5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

PR is a requirement now. New UKIP can be the UK's Fascist Party. We can tip all the nutters in there where they can be kept and eye on by Robinson AND MI5. Good idea.

 

The EU countries have parties for nutters, why can't we?

 

 

So there were 3,900,0000 Fascist voters in 2015 ?

 

 

 

The inadequacies of the Tories and Labour continue to leave a vacuum; a middle ground party would do well.

https://www.indy100.com/article/uk-election-map-proportional-representation-system-2017-conservative-labour-7784956

 

I wondered why you didn't give the 2017 GE results under PR!

 

Vogie, that's rather naughty! Sadly that is how Brexit supporters seem to prefer to operate.

 

We can see that UKIP would have 12 seats, far behind the Libs with 48 seats giving them the balance of power and thus avoiding this calamitous Brexit.

 

Thanks for pointing this out Vogie!

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by Grouse

1 minute ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

So there were 3,900,0000 Fascist voters in 2015 ?

 

 

 

The inadequacies of the Tories and Labour continue to leave a vacuum; a middle ground party would do well.

Yes to all

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes to all

 

You have made some stupid posts but this tops the lot if you think that UKIP, in 2015, only attracted Fascist voters.

4 minutes ago, LucysDad said:

 

You have made some stupid posts but this tops the lot if you think that UKIP, in 2015, only attracted Fascist voters.

Look up a definition of Facist 

 

I stand by my comment with the proviso that I accept some UKIP supporters didn't understand what they were voting for!

3 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

As for putting their future in jeopardy. Again pure speculation. Leaving the EU from its bondage and stranglehold is liberation fro many. Often something remain, EU lovers just can't understand ever.

You are quite right, many that prefer to remain will never understand the emotional attraction of the unknown. Do you really believe that outside the EU the UK can maintain its position as the 5th largest economy. I suspect that for many, including those that preferred to remain, 'liberation' will be from income rather than 'bondage and stranglehold'.

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Quite right and if we had adopted the proportional rep system UKIP would have 82 seats and would have made it the third largest party.

 

What kind of PR is this?

Treating UK as one big constituency?

 

OK for illustrations with a smile,

but hardly a way in which UK would be structured if PR were to be introduced.

 

 

A good post from a comments section.

 

A reasonable majority for far-reaching constitutional change that is adopted in some countries is a minimum of 60% of the vote plus a minimum of 50% of eligible voters. This procedure ensures both a majority that denies an interpretation of an even for-and-against outcome and ensures a level of voter participation that denies an interpretation that only a minority of the country contributed to the vote for change. Both together provide legitimacy for enactment of a far-reaching change. In countries that have devolved regional governments, a majority of the regions is a third necessary condition. Where there is an even number of regions, and an equal number of regions votes for as against, the vote for change fails. In Australia the regions are Australia’s eight states and territories; in Switzerland the regions are Switzerland’s 26 cantons. On all three "usual" requirements for a referendum to be considered valid for the enactment of constitutional change, the UK vote fails.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-vote-commons-parliament-yvette-cooper-nick-boles-amendments-backstop-a8748131.html

Just now, sandyf said:

You are quite right, many that prefer to remain will never understand the emotional attraction of the unknown. Do you really believe that outside the EU the UK can maintain its position as the 5th largest economy. I suspect that for many, including those that preferred to remain, 'liberation' will be from income rather than 'bondage and stranglehold'.

I believe that the UK may or may not be the 5th largest economy. it doesn't matter. As for the many reasons I have mentioned before getting out of the corrupt, federalisation of the EU is vital. The UK can in my belief even surpass the 5th Biggest economy. The EU stifles trade in many ways and is a protectionist club. If the EU was transparent, and not hell bent on its federalised policy then it would probably get more support from the UK. 43 years of it and people have had enough. It is the last statement many just can accept.

7 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I believe that the UK may or may not be the 5th largest economy. it doesn't matter. As for the many reasons I have mentioned before getting out of the corrupt, federalisation of the EU is vital. The UK can in my belief even surpass the 5th Biggest economy. The EU stifles trade in many ways and is a protectionist club. If the EU was transparent, and not hell bent on its federalised policy then it would probably get more support from the UK. 43 years of it and people have had enough. It is the last statement many just can accept.

There is no dispute the EU stifles trade in some areas, the UK would much rather sell its weapons without the EU sitting on its shoulder. On the other hand the EU single market opened the door to many companies that would never have exported and have done more for consumers than any UK government ever contemplated. Make no mistake, brexit, in whatever form it takes, will com as an expense to the consumer which some may see as quite acceptable.

At the end of the day, can only agree to disagree.

May has announced to cabinet office that she will not allow UK to leave with no deal. However she will not state this publicaly according Radio Midnight news. Good.

She also said “Brexit means Brexit” and “No Deal is better than a bad deal”
Whatever she says means nothing.


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2 hours ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

So there were 3,900,0000 Fascist voters in 2015 ?

 

 

 

The inadequacies of the Tories and Labour continue to leave a vacuum; a middle ground party would do well.

Which party do you have in mind for the middle ground? Good for Blairite Labour types, one nation Tory wets, Libs and Dems. AND me.

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Which party do you have in mind for the middle ground? Good for Blairite Labour types, one nation Tory wets, Libs and Dems. AND me.

 

 

Disappointed that you didn't mention the Lib Dems..... what a bl00dy waste of time they are.

 

 

UKIP without the right-wing nutters would suit me.

 

 

Blairite Labour is a long gone phenomenon that occurs once or twice a century..... right person, right place, right time.

 

 

1 minute ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

Disappointed that you didn't mention the Lib Dems..... what a bl00dy waste of time they are.

 

 

UKIP without the right-wing nutters would suit me.

 

 

Blairite Labour is a long gone phenomenon that occurs once or twice a century..... right person, right place, right time.

 

 

The Lib Dems were not a waste of time in the coalition. They have the right ideas now and you will see that at the next election. The Tories are dead and Corbyn is unelectable

2 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

What kind of PR is this?

Treating UK as one big constituency?

 

OK for illustrations with a smile,

but hardly a way in which UK would be structured if PR were to be introduced.

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

 

Voted down by ignorant peasants. The map shows Oxford, Cambridge and most of London in favour. This would have given us system closer to other European countries. Much more civilized. It would avoid centrists like me feeling disenfranchised.

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

 

Voted down by ignorant peasants. The map shows Oxford, Cambridge and most of London in favour. This would have given us system closer to other European countries. Much more civilized. It would avoid centrists like me feeling disenfranchised.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/may/06/reasons-av-referendum-lost

 

And here is why it was voted down ????

17 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The Lib Dems were not a waste of time in the coalition. They have the right ideas now and you will see that at the next election. The Tories are dead and Corbyn is unelectable

 

 

God help us if that leaves the Lib Dems (who have also proved to be unelectable).

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum

 

Voted down by ignorant peasants. The map shows Oxford, Cambridge and most of London in favour. This would have given us system closer to other European countries. Much more civilized. It would avoid centrists like me feeling disenfranchised.

ta Grouse, did spend some time perusing and digesting this

what can I say, this is not less than frightening

 

I don't think UK has much of a promising future, regardless of remaining / exiting

you quite simply do not have a political system able to handle modern complex

problems in reasonable harmony with the plebs

 

and, the Brits are bloody proud of it - quite a challenge

 

consolation re peasants:

they make beef Wellington possible

they make roast beef and Yorkshire pudding possible

(even haggis, but we forget that)

roast Turkey with this and that < -- peasants

 

so,  a certain presence of peasants is desirable

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

ta Grouse, did spend some time perusing and digesting this

what can I say, this is not less than frightening

 

I don't think UK has much of a promising future, regardless of remaining / exiting

you quite simply do not have a political system able to handle modern complex

problems in reasonable harmony with the plebs

 

and, the Brits are bloody proud of it - quite a challenge

 

consolation re peasants:

they make beef Wellington possible

they make roast beef and Yorkshire pudding possible

(even haggis, but we forget that)

roast Turkey with this and that < -- peasants

 

so,  a certain presence of peasants is desirable

 

 

 

I particularly like peasants at Christmas and on my birthday.

1 hour ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

God help us if that leaves the Lib Dems (who have also proved to be unelectable).

As you clearly would prefer UKIP, I fully understand your stance.

 

Is Lucysmum more balanced? I do hope so. 

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by Grouse

15 minutes ago, Grouse said:

As you clearly would prefer UKIP, I fully understand your stance.

 

Is Lucysmum more balanced? I do hope so. 

At the moment there is very little to chose between the Lib Dems and UKIP, both are spent forces, the one thing that UKIP had going for it was Nigel Farage, the Lib Dems have Vince Cable who has about as much charisma has a month old kipper. Do not forget many of the Lib Dems voters were in the heartlands of leave, and they wonder why they cannot get any votes.

PR is a requirement now. New UKIP can be the UK's Fascist Party. We can tip all the nutters in there where they can be kept and eye on by Robinson AND MI5. Good idea.
 
The EU countries have parties for nutters, why can't we?

Facist is the overused default insult of the political left for anybody who doesn’t agree with them. Many other “...ists” too.
Sooner or later that badge will be worn with pride for saving the UK from the PC leftists. That could still be UKIP, or even another party. Let’s see when it’s next put to the test.

As a Superiority Delusionist, plebs having an equal vote and beating the Elitists has you in a right old tizzy. I’m lovin’ it.


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7 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

A Mickey Mouse party that took 11 million votes at the GE and lead by Nigel Farage that was instrumental in David Cameron calling for a referendum and sticking to it this time. They were taken very seriously indeed, at that time. Not now though.

UKIP were very good at tapping into peoples paranoia.  That was there MO and it worked well. But they were never a party of anything other than getting the UK out of the EU.  Farage was a Euro MP having a private battle with Brussels but when it came to it couldn't even get elected as an MP in Britain.  A one trick pony and once the trick was done the party fell apart.  They had nothing else to offer apart from a few right wing nutcases.  They became a laughing stock even though they were never funny. 

UKIP were very good at tapping into peoples paranoia.  That was there MO and it worked well. But they were never a party of anything other than getting the UK out of the EU.  Farage was a Euro MP having a private battle with Brussels but when it came to it couldn't even get elected as an MP in Britain.  A one trick pony and once the trick was done the party fell apart.  They had nothing else to offer apart from a few right wing nutcases.  They became a laughing stock even though they were never funny. 

So the one trick pony took the whole country to a referendum, which the electorate returned as a majority Leave. The left and MSM loved the smears and poking fun, but the voters took them seriously and UKIP won.
To paraphrase Nigel Farage to the EU the day after winning: “We came here and you all laughed at us. Well you’re not laughing now are you?”



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19 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

UKIP were very good at tapping into peoples paranoia.  That was there MO and it worked well. But they were never a party of anything other than getting the UK out of the EU.  Farage was a Euro MP having a private battle with Brussels but when it came to it couldn't even get elected as an MP in Britain.  A one trick pony and once the trick was done the party fell apart.  They had nothing else to offer apart from a few right wing nutcases.  They became a laughing stock even though they were never funny. 

The UK elitist government are the paranoid ones, they

watch and spy and control everything, even free speech

does not exist, democracy has evolved into tyranny with

poverty.  Just across the Chanel the French are kicking

off and the elites are getting worried. The days of the

elite and their EU totalitarianism are looking shaky.

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

As you clearly would prefer UKIP, I fully understand your stance.

 

Is Lucysmum more balanced? I do hope so. 

 

 

Lucy's step Mum will vote for whichever party gives her 500 Baht ????

 

 

Lucy's birth mother is scared crapless of Labour (Corbyn) getting in, thinks Lib Dems are powderpuff and the Tories are past their sell by date.

 

Therefore, she is in the group of many millions looking for the popular void to be filled.

 

I don't give a tinker's cuss what you think about Farage (I am not his biggest fan) but he could be just the person to galvanise those disenfranchised millions. UKIP may not now be the best vehicle for the purpose.  2017 vs 2015 ..... did UKIP voters switch to Labour ?... I find that hard to believe. 'c'onservative voters switching back I can understand.,

 

England vote share after 533 of 533 seats

Party	%
CON Conservative	45.6
LAB Labour	41.9
LD Liberal Democrat	7.8
UKIP UKIP	2.1
GRN Green Party	1.9
YRKS The Yorkshire Party	0.1

England vote share change since 2015 after 533 of 533 seats

−%

+%

 

LAB Labour

+10.3

 

CON Conservative

+4.6

 

YRKS The Yorkshire Party

+0.1

 

LD Liberal Democrat

-0.4

 

GRN Green Party

-2.3

 

UKIP UKIP

-12.1

 

 

1 hour ago, LucysDad said:

 

 

Lucy's step Mum will vote for whichever party gives her 500 Baht ????

 

 

Lucy's birth mother is scared crapless of Labour (Corbyn) getting in, thinks Lib Dems are powderpuff and the Tories are past their sell by date.

 

Therefore, she is in the group of many millions looking for the popular void to be filled.

 

I don't give a tinker's cuss what you think about Farage (I am not his biggest fan) but he could be just the person to galvanise those disenfranchised millions. UKIP may not now be the best vehicle for the purpose.  2017 vs 2015 ..... did UKIP voters switch to Labour ?... I find that hard to believe. 'c'onservative voters switching back I can understand.,

 

England vote share after 533 of 533 seats

Party	%
CON Conservative	45.6
LAB Labour	41.9
LD Liberal Democrat	7.8
UKIP UKIP	2.1
GRN Green Party	1.9
YRKS The Yorkshire Party	0.1

England vote share change since 2015 after 533 of 533 seats

−%

+%

 

LAB Labour

+10.3

 

CON Conservative

+4.6

 

YRKS The Yorkshire Party

+0.1

 

LD Liberal Democrat

-0.4

 

GRN Green Party

-2.3

 

UKIP UKIP

-12.1

 

 

I don't understand your numbers; 533 seats ? Is it a bus? Is it a plane?

 

oh, I see. Engurland seats! I guess Brexit is an Ingurland issue.

 

Labour coalition with Lib Dems and Greens then!

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by Grouse

2 hours ago, Loiner said:

So the one trick pony took the whole country to a referendum, which the electorate returned as a majority Leave. The left and MSM loved the smears and poking fun, but the voters took them seriously and UKIP won.
To paraphrase Nigel Farage to the EU the day after winning: “We came here and you all laughed at us. Well you’re not laughing now are you?”



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UKIP won!  Get real, the leave campaign won and they wouldn't share a platform with UKIP or their so called leader.  Johnson and his boys did everything they could to distance themselves from Farage and his ridiculous statements.

 

But it's simple enough, you take a lot of unhappy people, appeal to their paranoia and you will get votes.  Same thing happened in the USA with Trump.  The difference there is that Trump actually managed to get elected whereas Farage has always been an also ran, trying to latch on to the real politicians but getting snubbed by them.

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

I don't understand your numbers; 533 seats ? Is it a bus? Is it a plane?

 

oh, I see. Engurland seats! I guess Brexit is an Ingurland issue.

 

Labour coalition with Lib Dems and Greens then!

 

 

Great evidence of a remainer's incapability to assimilate what has been presented to them...

 

The figures clearly state England and represent the swings between parties in 533 of the 650 seats.

 

 

Now, what is difficult about that.

 

 

Coalition and Green Party are not words/phrases that should be used together..... GP's 1 seat is not that valuable.

On 1/27/2019 at 9:34 AM, sandyf said:

Not trying to say that at all, you are free to believe that it would be a logical move to change from an environment that created the 5th largest economy into the unknown. As I said logic does not come into it, it was an emotional decision.

 

Why should any nation as resourceful as ours wish to remain in a toxic environment which created the economic basket cases that are Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy?

 

One reason the EU is so anxious to retain our membership is for the financial contribution we would be called on to make to bail out the ailing Italian banking system when it finally hits the wall.

 

Edited January 28, 20197 yr by Krataiboy