Disappearing democracy

[HalfLight]

1 hour ago, ballpoint said:

They found it less messy to fund and arrange multiple coups and wars elsewhere, including Thailand, in order to support their ideology and place in the world order.

That's certainly true. Whenever the USA criticises other countries for medding in the affairs of other nations, I try to supress an ironic giggle. Even Ukraine, where the CIA fostered a coup (if I have my recollections in order).

 

The USA has now elected a president completely suited to the national psyche. In my opinion. Forget Reagan, forget Dubya, now they have the real deal. A real-estate salesman. Oh my...

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by HalfLight

[sjaak327]

Hmm , so whoever did this took a page from Chuwit's book. Making things disappear in the middle of the night. 

[HalfLight]

1 minute ago, sjaak327 said:

Hmm , so whoever did this took a page from Chuwit's book. Making things disappear in the middle of the night. 

Chuwit; poacher turned gamekeeper, a clever man imho. I only wish he had the good sense to consult me as to whom to disappear next. But, alas...

 

 

 

[Monomial]

2 hours ago, HalfLight said:

 

I could take the point more seriously if you could tell me when the last coup détat by the army took place in UK or USA.

 

 

 

 

I believe that would be around the 1920's in the US when the government finished violently putting down the dissenting voices of the native American population.  And if you don't consider native Americans people, then 1865.

 

For the last 100 years nobody has dared to question the central authority, but give it time. Civil wars are coming to America again. It just hasn't gotten bad enough yet. Whether you call it a coup, revolution or civil war is only a matter of definition and largely immaterial. It is basically one group with guns deciding their will be done.

 

American "democracy" is not so fantastic that I would call it better than what is in Thailand. Merely different.

 

 

[HalfLight]

3 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

I believe that would be around the 1920's in the US when the government finished violently putting down the dissenting voices of the native American population.  And if you don't consider native Americans people, then 1865.

 

For the last 100 years nobody has dared to question the central authority, but give it time. Civil wars are coming to America again. It just hasn't gotten bad enough yet. Whether you call it a coup, revolution or civil war is only a matter of definition and largely immaterial. It is basically one group with guns deciding their will be done.

 

American "democracy" is not so fantastic that I would call it better than what is in Thailand. Merely different.

 

 

 

Indeed I do consider native Americans to be people, but that was well before the "send me your poor, your homeless, your criminals" campaign that (imho) is still the canker at the heart of the 'shining city on a hill'. Weird how many undeserving people consider themselves to be a shining light to everyone else... shortage of good quality mirrors maybe...

 

 

 

[Oziex1]

42 minutes ago, Monomial said:

 

I believe that would be around the 1920's in the US when the government finished violently putting down the dissenting voices of the native American population.  And if you don't consider native Americans people, then 1865.

 

For the last 100 years nobody has dared to question the central authority, but give it time. Civil wars are coming to America again. It just hasn't gotten bad enough yet. Whether you call it a coup, revolution or civil war is only a matter of definition and largely immaterial. It is basically one group with guns deciding their will be done.

 

American "democracy" is not so fantastic that I would call it better than what is in Thailand. Merely different.

 

 

Isn't the American peoples right to bare arms about keeping it's Govt on it's toes.  Noble ideal, sad about the mass shootings.

[greeneking]

thread title made me think a moment about this one.

It would be the biggie and the one a certain person would most want to go.

it really could be the tipping point if it ever was threatened.  But could anyone tell someone, 'Don't do it.'

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by greeneking
clearer photo

[greeneking]

[Aussieroaming]

Democracy is dead here

[zzaa09]

39 minutes ago, Aussieroaming said:

Democracy is dead here

Everywhere, actually.

 

As if it was truly attained anywhere.

Deeper exploration for the  Eurocentric apologists and fantasists.

[Eric Loh]

18 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Everywhere, actually.

 

As if it was truly attained anywhere.

Deeper exploration for the  Eurocentric apologists and fantasists.

Let me see. The other political systems are monarchy, communism and dictatorship. No need for deep exploration. Easy choice. Better survival chance in democracy. 

[bangrak]

12 hours ago, Lacessit said:

These are only symbols. For all their faults, democracy was extinguished when the Shinawatras were booted out.

'Lacessit': wow, you did it: associate 'democracy' and the Shins in one sentence... When you've not been brainwashed, you must know that when and if the Shins would have been working towards 'democracy' (instead of abusing the word for their power...and profit only), there might not have been any 'coup' in 2006 or 2014, or for sure it wouldn't have had the massive popular support both had! Disliking military dictatorship is not per se implying one feels any sympathy for the Shin vampires!

Edited January 5, 2019 by bangrak

[JAG]

5 minutes ago, bangrak said:

'Lacessit': wow, you did it: associate 'democracy' and the Shins in one sentence... When you've not been brainwashed, you must know that when and if the Shins would have been working towards 'democracy' (instead of abusing the word for their power...and profit only), there might not have been any 'coup' in 2006 or 2014, or for sure it wouldn't have had the massive popular support both had! Disliking military dictatorship is not per se implying one feels any sympathy for the Shin vampires!

Is it Groundhog Day?

[sjaak327]

59 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Everywhere, actually.

 

As if it was truly attained anywhere.

Deeper exploration for the  Eurocentric apologists and fantasists.

Democracy is alive and well the world over. And there is ample evidence to suggest it beats the hell out of any other alternative. Yes even in Thailand. Getting sick and tired of people pretending the current bunch of idiots is even remotely as good as the alternative, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming and cannot be denied. Bring back democracy, even if it means it would be a Thaksin proxy. Remember, the key issue is respect of the will of the people, even if they elect an idiot, such as the minority of Americans did a while back.

 

Maybe some democracy should fix their system, so that a guy voted in by a minority, cannot possibly become president. And before someone screams that it makes sense, and that it is to protect "smaller states" , they don't need protecting, and it's vastly undemocratic. 

[zzaa09]

38 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Let me see. The other political systems are monarchy, communism and dictatorship. No need for deep exploration. Easy choice. Better survival chance in democracy. 

Yet, there's no such beast.

All contemporary systems fall under the guise of oligarchy/plutocracy. 

 

Nor is there anything special about your supposed "civilised" West. 

Even more so panders to corrupted unethical practices - where repression is a way of life. 

[sjaak327]

14 minutes ago, JAG said:

Is it Groundhog Day?

Or broken record. At least the "shins" actually obtained a mandate, that in itself makes them saints compared to what Thailand is stuck with now.

[sjaak327]

28 minutes ago, bangrak said:

'Lacessit': wow, you did it: associate 'democracy' and the Shins in one sentence... When you've not been brainwashed, you must know that when and if the Shins would have been working towards 'democracy' (instead of abusing the word for their power...and profit only), there might not have been any 'coup' in 2006 or 2014, or for sure it wouldn't have had the massive popular support both had! Disliking military dictatorship is not per se implying one feels any sympathy for the Shin vampires!

Your claim that those coups had massive support is something you pull out of thin air. Did you forget that the first post coup election let to a victory at the ballot box of Samak, put there by Thaksin ? Are you forgetting that both coups were staged with general elections pending. The coups never had massive approval, and that's the very reason they were staged on the eve of a general election. 

 

The only actual evidence of massive support is the support Thaksin enjoyed, four election victories in as many general elections, three with an absolute landslide victory. 

 

And it seems the junta is doing everything to prevent a fifth victory, which will not work unless they cheat !

Edited January 5, 2019 by sjaak327

[marqus12]

33 minutes ago, bangrak said:

'Lacessit': wow, you did it: associate 'democracy' and the Shins in one sentence... When you've not been brainwashed, you must know that when and if the Shins would have been working towards 'democracy' (instead of abusing the word for their power...and profit only), there might not have been any 'coup' in 2006 or 2014, or for sure it wouldn't have had the massive popular support both had! Disliking military dictatorship is not per se implying one feels any sympathy for the Shin vampires!

as if there were no coups before the shins... excuses for masses

[Eric Loh]

8 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, there's no such beast.

All contemporary systems fall under the guise of oligarchy/plutocracy. 

 

Nor is there anything special about your supposed "civilised" West. 

Even more so panders to corrupted unethical practices - where repression is a way of life. 

No matter how imperfect democracy is in the civilized west, they turn to the people to make the decision. Lesson for Thailand. Not taking a hard stance and pandering to regular military intervention is repressing one’s way of life, human rights and freedom. 

[marqus12]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

No matter how imperfect democracy is in the civilized west, they turn to the people to make the decision. Lesson for Thailand. Not taking a hard stance and pandering to regular military intervention is repressing one’s way of life, human rights and freedom. 

even the most corrupt but democratically elected government is more

trustworthy than any other

[chama]

12 hours ago, Lacessit said:

These are only symbols. For all their faults, democracy was extinguished when the Shinawatras were booted out.

You mean when the military takes over an elected government democracy dies? I have to agree and I am left wondering what will happen when the next election is stolen? The eventual "winners" are bold enough that they probably won't work very hard at covering up the theft since the entire stage show is more for the international community. Will the Thais react by shrugging their shoulders or will they grow some balls? 

[mauGR1]

23 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, there's no such beast.

All contemporary systems fall under the guise of oligarchy/plutocracy. 

 

Nor is there anything special about your supposed "civilised" West. 

Even more so panders to corrupted unethical practices - where repression is a way of life. 

I fully agree, the most developed democracies have thrived thanks to the exploitation of the 3rd world countries.. Now they are suffering because there's not much left to exploit.

[KhunProletariat]

8 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

We almost had a chance at real democracy  with citizens direct and participatory involvement. We even have citizens initiatives in the form of public opinion of major projects. Not perfect but still a template in which all citizens have the possibility and the right to participate in the decisions that affect their lives and communities. BUT the elites and military fear losing power, dominance and the treasure cove. So they plotted and plotted numerous times to sabotage real democracy and entrenching their superiority and governance more than elected governments. They are the problem and obstacle to real democracy. 

 

Came close but they failed to take the cigar.

 

And I am in complete agreement with you about the elites here lobbying for power. I have seen it with my own eyes. What goes on behind the scenes in LOS is nothing short of terrifying.

 

KP.

Edited January 5, 2019 by KhunProletariat

[NanLaew]

13 hours ago, Eligius said:

And the bulk of the Thais - nearly 70 million of them - seem just to say: 'Mai ben rai. What soap is on TV tonight? Oh, let's take a selfie of me and my meal. But oh look - there is a General coming along, a Government Grown-Up - let's all get down on our knees and wai  and show that we are good, obedient Thais!'

The bulk of Thais? You know them all?

 

With the strictures of the computer crime act, posting 'food porn' is just about the only safe personal expression available, no?

 

As for all this alleged, universally blind kow-towing...

 

YNTGOM.

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, zzaa09 said:

Yet, there's no such beast.

All contemporary systems fall under the guise of oligarchy/plutocracy. 

 

Nor is there anything special about your supposed "civilised" West. 

Even more so panders to corrupted unethical practices - where repression is a way of life. 

It's great being able to be negative about everything, but eventually, it wears thin.  Do you have anything constructive to offer?

 

In your opinion, are democratically elected demagogues like Hitler or Trump better or worse than the Junta?

In what way?

Put your cock on the block and express a positive opinion.

 

SC

[Odysseus123]

5 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

It's great being able to be negative about everything, but eventually, it wears thin.  Do you have anything constructive to offer?

 

In your opinion, are democratically elected demagogues like Hitler or Trump better or worse than the Junta?

In what way?

Put your cock on the block and express a positive opinion.

 

SC

Just one thing because I see it repeated over and over and it is not historically correct,,

 

Adolf Hitler was not a 'democratically elected demagogue' as he was never democratically elected.He was appointed into his position by  the president Paul von Hindenburg with the support of a sizeable faction within the German army.

 

Referring to your other point-none of the Thai apologists are able to offer anything other than.."but..but..Thaksin" and "democracy is bad all over" as meager intellectual fodder in these kinds of debate.It is a constant repetition of the 'big lie'

 

The vagueness is all they have got to play with.

[AtoZ]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

The bulk of Thais? You know them all?

 

With the strictures of the computer crime act, posting 'food porn' is just about the only safe personal expression available, no?

 

As for all this alleged, universally blind kow-towing...

 

YNTGOM.

People were never freed from tyranny by keeping safe.

 

Pretty much every European nation had to do something about it.

[Fex Bluse]

I get that democracy is, in theory, a reasonable form of governing. But, it is not without fundamental flaws. We need only to look to America for an example of how broken it can be. 

 

I actually think that it only really works if the voting populace is 1) educated on key issues impacting the nation and b) selfless. Neither of these things is true in almost every country on earth. 

 

In my view, Thailand needs a Singapore model. A psuedo democracy but with competent, reasonably selfless leaders. The young guy - "Thanathorn", is it? - seems, on the surface to be the type. But, the Thais are so good at saying all the right things... You never know who's being genuine. 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse

[tomta]

14 hours ago, natway09 said:

Believing in democracy is like believing in the tooth fairy

Democracy is not a belief, it's a practice, an aspiration, a set of values.

[Fex Bluse]

11 hours ago, sjaak327 said:

Democracy is alive and well the world over. And there is ample evidence to suggest it beats the hell out of any other alternative. Yes even in Thailand. Getting sick and tired of people pretending the current bunch of idiots is even remotely as good as the alternative, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming and cannot be denied. Bring back democracy, even if it means it would be a Thaksin proxy. Remember, the key issue is respect of the will of the people, even if they elect an idiot, such as the minority of Americans did a while back.

 

Maybe some democracy should fix their system, so that a guy voted in by a minority, cannot possibly become president. And before someone screams that it makes sense, and that it is to protect "smaller states" , they don't need protecting, and it's vastly undemocratic. 

Good morning.

 

Please pardon me jumping in. I know some of my friends will disagree, but I genuinely question whether Democracy is the best course for Thailand at this stage in their development.

 

There are other successful forms of governing, particularly in Asia. Singapore and China are interesting examples. I would not classify either as Democracies.

 

Anyway, if we can agree that Democracy only works well when voters are educated -- especially on key issues -- we have to then assess the current and expected future state of education in Thailand. An old, but good read on the link between education and civic participation is here: https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/glaeser/files/democracy_final_jeg_1.pdf

 

I would suggest that Thais will continue to be very, very poorly educated as having a population of psuedo-serfs, who are encouraged -- actually, required -- to be happy with whatever life gives them, is fundamental to Thai culture. Poor education is central to keeping Thais -- Thai. And, I think the power brokers in the country are more concerned with maintaining the culture than making the country, as a whole and not just for those of high birth, a prosperous country.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Fex Bluse