January 2020 such as transferring at least the minimum monthly income requirement into a Thai bank account every month on payday, which is probably what they will require anyway, and even the US Embassy told me that for next time in January 2020.  The IO at my local immigration office yesterday also told me that I can apply for my next extension 30 to 45 days early so now I feel a huge sense of relief after gathering all the facts.  I’ve just never been a big fan of change but I’ve always been adaptable.  I like to get mine done as early as possible in case I run into a problem that way I would have time to get it fixed in time before it expires.  I hate doing important things at the last minute I’m just the kind of person who’s always overly prepared.  What the OP is saying is almost exactly what my plan is for next time I do this and it makes sense.  

Edited November 17, 2018 by Issanjohn

[wwest5829]

14 hours ago, elviajero said:

Without the involvement of the embassies the easiest way for immigration offices to evidence proof or a regular income would be to see it being transferred into a Thai account. There is no way they are going to start allowing documents for the myriad of ways income could be generated, some of which you list.

 

I think what has happened to the OP is the exception, and will not be the rule, IF immigration start to accept alternatives to the embassy letter.

I believe, therein lies the rub. It seems that Thai Immigration wants the Embassies to verify the income coming into Thailand. The Embassies, in consideration of the many various sources of income are declining to chase down each source. Talking to some, they have a defined benefit go’t or private company pension which issues their verification. My case would be like others have stated. Half from US Socisl Security ($1254.00 a month), a like amount I take from my retirement each month. I can show the monthly transfer to Bangkok Bank but that needs to suffice. I will not be cashing out stocks to deposit 800,000 baht in a Thai bank costing me investment returns. I have no issue with Thailand wanting to have some verification of my having funds to support myself but they need to make this as easy to accomplish as possible.

[JackThompson]

41 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

 And just start using a Thai bank account for next time.  I’m retired US military and I also have official pension letters from the VA and our DFAS in the states and I’ll take them with me as well just in case.

Showing 800K Baht worth of money flowing into your Thai bank account for a year, plus backup-evidence of its origin from your pension letters, is probably the best-scenario we can guess-at for being able to qualify for an extension based on income next year.  Those of us with other forms of income may face tougher odds, even if we make the transfers.

 

45 minutes ago, Issanjohn said:

 I don’t know if it’s the same for all foreign citizens in Thailand but I know that for at least US citizens they will still continue to accept the income affidavits for six months after the date of completion.

...

For all non US citizens I would verify with your embassies and local immigration offices if the same rules apply to you, as far as the income affidavits still being accepted for six months after the date of completion especially if you’re in my situation.

There is a police-order stating the embassy-letters are valid for 6 mo.  Some offices are saying "No more starting Jan 1, 2019" - so seem to have decided to take advantage of this dust-up to begin ignoring that police-order, and quickly push all who use income to qualify to agents.  I am glad to hear your office is not among those. 

 

Unless or until there is a new directive from the top, forced on the local-offices, the policy on the remaining embassy-letters, and acceptable income-proof in general, could vary wildly from one office to the other.

[thailand49]

????Basically, how I got it was he had no Embassy Affidivate. He basically went in to do his 90 days and file 30 days early for his extension in December?

He basically shows them he was getting a monthly pension which meets the requirement sign by someone from his bank back home then show documentation from a Thai bank those pension funds were being transferred to a Thai bank?

So it seems the one-year extension was approved Dec-Dec 2019 if that was the case what was the need to have a 40-day extension added?

 

Thai immigration guidelines state 800,000 must be in a Thai bank it is clear what isn't clear is how the month 65,000 has to come it?  It clearly doesn't state the 65,000 has to be deposited into a Thai bank it just says "Bank" so if I give them the monthly statement from two banks back home pension money being deposited each month in a timely manner and then being withdrawn out of Thai bank ATM paying the 150-220 foreign card fee each time totaling over the 65,000 amount would that qualified?

The answer no one knows since every office seems to have a different interpretation of their own rules?  Only time will tell what is going to be acceptable when my time comes I'm going to try and over everything and do it respectfully with the officer. 

 

[thailand49]

35 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Showing 800K Baht worth of money flowing into your Thai bank account for a year, plus backup-evidence of its origin from your pension letters, is probably the best-scenario we can guess-at for being able to qualify for an extension based on income next year.  Those of us with other forms of income may face tougher odds, even if we make the transfers.

 

There is a police-order stating the embassy-letters are valid for 6 mo.  Some offices are saying "No more starting Jan 1, 2019" - so seem to have decided to take advantage of this dust-up to begin ignoring that police-order, and quickly push all who use income to qualify to agents.  I am glad to hear your office is not among those. 

 

Unless or until there is a new directive from the top, forced on the local-offices, the policy on the remaining embassy-letters, and acceptable income-proof in general, could vary wildly from one office to the other.

I think the fact are.....

There hasn't been a police order!  The U.S. Embassy I believed has stated they will continue to issue the letter until the first of the year the Thai Immigration agree to accept and extend the letter from the date of issue for six month.

It was posted by a ops his experience at a office somewhere in Thailand that the official said the letter wouldn't be accepted first of the year.  Point many are making the left doesn't know what the right hand is doing and get it wrong?  What I'v been saying speaking English and comprehending it by Thai officials are too different stories.

What is true is things will vary from office to office and hearing from the top I wouldn't hold our breath. If the Embassy had done their job and just ask at the time when the complaint came in " what is your suggestion " to the solution we wouldn't be bashing ourselves to death.

What I do know I'm going to have all my options ready and will do my best to ask my question but in general I serious doubt I'm going to get any real answers as soon as I open my mouth and say how are you and he/she says thank you I fine anything beyond that I will hit the wall!

Time will tell?????

[Russell17au]

6 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

????Basically, how I got it was he had no Embassy Affidivate. He basically went in to do his 90 days and file 30 days early for his extension in December?

He basically shows them he was getting a monthly pension which meets the requirement sign by someone from his bank back home then show documentation from a Thai bank those pension funds were being transferred to a Thai bank?

So it seems the one-year extension was approved Dec-Dec 2019 if that was the case what was the need to have a 40-day extension added?

 

Thai immigration guidelines state 800,000 must be in a Thai bank it is clear what isn't clear is how the month 65,000 has to come it?  It clearly doesn't state the 65,000 has to be deposited into a Thai bank it just says "Bank" so if I give them the monthly statement from two banks back home pension money being deposited each month in a timely manner and then being withdrawn out of Thai bank ATM paying the 150-220 foreign card fee each time totaling over the 65,000 amount would that qualified?

The answer no one knows since every office seems to have a different interpretation of their own rules?  Only time will tell what is going to be acceptable when my time comes I'm going to try and over everything and do it respectfully with the officer. 

 

I agree with you about the 90 day report and the early extension application but it is the 40 day extension that he was given. What was that for because if as he claims his extension has been approved then why would he need the extra 40 days. I think there is something missing in this whole thing.

As to the rest of your post, the laws have not changed and you need a letter of income/affidavit/stat dec if you are doing the income system. No one knows what is going to be accepted by TI until such time as they release a statement, so everything is pure speculation which is causing a lot of confusion. I wish that everybody would just stick to the facts and not the speculation, but this is TVF what could you expect

[thailand49]

4 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

I agree with you about the 90 day report and the early extension application but it is the 40 day extension that he was given. What was that for because if as he claims his extension has been approved then why would he need the extra 40 days. I think there is something missing in this whole thing.

As to the rest of your post, the laws have not changed and you need a letter of income/affidavit/stat dec if you are doing the income system. No one knows what is going to be accepted by TI until such time as they release a statement, so everything is pure speculation which is causing a lot of confusion. I wish that everybody would just stick to the facts and not the speculation, but this is TVF what could you expect

There is so much written can get confusing?  You say the Law, from what I've seen and read on Thai Immigration there is no law stating anything about an income affidavit. There was something written about how this method came about (maybe someone can clarify) then just became standard practice but it wasn't by the Thai Immigration?

Edited November 17, 2018 by thailand49

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

There hasn't been a police order!  The U.S. Embassy I believed has stated they will continue to issue the letter until the first of the year the Thai Immigration agree to accept and extend the letter from the date of issue for six month.

There is a directive from immigration that they are valid for 6 months from the date of issue that was issued in 2013.

See: Immigration directive for income letters.pdf

 

[Russell17au]

32 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

There is so much written can get confusing?  You say the Law, from what I've seen and read on Thai Immigration there is no law stating anything about an income affidavit. There was something written about how this method came about (maybe someone can clarify) then just became standard practice but it wasn't by the Thai Immigration?

This is from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand.

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

The income certificate is the letter of income/affidavit/ stat dec

sourced:http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O-A"-(Long-Stay).html

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

This is from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand.

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

The income certificate is the letter of income/affidavit/ stat dec

sourced:http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O-A"-(Long-Stay).html

 

Keep in mind, the rules for O-A visas typically issued OUTSIDE of Thailand are made by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

 

But the rules for marriage and retirement-based extensions of stay typically issued inside Thailand are a somewhat different set of rules for extensions made by the Immigration Bureau.

 

O-A visas and extensions of stay are not the same things, and the Embassies did a disservice by talking about those kinds of visa in regards to their plans to stop issuing income letters, since the Embassy income letters typically are used for extensions of stay, not O-A visas.

 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

It clearly doesn't state the 65,000 has to be deposited into a Thai bank it just says "Bank" so if I give them the monthly statement from two banks back home pension money being deposited each month in a timely manner and then being withdrawn out of Thai bank ATM paying the 150-220 foreign card fee each time totaling over the 65,000 amount would that qualified?

I doubt the IO will want to look through your stack of fading atm slips - or copies of them which could be faked.  If you tell them the fees are too high to make wire-transfers, that could lead them to believe you are "too poor" to be living here.  I'm not being flippant with that - just how I would guess some might react. 

 

The best bet (and a "bet" is all it is, at this point), is a Thai bank-statement showing foreign transfers in - something your Thai bank can put their fancy-stamp on with Thai writing in it.  Another statement from your home-bank might be good as additional evidence, as would source-info (pension statements, etc). 

 

54 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

but it is the 40 day extension that he was given. What was that for because if as he claims his extension has been approved then why would he need the extra 40 days. I think there is something missing in this whole thing.

I don't think there was a 40-day extension in the mix.  I would guess this was either his applying 40-days early, whereby the new extension starts at the point the old one ends - or - he got his 90-day reporting-date moved up - or - both.