3 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

I don't particularly like Trump's style but he's doing the right thing putting his foot down for the wall.

By shutting the border.?

 

sounds like he will deny US citizens freedom of travel to or from Mexico, in doing this.... So much for the much lauded constitution.

 

folk voicing support of a complete border closure are supporting the government restrictions on their freedom... so much for the land of the free.

16 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Mmm.... they do exactly what they are meant to do.

excellent answertoo bad trampers will not get it.

19 minutes ago, farcanell said:

trumps wall falls squarely into catorgory three... symbolic

What would a concrete wall  along the southern border symbolise? 

30 minutes ago, farcanell said:

I can’t think of a single instance were a wall alone has stopped an invasion... not one

You didn't think hard enough. From http://blog.tutorming.com/expats/was-the-great-wall-china-effective-did-it-work

"Of course, not all horseback invasions were stopped, and there have been instances of nomadic people breaching the wall. However, one could argue that without the wall, China would’ve been invaded far more times if the wall hadn’t been there."

 

And, in fact, we're not talking invasion here. Illegal entry by undesirables is what it is. And in this case walls have proved themselves, see Israel.

 

As others have pointed out, Israel's security concerns are much more than ours. But the fact remains Israel's walls have dramatically reduced unsanctioned entry.

 

And a "wall", not necessarily concrete but some form of significant physical barrier like a fortified fence, is not that expensive to build, see Russia in Crimea at the Ukrainian border, Hungary at the Serb-Croat border. Neither of the two are particularly rich and the fences were put up pretty quickly and appear to be effective.

 

Edited December 29, 20187 yr by Bang Bang

Waiting for the Canadian wall, just the matter of time now. 

Edited December 29, 20187 yr by Hummin

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Im just waiting for the Canadian wall, just the matter of time now. 

Nah, Trudeau's a pussy cat. Pretty though. But if the US gets any more polarized then expect a northward tsunami of political refugees after 2020.

Edited December 29, 20187 yr by Bang Bang

2 hours ago, bristolboy said:

At what is most likely a tremendous cost. But one they are willing to pay because the people crossing mean them harm. 

Illegal immigration to the USA has already declined dramatically. What is the cost vs. benefit of building a wall?

You would think from the claims of pro wall parties that the US has open borders.

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/06/674434725/new-southwest-border-arrests-jump-78-percent-in-november

 

I believe the new term is asylum seeker.

3 minutes ago, Bang Bang said:

You didn't think hard enough. From http://blog.tutorming.com/expats/was-the-great-wall-china-effective-did-it-work

"Of course, not all horseback invasions were stopped, and there have been instances of nomadic people breaching the wall. However, one could argue that without the wall, China would’ve been invaded far more times if the wall hadn’t been there."

 

And, in fact, we're not talking invasion here. Illegal entry by undesirables is what it is. And in this case walls have proved themselves, see Israel.

 

As others have pointed out, Israel's security concerns are much more than ours. But the fact remains Israel's walls have dramatically reduced unsanctioned entry.

 

And a "wall", not necessarily concrete but some form of significant physical barrier like a fortified fence, is not that expensive to build, see Russia in Crimea at the Ukrainian border, Hungary at the Serb-Croat border. Neither of the two are particularly rich and the fences were put up pretty quickly and appear to be effective.

 

????????????????... wait... wait...????????????

 

so i didnt think hard enough? Lmao... or more correctly, you didn’t comprehend my comment (as reposted by yourself), but that doesn’t surprise, given what ive seen posted above.

 

let me help.... I said, and you quoted...  “ I can’t think of a single instance when a wall alone has stopped an invasion... not one”

 

And from the same post, immediately preceding the cherrypicked statement above;

 

46 minutes ago, farcanell said:

border walls are intended as a barrier to slow down “invaders”, such that countermeasures can be deployed.

 

Lol and then you went ahead and posted a link which verified my comment... ???????????? thanks for the help there  

 

http://blog.tutorming.com/expats/was-the-great-wall-china-effective-did-it-work

 

. “It was more like a line of guard posts that helped spread signals to warn of invasions and draw in reinforcement troops.”

2 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Hmm, let's see: even at the very lowest monthly apprehensions are about 25k. Times 12 that's 300k illegals in a good year, going up easily to a 1,000,000 per year as the graph swings up.

 

Excellent argument for a wall. I had no idea we needed one this much.

Only if you assume that a wall will prevent them from using ladders....

39 minutes ago, candide said:

Only if you assume that a wall will prevent them from using ladders....

Come on. You're not serious are you? Carry a 30ft ladder through rugged terrain or carry in the parts and assemble next to the wall? That's a significant physical operation with high chance of being detected. And then, of course, is the issue of getting down the other side ...

 

Look, ain't nobody saying a wall is foolproof. But it is a major deterrent and, more importantly, a force multiplier for the security system, manned and automated, already in place.

36 minutes ago, Bang Bang said:

Come on. You're not serious are you? Carry a 30ft ladder through rugged terrain or carry in the parts and assemble next to the wall? That's a significant physical operation with high chance of being detected. And then, of course, is the issue of getting down the other side ...

 

Look, ain't nobody saying a wall is foolproof. But it is a major deterrent and, more importantly, a force multiplier for the security system, manned and automated, already in place.

Interesting business idea for an enterprising mexican entrepreneur........   

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

if you think about it you have 2,000 miles of wall.

 

You really need 2 people per 1 mile of wall which is 6,000 people per 8 hour shift, so now you need 18,000 people just for the wall. you need to add another 6,000 people to cover holidays, sickness etc plus mobile backup. Now you have 24,000 staff and you will need many layers of management, say another 6,000 people.

 

Now to manage these 30,000 people you will need ancillary staff such as motor engineers, medical staff, comms staff, armourers, cooks, cleaners and their admin staff as well. Say another 6,000.

 

Now you are up to 36,000 staff. How many vehicles of all types, weapons, radios etc will you need for that? Well each on duty guard will need a vehicle, so will the supervisors at every level, the higher up you go the better the vehicle.

 

There will need to be barracks built, sports centres, jails for the people they catch, courts and court officials medical centres, translators on a 3 shift system.

 

You will also need, power, food and water to supply this empire.

 

Now you have built an empire.

 

One thing I didn't mention was the salaries. When you are an empire builder the government will supply all this so no worries there.

 

Anyway, Mexico will pay for the wall. After all Trump said so and he would never lie, would he.

maybe they can employ the illegal immigrants.

6 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

How do I explain this? Have you ever lived in a house? If you have you would know right away the utility of walls. They keep the neighbors from wandering in and falling asleep on your couch, bad people from sneaking up and helping themselves to your stuff, not to mention allowing you to do all kinds of kinky stuff with your partner without outsiders shining a light and pointing and laughing.

 

Some people who live in houses even have two sets of walls - one part of the house and the other around their property. Paranoid maybe but you'll not find a celebrity or wealthy person without them.

 

Military establishments are secured with with physical barriers as are other institutions where security is important, like nuclear power plants, prisons.

 

Do not mock walls. They are humble, plain-looking and do exactly what they are meant to.

Haha Haha... you nailed it!!

 

A person would need to be an Einstien-level genius to be able to break into a house with... WALLS!

 

Oh shizzle, wait a second, your average meth-head with a high IQ of about 30 can circumvent "walls".

Winning idea!!

6 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

And, how many guards are needed without a barrier? Why did we build the existing barriers? Why do we maintain the existing barriers? According to you and many others a barrier is not necessary. 

"And, how many guards are needed without a barrier?"

 

About the same as with a WALL (cummon, own it!)

 

Physical barriers are logical in limited high-traffic areas.

6 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

True. But how many guards would you need to man a walled boundary vs. an unwalled one? An unwalled border 2000 miles long is basically no border but a come-hither look from a naked, dripping, well, rich country.

 

 

Same amount of personnel. They would be supported by video surveillance with infrared and heat-sensing capabilities. Far more cost effective and just as secure.

6 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Arrivals by plane have their passports/entry recorded are (theoretically) trackable. Those that swim the Rio Grande are not. The latter need to be kept out. Period.

Wait a second. I thought ALL illegals were bad. Now there is different classes of illegals and some are worse than others? Can you supply a link to 45's white paper on this issue? I need to read-up.

6 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Well, the Israelis seem to have made that danged 4th century doohickey work. And is there a more security-minded people then those sons of guns?

 

Not to mention that the Israelis possess the most advanced tech in terms of drones and monitors and such gizmos. And yet they build themselves nice long walls. Would you believe that?

Isreali's have an elaborate wartime defence system, of which, a wall is a small (and least effective) part.

5 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

So, you are saying benign illegals should be tolerated and not really be thought illegal?

No. He was saying there is an obvious difference between armed combatants in a war zone and migrants, refugees, and asylum-seekers.

5 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Well, then make that official. If their skills are needed, be it in picking veggies or washing dishes or whatever, give them a way to come in legally and be employed legally. Ain't nobody going to complain.

Apparently this simple solution went right over 45's head. All he had to do was introduce legislation anytime in the last 2 yrs while the GOP held Congress and Senate.

 

Winning.

6 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

How do I explain this? Have you ever lived in a house? If you have you would know right away the utility of walls. They keep the neighbors from wandering in and falling asleep on your couch, bad people from sneaking up and helping themselves to your stuff, not to mention allowing you to do all kinds of kinky stuff with your partner without outsiders shining a light and pointing and laughing.

 

Some people who live in houses even have two sets of walls - one part of the house and the other around their property. Paranoid maybe but you'll not find a celebrity or wealthy person without them.

 

Military establishments are secured with with physical barriers as are other institutions where security is important, like nuclear power plants, prisons.

 

Do not mock walls. They are humble, plain-looking and do exactly what they are meant to.

“Do not mock walls. They are humble, plain-looking and do exactly what they are meant to.“

 

Except they don’t.

 

As house break-ins demonstrate.

 

And as Bin Laden, hiding in a walled compound within a military base discovered to his cost.

 

If the Mediterranean Sea can’t stop migrants, and it doesn’t, a poxy wall won’t.

How about the environmental impact of 400 miles of a wall?

 

2 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Come on. You're not serious are you? Carry a 30ft ladder through rugged terrain or carry in the parts and assemble next to the wall? That's a significant physical operation with high chance of being detected. And then, of course, is the issue of getting down the other side ...

 

Look, ain't nobody saying a wall is foolproof. But it is a major deterrent and, more importantly, a force multiplier for the security system, manned and automated, already in place.

Come on. Only 30 feet? 

2 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

Come on. You're not serious are you? Carry a 30ft ladder through rugged terrain or carry in the parts and assemble next to the wall? That's a significant physical operation

Yeah. Way to difficult for someone who has uprooted their family and trekked a couple of thousand kms by foot in a desperate attempt to reach what they perceive as the promised land. No way would they attempt to circumvent a WALL!! ????????????

7 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

True. But how many guards would you need to man a walled boundary vs. an unwalled one? An unwalled border 2000 miles long is basically no border but a come-hither look from a naked, dripping, well, rich country.

 

 

Ever heard of sensors and surveillance cameras?

You could even chuck up a few drones. You know.......those thingies the military uses for spotting enemies on the battle-field.

Edited December 29, 20187 yr by Joe Mcseismic

Probably the cheapest and most cost effective method would be wooden signs every hundred metres saying Danger - Mine Field.

Edited December 29, 20187 yr by Joe Mcseismic

9 hours ago, bristolboy said:

Walls aren't worth much without guards. All the examples you cited have guards of one sort or another. Without them, walls are just easily scaleable physical objects. As others have pointed out. A wall that's nearly 2000 miles long is going to need a lot of guards. For a situation that is barely a patch on what it was just a few years ago. Illegal immigration from the southern border has drastically declined. Why spend so much to gain so little?

The Inner German Border, the wall separating West and East Germany was 866 miles long, and required a force of 50,000 border guards (East German) to ensure it remained uncrossable. That figure is with a shoot to kill policy against anyone attempting to cross, and very significant restrictions on people's freedom of  movement when approaching the wall and preparing to cross it. Granted it was built to keep people in rather than out, (people still worked out ways to get through), but the principle of a barrier to cross having to be guarded remains. The "Great Wall of Trumpton" will be some 2000 miles long.

 

It is a military principle that, unless an obstacle is "covered by fire", in this case let us substitute guarded and patrolled, it is an inconvenience rather than an obstacle!

 

Drones and surveillance devices are jolly useful, but you still need physical guards to respond to them. Of course the East Germans found minefields, hungry savage dogs on long chains, and automatic shotguns set off by tripwires (SM70s) to be quite effective as well. I wonder if...

Edited December 30, 20187 yr by JAG

Subcontract to North Korea..they do the job correctly.????


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Don’t think Donald can get away with closing the border his own party will stop him to much money being made 

8 hours ago, bristolboy said:

specs are here:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/03/18/whats-next-trumps-border-wall-designs-start-now-construction-planned-june/99371828/

Did you read it? 2 options suggested . I being solid concrete, second materials not specified ????

7 hours ago, farangx said:

That makes it $150 million for the whole wall.  No way that is going to happen.  There are billions to be made here, barbed wires alone can be valued at over a billion. ???? Plus the option to increase the costs to $10 billion.  ????

 

You know what they say , beggars can not be chosers ????????

8 hours ago, direction BANGKOK said:

The facts are astounding.

 

Pres candidate claims he will build a wall and have Mexico pay for it. 

 

Pres elect then scuttles his own plan and calls for a govt shutdown to fund his wall, the one he stated would be funded by Mexico. 

 

Pres elect then blames the shutdown on dems after having publicly stated he would take responsibility for it. 

 

And the story here, in the middle of his own fiasco he widens demands. 

No, the story hasn't ended there, as the Pres is now blaming Democrats for the death of two migrant kids on the border. You really can't make this sh!t up! 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/29/politics/donald-trump-border-deaths-democrats/index.html