"Proof of Income"

[metisdead]

A troll post has been reported and removed. 

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

There is so much written can get confusing?  You say the Law, from what I've seen and read on Thai Immigration there is no law stating anything about an income affidavit. There was something written about how this method came about (maybe someone can clarify) then just became standard practice but it wasn't by the Thai Immigration?

In the current Police Order 327/2557 (Criteria and Consideration of an Alien’s Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom) covering the extension of stay for marriage or retirement there is no mention of any requirement for an Embassy letter confirming the income of the applicant, and as far as I have been able to research there has not been any such requirement for a letter in the previous 3 Police Orders which have covered that past 15 years.

 

However, There is a set of Police Orders (date unknown, but still current) that covers the situations where an individual wants to convert their tourist visa to a NON-O based on either marriage or retirement.  As well as the so called ‘money in the bank route’ the requirements also indicate the alternative of income per month as follows:

 

Retirement:  “A guarantee letter from the local or overseas Embassy or Consulate, proving the monthly pension of the Applicant not less than Baht 65,000 per month (together with reference documents showing the source of said monthly pension)”

 

Marriage:  “A guarantee letter from the local or overseas Embassy or Consulate, proving the monthly income of the Applicant not less than Baht 40,000* per month”

 

Obviously someone wanting to convert their tourist visa to a NON-O will have some difficulty in having money ‘seeded’ in the bank for the stipulated period, so no doubt the Embassy letter was introduced by TI to overcome this problem.

 

It should also be noted that they have used the word ‘proving’ within the text.

 

It is my belief that IOs originally faced with a mountain of documents (pension slips, bank statements etc), in a variety of languages, which applicants submitted in an attempt to prove their income became an overwhelming and time consuming task.  As a result, they (IOs) at some time in the past decided unofficially to adopted the Embassy letter requirement for converting a tourist visa to a NON-O visa to the extension of stay as it involved virtually no checking on their part.  The letter has since become a case of ‘custom and practice’, rather than written instructions.

 

As a side issue, looking at the archive versions of The British Embassy website concerning notarial services, they actually stated the income letter was for obtaining a visa, and they only changed the text to include extension of stay after their announcement to withdraw the letter.

Edited November 17, 2018 by 007 RED
typo error

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Russell17au said:

I agree with you about the 90 day report and the early extension application but it is the 40 day extension that he was given. What was that for because if as he claims his extension has been approved then why would he need the extra 40 days. I think there is something missing in this whole thing.

He wasn't given an extra 40 days. He applied for the extension 40 days early and the new year starts from the end of the current year.

[Russell17au]

28 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I doubt the IO will want to look through your stack of fading atm slips - or copies of them which could be faked.  If you tell them the fees are too high to make wire-transfers, that could lead them to believe you are "too poor" to be living here.  I'm not being flippant with that - just how I would guess some might react. 

 

The best bet (and a "bet" is all it is, at this point), is a Thai bank-statement showing foreign transfers in - something your Thai bank can put their fancy-stamp on with Thai writing in it.  Another statement from your home-bank might be good as additional evidence, as would source-info (pension statements, etc). 

 

I don't think there was a 40-day extension in the mix.  I would guess this was either his applying 40-days early, whereby the new extension starts at the point the old one ends - or - he got his 90-day reporting-date moved up - or - both. 

He has stated that they gave him a 40 day extension on top of his 1 year extension. Go and read it for yourself. That is what he has stated

Edited November 17, 2018 by Russell17au

[elviajero]

8 minutes ago, Russell17au said:

He has stated that they gave him a 40 day extension on top of his 1 year extension. Go and read it for yourself. That is what he has stated

 

I’ve already explained that twice.

13 minutes ago, elviajero said:

He wasn't given an extra 40 days. He applied for the extension 40 days early and the new year starts from the end of the current year.

 

 

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post about a medical bill.

[JohnnyBD]

4 hours ago, Russell17au said:

He has stated that they gave him a 40 day extension on top of his 1 year extension. Go and read it for yourself. That is what he has stated

Just so you know, when you apply for example, 23 days early, you still get your 23 days that's left on your old extension plus you get the new 1 year extension. Your new extension starts on the date the old one expired, not when you go in early to apply.

That is what Mr. elviajero was trying to explain...

[arithai12]

10 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

I will not be cashing out stocks to deposit 800,000 baht in a Thai bank costing me investment returns.

Fair enough. However, just to clarify, you know that the 800k has to be in your account only in the 3 months prior to extension. There are many variations possible, depending on how the transfer costs add up, how your incomes are taxed, etc.  

[thailand49]

13 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

There is a directive from immigration that they are valid for 6 months from the date of issue that was issued in 2013.

See: Immigration directive for income letters.pdf

 

1

Thanks yes I agree my comments were from the response from the U.S. Embassy which I assume came from the Thai Immigration.

What is disturbing if case true the report from another thread and experience from a poster at one Immigration office? he was told no longer excepted after the 1st, why is it so hard for Big Joke to communicate that to all offices?

[thailand49]

13 hours ago, Russell17au said:

This is from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Thailand.

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

The income certificate is the letter of income/affidavit/ stat dec

sourced:http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15385-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"O-A"-(Long-Stay).html

Thanks, that clears the affidavit issue as to the origin, now does " or a deposit account " mean a Thai Bank or a foreign bank which I can clearly show and clearly show withdraws of those funds in Thailand? 

[thailand49]

13 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I doubt the IO will want to look through your stack of fading atm slips - or copies of them which could be faked.  If you tell them the fees are too high to make wire-transfers, that could lead them to believe you are "too poor" to be living here.  I'm not being flippant with that - just how I would guess some might react. 

 

The best bet (and a "bet" is all it is, at this point), is a Thai bank-statement showing foreign transfers in - something your Thai bank can put their fancy-stamp on with Thai writing in it.  Another statement from your home-bank might be good as additional evidence, as would source-info (pension statements, etc). 

 

I don't think there was a 40-day extension in the mix.  I would guess this was either his applying 40-days early, whereby the new extension starts at the point the old one ends - or - he got his 90-day reporting-date moved up - or - both. 

Thanks, for me it isn't the issue of paying the transfer fee, which I never said it so it wouldn't be an issue that I will need to bring it up I.O.  I think using to pay the ATM to withdraw each month is enough to indicate I'm not poor? I already have the money in the bank and more for a number of years my problem I stopped using the bank method because of the answers I got from time to time from the Immigration officer who replaces the old one who is the head of the section for an extension regarding the names on my passbooks. The new officer one year question the names on the bank book, if it was held jointly with a foreigner name like my brother it wasn't any good, but if it has a Thai name jointly it was o.k. I think we can all get what is going on here? He was trying to give me legal advice as to what to do. We ended up playing word games for 15 minutes in Thai gave him enough time to stumble all over himself. Thereafter, I just said I will go to the Embassy for the day for the letter pay the fee much higher than getting a bank letter 105 baht rather than listen to all the chatter.

[thailand49]

13 hours ago, 007 RED said:

In the current Police Order 327/2557 (Criteria and Consideration of an Alien’s Application for a Temporary Stay in the Kingdom) covering the extension of stay for marriage or retirement there is no mention of any requirement for an Embassy letter confirming the income of the applicant, and as far as I have been able to research there has not been any such requirement for a letter in the previous 3 Police Orders which have covered that past 15 years.

 

However, There is a set of Police Orders (date unknown, but still current) that covers the situations where an individual wants to convert their tourist visa to a NON-O based on either marriage or retirement.  As well as the so called ‘money in the bank route’ the requirements also indicate the alternative of income per month as follows:

 

Retirement:  “A guarantee letter from the local or overseas Embassy or Consulate, proving the monthly pension of the Applicant not less than Baht 65,000 per month (together with reference documents showing the source of said monthly pension)”

 

Marriage:  “A guarantee letter from the local or overseas Embassy or Consulate, proving the monthly income of the Applicant not less than Baht 40,000* per month”

 

Obviously someone wanting to convert their tourist visa to a NON-O will have some difficulty in having money ‘seeded’ in the bank for the stipulated period, so no doubt the Embassy letter was introduced by TI to overcome this problem.

 

It should also be noted that they have used the word ‘proving’ within the text.

 

It is my belief that IOs originally faced with a mountain of documents (pension slips, bank statements etc), in a variety of languages, which applicants submitted in an attempt to prove their income became an overwhelming and time consuming task.  As a result, they (IOs) at some time in the past decided unofficially to adopted the Embassy letter requirement for converting a tourist visa to a NON-O visa to the extension of stay as it involved virtually no checking on their part.  The letter has since become a case of ‘custom and practice’, rather than written instructions.

 

As a side issue, looking at the archive versions of The British Embassy website concerning notarial services, they actually stated the income letter was for obtaining a visa, and they only changed the text to include extension of stay after their announcement to withdraw the letter.

Thanks that is one of the points I was making before.  Thai government orders since they lack the resources to enforce it is basically the " honor system "

As you indicated the mountain of paperwork and the different languages if they can't do it how can they expect any Embassy to do it basically doing background checks on every applicant. Just from the appointment calendar of the U.S. they are doing 30 or more a day at their outreaches maybe 200?  My suggestion earlier if there is a large problem with Expats living here using their resources then I would like to see some evidence. If they can do a better job I would gladly pay another 1700 plus baht for them to do it themselves this way I can contribute to their pocketbook? If given the job back they would do exactly the same as any other Embassy.

I again ask the Thai Immigration how big is the problem? 

[Bundooman]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:26 AM, gk10002000 said:

No, that is not how it should work.  There should be no need to show periodic monthly transfers into Thailand.  How and when somebody moves money into Thailand has many more variations than that.  Some people may receive quarterly stock dividends and then move money in once every three months.  Some people get a  yearly lump sum pension payment.  Some people would travel back to their home country once or twice a year and could just bring back $10,000 or $20,000 USD each trip and then only transfer in or us an ATM now and then when needed.  Transferring money in does NOT show any proof of a steady available income.  One could be spending down a small lump sum.  One could be borrowing the money back and forth.  It doesn't prove that one has any income generating assets, such as a pension or stock or bond interest paying portfolio that are reasonably expected to produce income.  Or rental properties, or whatever. 

Excellent post - clarifies the problems dumped upon us by our Embassies.

 

All my pensions, (and for me), my total income comes from the UK; similar, I would have thought, to numerous Americans, Australians, us Brits and now the Danes as well.   How difficult is it for any Government organisation to compile a list of those citizens receiving government pensions, via their embassies and their government pension providers to provide 100% verification.

 

Embassy cop-out!

 

But no use to any of us now in Thailand. Already I can foresee problems, the disparity between Immigration locations nationwide and I just hope that the plans I am preparing for my own situation will be sufficient - or at least until we all discover exactly what the Thai Immigration service is willing to accept as proof of income!

[JackThompson]

34 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

Thanks, for me it isn't the issue of paying the transfer fee, which I never said it so it wouldn't be an issue that I will need to bring it up I.O.  I think using to pay the ATM to withdraw each month is enough to indicate I'm not poor? I already have the money in the bank and more for a number of years my problem I stopped using the bank method because of the answers I got from time to time from the Immigration officer who replaces the old one who is the head of the section for an extension regarding the names on my passbooks. The new officer one year question the names on the bank book, if it was held jointly with a foreigner name like my brother it wasn't any good, but if it has a Thai name jointly it was o.k. I think we can all get what is going on here? He was trying to give me legal advice as to what to do. We ended up playing word games for 15 minutes in Thai gave him enough time to stumble all over himself. Thereafter, I just said I will go to the Embassy for the day for the letter pay the fee much higher than getting a bank letter 105 baht rather than listen to all the chatter.

Yes - the bank-account must be in your name only for the 800K for 3 mo method, and would assume this also for the "regular transfers from abroad" method (we hope will exist).  The ATM fees are also crazy, though some have foreign-accounts which refund those. 

 

My suggestion is only that a bank-letter in your name, with the xfers shown as foreign-origin, is a good start.  We have to thread a needle of "seeming well off" while at the same time not rubbing it in their faces that we have/can make many times more money in our passport-countries than their salaries (not counting any "extra pay"), which is something they clearly resent and seek to "equalize" when given the opportunity.

[Orton Rd]

They all accept money in a Thai bank book for 90 days and a letter from your bank, I can't see why people make such a fuss, it's not difficult

[glegolo]

11 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

They all accept money in a Thai bank book for 90 days and a letter from your bank, I can't see why people make such a fuss, it's not difficult

You seems to miss out of a big thing here.. The income-method which is valid for most people....

That is the fuzz...

 

glegolo

[sandyf]

On 11/17/2018 at 2:40 AM, elviajero said:

Without the involvement of the embassies the easiest way for immigration offices to evidence proof or a regular income would be to see it being transferred into a Thai account. There is no way they are going to start allowing documents for the myriad of ways income could be generated, some of which you list.

 

I think what has happened to the OP is the exception, and will not be the rule, IF immigration start to accept alternatives to the embassy letter.

This is the crux of the matter. Is immigration now looking to see the funds in Thailand? Under the embassy letter arrangement you only had to show receipt of the funds, not where they were.

[peter harrison]

just tried to extend marriage non o they still wanted 800.000bht in the bank for six mounths prior to application plus a letter from the bank to verifi that i had an acc with them tried to point out is not the same as the web site basicaly had to shut my mouth i think every office has its own rules

[JackThompson]

15 minutes ago, peter harrison said:

just tried to extend marriage non o they still wanted 800.000bht in the bank for six mounths prior to application plus a letter from the bank to verifi that i had an acc with them tried to point out is not the same as the web site basicaly had to shut my mouth i think every office has its own rules

Marriage and 800K and 6-months - this does not make sense.  Please start a new thread with more detail, which office, what type of entry (stamped-in on) you have now, and what you were applying for at the immigration office.  Maybe we can help you sort it out, but not sure it fits into this thread.

[thailand49]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Yes - the bank-account must be in your name only for the 800K for 3 mo method, and would assume this also for the "regular transfers from abroad" method (we hope will exist).  The ATM fees are also crazy, though some have foreign-accounts which refund those. 

 

My suggestion is only that a bank-letter in your name, with the xfers shown as foreign-origin, is a good start.  We have to thread a needle of "seeming well off" while at the same time not rubbing it in their faces that we have/can make many times more money in our passport-countries than their salaries (not counting any "extra pay"), which is something they clearly resent and seek to "equalize" when given the opportunity.

The problem as noted the books aren't in my name only they are all held jointly for reason not to be discussed here. One book has a bit over a million baht which was started over 17 years before I even married my wife. Lazy but we never changed the name on this book. This book was used from the beginning 15 years ago when I first applied for my extension it was never a problem.  Then several years later I started another book with my brother name on it which had over a million baht also. I started to use this book and for two years didn't have a problem with the extension. The above goes against what you are noting to me which I don't see in the Immigration guidelines? Then they made a change at the Immigration that is when it was noted the account with my brother won't due but he will let it go this year. That is when I put out the other book with my Thai wife maiden name on it he said to use this book next year. I just smile inside thinking O.K.?  Plus I don't see it noted on the Thai Immigration website that it can only be in your name.

As you can see I've been doing the extension for years even the first year I was never asked for any document to prove the money is from foreign origin, I assume this isn't rocketing science to any Thai " I'm a foreigner applying for a visa extension where else will the money be coming from " again I don't see the requirement on their website. 

As for the 800,000 method, it states that requirement is for a first timer application thereafter so I would assume it would be 2 months only in my case?

 

 

[Media1]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:19 PM, marcusarelus said:

They understand the benefits of living in Thailand and don't need a visa.

it's harder getting a marriage extension lol

[JackThompson]

4 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

The problem as noted the books aren't in my name only they are all held jointly for reason not to be discussed here. ...

I don't see it noted on the Thai Immigration website that it can only be in your name.

 

As you can see I've been doing the extension for years even the first year I was never asked for any document to prove the money is from foreign origin, I assume this isn't rocketing science to any Thai " I'm a foreigner applying for a visa extension where else will the money be coming from " again I don't see the requirement on their website. 

As for the 800,000 method, it states that requirement is for a first timer application thereafter so I would assume it would be 2 months only in my case?

I have read several reports all stating clearly that the account must be in your name only - with an exception being given when a foreign couple (both expats) have double the required-amount in a joint-account.  I am not sure why they allowed you to do this, or if this is common (at some offices only?) so cannot guess as to whether it will be allowed in the future.  We do know that every office seem to be able to make up their own rules.

 

The 2-mo seasoning on 800K is only allowed for a 1st-extension from an initial Non-O stamp.  All subsequent extensions require 3 months seasoning.  The only exceptions I have heard of on this were agent-submitted applications, where the seasoning can be waived entirely (for a hefty-fee).

 

The "money from abroad" requirement is only applicable to getting a Non-O stamp in-country, when one enters on a Tourist-type entry - vs entering the country with a Non-O Visa.  It is not required to show origin of the 800K for annual extensions. 

 

It may be required to show foreign-origin of income, for income-based applications, in the future - but we don't know what will be enforced at various offices or country-wide.

[thailand49]

40 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I have read several reports all stating clearly that the account must be in your name only - with an exception being given when a foreign couple (both expats) have double the required-amount in a joint-account.  I am not sure why they allowed you to do this, or if this is common (at some offices only?) so cannot guess as to whether it will be allowed in the future.  We do know that every office seem to be able to make up their own rules.

 

The 2-mo seasoning on 800K is only allowed for a 1st-extension from an initial Non-O stamp.  All subsequent extensions require 3 months seasoning.  The only exceptions I have heard of on this were agent-submitted applications, where the seasoning can be waived entirely (for a hefty-fee).

 

The "money from abroad" requirement is only applicable to getting a Non-O stamp in-country, when one enters on a Tourist-type entry - vs entering the country with a Non-O Visa.  It is not required to show origin of the 800K for annual extensions. 

 

It may be required to show foreign-origin of income, for income-based applications, in the future - but we don't know what will be enforced at various offices or country-wide.

Thanks for the information as you noted like you I've read reports which might be the reason for the misinformation it isn't stated in by Thai immigration website.

Either way, my objective is to buy another year to see what happens. I will get an affidavit end of this month and apply a month before my extension which will be January 20th, I will apply with the Bank statement with my wife maiden name on it. If it is refused I will pull out the Affidavit and replace it with the bank statement. Then I will know the precise position of the Immigration I use.

When my brother visits in March of next year I will take him and remove his name from our Joint account and also remove the 2 million bahts from Bangkok bank and park it temporarily somewhere else and return it 4 months prior to applying again in 2020. I will pay whatever fee just can't stand nor trust a Thai bank. Both of my checking Debit cards I get all the fees back.

I have invested more than I need or want in Thailand which is more than 75 percent of Thais, of course, that is just in general my opinion not bashing.