LED light flickers when hot water system is in use

[4MyEgo]

My downlight flickers when the hot water system is in use, one down light on a different switch would flicker so I unplugged it as I had another 3 on that circuit, however this one which is on another switch and circuit, same room has started to flicker.

 

Any advice on cause, probables appreciated, ceiling is insulated and there is plenty of room between the downlights, all wiring is covered by either that aluminium casing or pvc piping so as to stop any rats biting into the wires, although the junctions are not, although the wiring is covered by the black electrical tap.

 

I did put in a new LED but same problem so disconnected and left the old one just sitting there in the ceiling. 

[bankruatsteve]

One guess could be that the water heater brings down the voltage and then a water pump cycling on/off (?) would also reduce voltage causing lights appear to flicker.

[Toosetinmyways]

I occasionally have the very same problem. Last time it happened I got the multi meter out and found incoming voltage was 180 volts. Also had two LED lights giving a very light glow when switched off. Found the single pole switch was wired on the neutral line. Changed to live wire and light is off

[johng]

13 minutes ago, Toosetinmyways said:

found the single pole switch was wired on the neutral line.

Can also cause florescent tubes to glow dimly  when "switched off"

[Crossy]

Is it a single flick when the heater starts, or a constant flickering when it is in operation?

 

Do you have a meter to check the voltage when the heater is on?

 

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

Is it a single flick when the heater starts, or a constant flickering when it is in operation?

 

Do you have a meter to check the voltage when the heater is on?

 

It's constantly flickering when the heat starts.

 

I don't have a metre to check the voltage when the heater is on.

 

 

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

It's constantly flickering when the heat starts.

It could be low voltage, but without a meter (yes, it is a meter, a metre is a unit of length) you're not really going to get far. That said, all our LEDS are good down to 90V, so if it's really that bad you may well have noticed other issues.

 

Digital multimeters can be had for a few hundred Baht, even Tesco have them.

 

[4MyEgo]

7 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

One guess could be that the water heater brings down the voltage and then a water pump cycling on/off (?) would also reduce voltage causing lights appear to flicker.

You might be onto something.

 

I turned the water on from the heater, but left the dial off and no flickering

 

* I then turned the dial on to heat and left the water on from the heater and the flickering started

 

I then turned the water off while the dial was on heat and no flickering

 

I then turned the dial to off and left the water on and no flickering

 

The above said as confusing as it is, it appears the pump which is in use when the water is turned on is reducing the voltage somehow ? 

[4MyEgo]

7 minutes ago, Crossy said:

It could be low voltage, but without a meter (yes, it is a meter, a metre is a unit of length) you're not really going to get far. That said, all our LEDS are good down to 90V, so if it's really that bad you may well have noticed other issues.

 

Digital multimeters can be had for a few hundred Baht, even Tesco have them.

 

Thanks Crossy, could you have a look at my reply to Bankruatsteve and let me know your thoughts please. Meter ????

 

Edited November 17, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[sometimewoodworker]

32 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

You might be onto something.

 

I turned the water on from the heater, but left the dial off and no flickering

 

* I then turned the dial on to heat and left the water on from the heater and the flickering started

 

I then turned the water off while the dial was on heat and no flickering

 

I then turned the dial to off and left the water on and no flickering

 

The above said as confusing as it is, it appears the pump which is in use when the water is turned on is reducing the voltage somehow ? 

That isn't really confusing as water pumps are often significant users of power as are water heaters. I get a draw of about 25A when the pump and shower heater are on. And that could easily drop the voltage down. 

 

I'll go and  do a couple of tests and be back soon with results as it's about time for my evening shower anyway.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

8 hours ago, Toosetinmyways said:

I occasionally have the very same problem. Last time it happened I got the multi meter out and found incoming voltage was 180 volts. Also had two LED lights giving a very light glow when switched off. Found the single pole switch was wired on the neutral line. Changed to live wire and light is off

Not electrically minded, although I had a look at the circuit breakers and the pump is 32 amps as is the heater, although the other 2 heaters are running on 16 amps, that said, the light still flickers from the heater which has the highest amp, suffice to say I don't think its an amp problem, but a wiring problem ?

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

That isn't really confusing as water pumps are often significant users of power as are water heaters. I get a draw of about 25A when the pump and shower heater are on. And that could easily drop the voltage down. 

 

I'll go and  do a couple of tests and be back soon with results as it's about time for my evening shower anyway.

 

 

Are you suggesting upping the amps on the circuit breakers, currently 3 heaters one is 32 amps, the other 2 are 16 amps and the pump is 32 amps, or could it be a wiring problem ?

 

It definitely appears to be a power reduction, the heaters being directly hooked up to their own circuit breakers is what gets me, although I suppose if they are sucking big amounts of power with the pump, that will have an overall effect on the light circuits as it is in the kitchen/dining area only.

 

If one went higher in the amps for the heaters and pump, would that solve the problem, again have no idea what I am talking about as I am not electrically minded.

[moontang]

what is the wattage of your heater?  what size is the wire?  Is it a three wire installation?  

Edited November 17, 2018 by moontang

[sometimewoodworker]

OK back from my shower

normal current usage: 2.46A 218v

shower running no heat: 3.60A 217V

Pump + heater set at usual 36 degrees C : 16.80A 209v 

Pump + heater set at cook 39 degrees C : 22.70A 204v

 

so if your voltage is marginal the shower heater is going to pull it a lot lower specially if your main incommers are marginal as well.

[4MyEgo]

19 minutes ago, moontang said:

what is the wattage of your heater?  what size is the wire?  Is it a three wire installation?  

I couldn't really tell you, although I know two of the heaters are 3500w and one 6000w

 

The guy who installed them is coming over tomorrow so we can go over a few things

 

[sometimewoodworker]

26 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Are you suggesting upping the amps on the circuit breakers, currently 3 heaters one is 32 amps, the other 2 are 16 amps and the pump is 32 amps, or could it be a wiring problem ?

 

It definitely appears to be a power reduction, the heaters being directly hooked up to their own circuit breakers is what gets me, although I suppose if they are sucking big amounts of power with the pump, that will have an overall effect on the light circuits as it is in the kitchen/dining area only.

 

If one went higher in the amps for the heaters and pump, would that solve the problem, again have no idea what I am talking about as I am not electrically minded.

Crossy will probably be along soon to explain in more detail but in the meantime I'll have ago.

Changing the breakers will make no difference. They are there to protect the wiring and if they are not tripping they are not a factor.

 

To give a better answer you really need a volt meter as a minimum. Without that there can be many suggestions, some cheap, some not so much and others expensive.

 

To give an example:

How much string and what size do I need to tie up my parcel?

 

Maybe the missing information is a little more obvious?

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Crossy will probably be along soon to explain in more detail but in the meantime I'll have ago.

Changing the breakers will make no difference. They are there to protect the wiring and if they are not tripping they are not a factor.

 

To give a better answer you really need a volt meter as a minimum. Without that there can be many suggestions, some cheap, some not so much and others expensive.

 

To give an example:

How much string and what size do I need to tie up my parcel?

 

Maybe the missing information is a little more obvious?

Thx the circuit breakers are not tripping.

 

I will go out tomorrow and grab me a volt meter and see where we are at, all new to me

[sometimewoodworker]

14 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I couldn't really tell you, although I know two of the heaters are 3500w and one 6000w

 

The guy who installed them is coming over tomorrow so we can go over a few things

 

You probably need to borrow his meter for a few days. ???? he does have a meter doesn't he.

 

Also do you have the same symptoms in the morning, afternoon, and evening?

 

the answer could be a guide.

Edited November 17, 2018 by sometimewoodworker

[4MyEgo]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

You probably need to borrow his meter for a few days. ???? he does have a meter doesn't he.

 

Also do you have the same symptoms in the morning and afternoon?

He doesn't have one, hence the reason I am going to get one.

 

Symptoms are anytime one takes a shower 24/7

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, 4MyEgo said:

He doesn't have one, hence the reason I am going to get one.

 

Symptoms are anytime one takes a shower 24/7

The probable cause of your problem is becoming more clear, but you absolutely need a meter to be sure, and once you have that and have used it there will probably be a few more questions

[moontang]

are you using the heaters simultaneously?  And the a/c?  And do you have 25/75 service?  

[4MyEgo]

Just now, moontang said:

are you using the heaters simultaneously?  And the a/c?  And do you have 25/75 service?  

Sometime 2 heaters might be going, but mainly one at a time, we don't use the a/c's until bedtime for half an hour then let the fans take over.

 

Not sure what 25/75 service means

[4MyEgo]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The probable cause of your problem is becoming more clear, but you absolutely need a meter to be sure, and once you have that and have used it there will probably be a few more questions

Stay tuned till tomorrow ????

[moontang]

25-75 would mean no more than 75 amps at a time.  Make a list of what is running at the same time....I am a DIY...but I usually take on this stuff, myself.  Divide  watts by volts to get Amps....6000/240=25...my guess is an overload for your service...water and electricity do not mix at all...very deadly.  My Panasonic manual says five times:  do not do two wire...I n many Thai stores, that is all they sell.

[sometimewoodworker]

57 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Sometime 2 heaters might be going, but mainly one at a time, we don't use the a/c's until bedtime for half an hour then let the fans take over.

 

Not sure what 25/75 service means

It means that there is a mistake in the question ???? as there is no such supply 

 

the meters available are 

5/15

15/45

30/100

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

The guy who installed them is coming over tomorrow so we can go over a few things

Humm... I'm not really sure you should be getting him involved apart from answering a few questions as he obviously isn't an  electrician.

 

for safety please check if you have been wired with line, neutral and earth, and that if wired that way do you have Earth rod in an area that stays a little damp at all times.

 

and the size of the circuit wiring, it will probably be 2.5 mm square on the smaller showers and 4mm square on the bigger, not too sure on the pump as the breaker seem a bit big but maybe there are other things on that circuit.

 

None of that should be related to the problem, but  they are things that you need to know.

Edited November 17, 2018 by sometimewoodworker

[4MyEgo]

10 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Humm... I'm not really sure you should be getting him involved apart from answering a few questions as he obviously isn't an  electrician.

 

for safety please check if you have been wired with line, neutral and earth, and that if wired that way do you have Earth rod in an area that stays a little damp at all times.

 

and the size of the circuit wiring, it will probably be 2.5 mm square on the smaller showers and 4mm square on the bigger, not too sure on the pump as the breaker seem a bit big but maybe there are other things on that circuit.

 

None of that should be related to the problem, but  they are things that you need to know.

I should have been a little more clearer, the same guy who installed the heaters is the same guy that wired the entire house and knows his stuff, although not in the qualified sense of the word, i.e. a piece of paper.

 

That said I used to inspect builders works in progress on site at stages to sign off on the work, before further funds could be released for the project, and if it wasn't up to scratch they wouldn't be getting additional funds until the works were rectified, that said, his work is 110% in whatever he applies his skill too and is the only bloke between here and cooee that I will allow to work on our place, in other words I have had a couple of qualified guys in early in the peace and have showed them the door quick smart, qualified my a$$, maybe in Thai standards but back in AUS we have a high standard when it comes to tradesmen who are qualified and I adhere to that here.

[BritManToo]

13 hours ago, Crossy said:

That said, all our LEDS are good down to 90V,

Mine too!

 

@OP, I suspect live and neutral are reversed somewhere in the house, probably the shower heater.

or the shower heater wires aren't connected tightly enough.

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by BritManToo

[4MyEgo]

10 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Mine too!

 

@OP, I suspect live and neutral are reversed somewhere in the house, probably the shower heater.

or the shower heater wires aren't connected tightly enough.

 

Thx, that's plain English for me to understand, will get him to have a look at that as a starter and see how that pans out.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

I should have been a little more clearer, the same guy who installed the heaters is the same guy that wired the entire house and knows his stuff, although not in the qualified sense of the word, i.e. a piece of paper.

Really? A good workman who knows enough too do the "plumbing" bits of the wiring. There are quite a lot of people like that,the people who wired my house were like that, but then I needed a professional to fix the things they didn't understand.

 

But not really good enough for trouble shooting or safety it seems. How can he be as he doesn't even have the most basic of tools (a meter)

 

Quote

 

The following shows the cables sizes for the appropriate circuit breaker;

 

1.5 mm2 cable - 15 amp maximum circuit breaker.

2.5 mm2 cable - 20 amp maximum circuit breaker.

4 mm2 cable - 25 amp maximum circuit breaker.

6 mm2 cable - 32 amp maximum circuit breaker.

10 mm2 cable - 40 amp maximum circuit breaker.

 

 

 

The basic Bible as far as diy electrical wiring.