Britons would now vote to stay in EU, want second referendum: poll

[Basil B]

On 1/7/2019 at 12:15 AM, MARK74 said:

"The poll of more than 25,000 voters was commissioned by the People's Vote campaign, which is spearheading an increasingly vocal push for a second referendum on Brexit."

I may be wrong but most polls commissioned by a non impartial source seem to get the result they require to meet their agenda.

YouGov a highly respected global opinion research company which brexiteers a only too happy to quote when it suits them.

 

should have read the article in full...

On 1/6/2019 at 11:27 PM, webfact said:

That is broadly in line with other polls in recent months which show a deeply divided electorate, in which opinion has swung towards remaining in the EU. The 2016 referendum voted 52 to 48 percent in favour of leaving.

 

Brexiteers are now turning to abusive and threatening behavior to prevent those who do not agree with them expressing an opinion...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-46789073/brexit-protesters-chant-scum-at-conservative-mp-anna-soubry

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Basil B

[yogi100]

20 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Every leaver talks about how the second vote would be for leave, they’d romp home, no bother at all. But none are willing to put that to the test? Wonder why?

It's not the leavers decision to make nor is it in their interest to attempt to make it so. Neither do they want one.

 

You remainites must clamour for another RFRD if you're actually sincere in your belief and you should finance it as well. The 2016 RFRD cost the British taxpeayer 129 million quid!

 

You want it you pay for it yourselves, the rest of us will just vote in it. The same way as we did before and so will our families and friends.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, oilinki said:

Sounds like UK's problem joining EFTA is similar to Russian or Turkish problems joining EU. They all are far too large to join in without disturbing power balance of these clubs.

 

UK would be a temporary monster within EFTA which would come and then go after few years of ruling the club. It's understandable that the existing EFTA countries don't want a temporary storm on their playground. 

yes, think you could sum it up as that, more or less,

and symptomatic of the problem is that UK doesn't even understand that they don't fit,

'caused by their severe attack of superiority complex.

 

[melvinmelvin]

Yesterday's Bangkok Post has an interesting article re Brexit,

with a really big photo of May (from the Marr jippo last Sunday).

 

My gawd she looks old, same same as me mama when she was 82/83,

but of course, the PM has endured a burdensome 2 years.

 

 

[yogi100]

19 hours ago, baansgr said:

Its this kind of thinking that brought about the result. Have you ever had to wait weeks for Drs appointment, drive your kids 10 miles to school rather than walk them to the one a few hundred yards away, have toothache for weeks as no dental vacancy, move away from your area due to a housing shortage....these are the daily problems millions of people are suffering due to mass immigration from the EU. nobody listened then and still they dont listen. dont blame the government for lack of investment, when the countrys population increases by 10% in a few years its impossible to cope with

It has been virtually impossible for indigenous working class people to obtain housing in London for decades now long before we opened the gates to the EU.

 

A walk round any public housing estate will tell you that. The old 'Spot the white man' remark is now more disturbing than we ever imagined it could be.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

It has been virtually impossible for indigenous working class people to obtain housing in London for decades now long before we opened the gates to the EU.

 

A walk round any public housing estate will tell you that. The old 'Spot the white man' remark is now more disturbing than we ever imagined it could be.

So I suppose it's not the Polish workers who are occupying London as they tend to be white folks.

[melvinmelvin]

Just now, melvinmelvin said:

Yesterday's Bangkok Post has an interesting article re Brexit,

with a really big photo of May (from the Marr jippo last Sunday).

 

My gawd she looks old, same same as me mama when she was 82/83,

but of course, the PM has endured a burdensome 2 years.

 

 

in same same article it is said;

 

"Ms May outlined a formal plan action on Sunday that included the possibility

 of giving parliament a bigger say in a new round of trade talks with Brussels,

 due to start immediately after March 29."

 

Thy shall read alot before the eyes fall out.

 

Who the boomboom is running the foggy islands, the inept May or the

so called sovereign UK parliament?

 

I wouldn't offer many farthings for the UK parliament, pretty inept,

Brexit is THE IMPORTANT issue for UK, parliament just leaves the whole

issue to an inexperienced PM and inexperienced negotiators without any

checks or balances.

Shame on parliament, the mess is not May's fault - she can't do better - it is the fault of

the so called sovereign parliament.

 

 

[yogi100]

19 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Brexiteers always end up sounding like old leaflets from the League of Empire Loyalists.

 

You've never met a member of the League of Empire Loyalists let alone read one of their leaflets.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Because I am better informed than you.

 

The referendum was advisory and didn't not bind parliament. There were wrongdoings to confuse the semi literate Demographic C and D classes. 

 

The issue is much too serious to be decided by low level munchkins. But thanks for your opinion 

This attitude is precisely why I (jokingly) suggested that only those with an IQ higher than 130 should be allowed to vote....

 

I noticed that you didn't agree with this suggestion ????.

[baansgr]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

Mainly non EU migrants So off topic

https://remittanceprices.worldbank.org/sites/default/files/migrants_remittances_uk.pdf

 

Maybe this will clear up that, of course India and Pakistan receive a large proportion, as they have been settled for generations and many are in retirement...change to country of birth and the figures speak for themselves

[SheungWan]

16 minutes ago, yogi100 said:

 

You've never met a member of the League of Empire Loyalists let alone read one of their leaflets.

You mean the League of Empire Loyalists led by G K Chesterton, who split off from the British Union of Fascists (BUF).

Edited January 9, 2019 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

20 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

in same same article it is said;

"Ms May outlined a formal plan action on Sunday that included the possibility

 of giving parliament a bigger say in a new round of trade talks with Brussels,

 due to start immediately after March 29."

Thy shall read alot before the eyes fall out.

Who the boomboom is running the foggy islands, the inept May or the

so called sovereign UK parliament?

I wouldn't offer many farthings for the UK parliament, pretty inept,

Brexit is THE IMPORTANT issue for UK, parliament just leaves the whole

issue to an inexperienced PM and inexperienced negotiators without any

checks or balances.

Shame on parliament, the mess is not May's fault - she can't do better - it is the fault of

the so called sovereign parliament.

So-called analysis.

[yogi100]

9 hours ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

The UK existed before the great EU, I have confidence that its future will be okay, after the first hard bumps. Belgium just wants the money, does not care a dam for the UK people. my opinion anyway.

 

Geezer

 

Quite Right.

 

Many Belgians quite understandably resented our presence in the their country in WW2 especially after we'd helped flatten it 20 odd years earlier.

 

40,000 of 'em fought for the Germans in the Waffen SS. We're not always as popular in parts of Europe as we've been led to believe we were. Vichy France was pro German and De Gaulle hated our guts.

 

It's the victors who get to write the history books after any war and those who read them rarely hear any other version.

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Why should they? The vote already took place in 2016 and Leave Won.

 

Man City beat Rotherham 7-0 in the FA Cup last week. Romped home. City fans would be very confident that they'd win again if they played them again next week. It doesn't mean their theory should be put to the test as the game has already been played. The result is in. Rotheram are out and unlike Remainers, their supporters accept it.

 

Before you start talking about opinions changing over time, there is truth in that but you have to realize that the first vote needs to be respected and implemented before a second referendum can take place. You don't re-run a general election before the winning party has had their term in office. We must leave the EU as per the legislation and then in a few years if there is significant support for a referendum to re-enter then you can have your second vote. You can't demand to vote again before the results have been implemented just because you lost. That's not how Democracy works.

 

Remainers need to accept they lost and get behind the country, not try and sabotage the process.

Quite simple really. The hard Brexit fanatics want a no deal Brexit, which they claim is the will of the people? But how can that possibly be true if no Leave campaigner campaigned for a WTO off the cliff Brexit? If May’s deal is rejected for not being Brexit enough then the “people’s will” for a hard Brexit must be tested. 

 

Leavers don’t want a second vote for the obvious reason ... they would lose. And that looks like the direction we are going, whether you like it or not.

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

The pound slumped because people panicked. However, now that is HAS fallen, a weak currency has many benefits.

 

• UK exporters are more competitive.
• Increasing demand for local products since foreign products increase in price.
• Foreign investors find British assets/housing cheaper.
• UK firms that earn profits abroad benefit.
• current account deficit should improve as the value of exports rises relative to the value of imports.

I'm not saying it's all positive but people who quote a weak pound as being only bad news should think again. Countries often deliberately devalue their currency, China for example.

 

The pound is undervalued at the moment and will increase in value a few months after we leave when people realize the sky didn't fall, there was no VD outbreak, planes still took to the air and the short terms issues around the ports have been sorted out.

 

No country prospers in the long term by constantly devaluing it's own currency. The UK is worse off than it would have been following the vote in 2016, and we have not even left the EU yet. A hard Brexit would be much worse for the UK ... and for many Brexit supporters, although the penny hasn’t quite dropped yet. 

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, Joinaman said:

Well, I've spent a nice time reading all these posts and still can't find anyone showing me exactly why it's so bad to leave
Perhaps we have a very clever remainder who can tell us
Anyone care to give the true facts,
How much it will cost, and exactly why
How much we will save from not paying into eu, and why
How long it will take to sort out, and why
And mostly, what laws, increased payments, etc will the eu be imposing in the next 10 years if we stay in
All I hear is people arguing who's got the biggest dick and who's the poorest loser, so come on , as a leaver I don't know, but am willing to risk it on the facts I know now
But I'm fascinated to know the full facts from some of our remainers
Don't bother with with what you think, or hope, or should be, enlighten all us leavers and maybe, just maybe we could change our minds, after knowing all the true facts that you will give us



Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

The debate is a judgement call on the future consequences of Brexit ... what you are asking for can’t be delivered, as well you know. If you jump off the seventh floor of a Pattaya condo my judgement is that you will be severely injured and possibly die. That judgement is based on the experience of others who have done something similar. But it’s not a fact ... you might land on a ladyboy and get lucky? 

 

People with specialist knowledge and expertise on trade and economics take a dim view of a hard Brexit, few respected analysts believe that it will be good for the UK ... for reasons already discussed on here to exhaustion. People like me think it makes sense in this world to be part of a bigger group, stronger together in the face of Trump, Putin, Xi and the rest. I like the freedom to live and work in Europe without any incumberences, and as a consequence feel a bit closer to other European nationals. We’re all in this together. That’s not an economic argument, but it is how many people feel. I don’t see Italians, Germans and Poles as foreigners who I should be afraid of or have any resentment towards. I enjoy being in that group and don’t want to be wrenched from it by bigots and liars.

Edited January 9, 2019 by AlexRich

[CG1 Blue]

4 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The debate is a judgement call on the future consequences of Brexit ... what you are asking for can’t be delivered, as well you know. If you jump off the seventh floor of a Pattaya condo my judgement is that you will be severely injured and possibly die. That judgement is based on the experience of others who have done so. But it’s not a fact ... you might land on a ladyboy and get lucky? 

 

People with specialist list knowledge and expertise on trade and economics take a dim view of a hard Brexit, few respected analysts believe that it will be good for the UK ... for reasons already discussed on here. People like me think it makes sense this world to be part of a bigger group, stronger together in the face of Trump, Putin, Xi and the rest. I like the freedom to live and work in Europe without any incumberences, and as a consequence feel a bit closer to other European nationals. We’re all in this together. That’s not an economic argument, but it is how many people feel. I don’t see Italians, Germans and Poles as foreigners who I should be afraid of or have any resentment towards. I enjoy being in that group and don’t want to be wrenched from it by bigots and liars.

"That judgement is based on the experience of others who have done so."

 

Tell me when a major economic power has previously left a political union such as the EU. As far as I'm aware there is no precedence, and therefore nobody has the experience you refer to. 

 

 

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, Antonymous said:

 

You appear to be an elitist cheerleader who has no idea what democracy means.

Democracy is a vote after a fair debate, with no interference by foreign governments. If Aaron Banks was funded by Russian intelligence and Cambridge Analytica worked with Russian intelligence assets then our vote was tainted by propaganda and lies. Not to mention the more obvious lies that we got from Johnson and Co.

 

If I thought the vote was a fair democratic vote I’d accept it. The reason that remain opposition has been so strong is that few of us believe that it was. It is our duty as patriots to oppose it.

 

In Russia they have a vote and Putin wins ... but he does so by cheating the electorate, he has eliminated the opposition. Your equivalent will be on the Russian forums stating the Putin won fair and square after a democratic vote. 

[CG1 Blue]

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

Sounds like UK's problem joining EFTA is similar to Russian or Turkish problems joining EU. They all are far too large to join in without disturbing power balance of these clubs.

 

UK would be a temporary monster within EFTA which would come and then go after few years of ruling the club. It's understandable that the existing EFTA countries don't want a temporary storm on their playground. 

It's very interesting to hear this side of the story, and now I totally understand how those countries might feel. However, I suspect those countries might have their arms twisted by Juncker and his cronies if this is the direction the EU/UK chooses. Would the EFTA gang dare to oppose the mighty EU? 

 

 

[yogi100]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

You mean the League of Empire Loyalists led by G K Chesterton, who split off from the British Union of Fascists (BUF).

I know what I mean. I'm not sure that you do.

 

The LEL was led by A K Chesterton.

 

G K Chesterton would have had a bit of a problem leading the LEL which was founded in 1954.

GK had died in 1936. Eighteen years earlier!

[AlexRich]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"That judgement is based on the experience of others who have done so."

 

Tell me when a major economic power has previously left a political union such as the EU. As far as I'm aware there is no precedence, and therefore nobody has the experience you refer to. 

 

 

 

Trade economists will tell you that it is no coincidence that any given country does the bulk of it’s trade with neighbours, not with other countries thousands of miles away. So if you walk away from a trade deal with 27 neighbours and also throw away another 60 trade deals within that club with other countries (like Canada and Japan) and give up bilateral agreements with the USA in order to take up WTO terms and start from scratch .... it will not lead to a positive economic outcome.

 

Do you have to be a specialist in trade to get that, or is it just obvious?

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

3 hours ago, oilinki said:

Sounds like UK's problem joining EFTA is similar to Russian or Turkish problems joining EU. They all are far too large to join in without disturbing power balance of these clubs.

 

UK would be a temporary monster within EFTA which would come and then go after few years of ruling the club. It's understandable that the existing EFTA countries don't want a temporary storm on their playground. 

yes, think you could sum it up as that, more or less,

and symptomatic of the problem is that UK doesn't even understand that they don't fit,

'caused by their severe attack of superiority complex.

Hang on, you guys are calling the UK powerful, a monster, too big...and then you say we have a superiority complex? You can't have it both ways.  

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Hang on, you guys are calling the UK powerful, a monster, too big...and then you say we have a superiority complex? You can't have it both ways.  

Total population of current EFTA countries is 14 million.

 

[Nigel Garvie]

28 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Quite simple really. The hard Brexit fanatics want a no deal Brexit, which they claim is the will of the people? But how can that possibly be true if no Leave campaigner campaigned for a WTO off the cliff Brexit? If May’s deal is rejected for not being Brexit enough then the “people’s will” for a hard Brexit must be tested. 

 

 

It is a pleasure to see it put simply and directly like this. The whole point is that the WTO off the cliff hard Brexit was not what the leave charlatans (Farage et al) actually campaigned for. Many leave voters would have had the intelligence to see that this was an awful option, and would not have supported it. Some of  the leave voters have now had the courage to admit that they were wrong, this is not easy to do, and they should be credited. 

This is what parliament is for (Repeal of the corn laws etc), when it becomes clear that we are about to do something bloody stupid, our sovereign parliament has the power to amend it, or stop it altogether. We gave the government the power to negotiate a deal that would actually work for the benefit of the UK as a whole, it has proved to be impossible to do that, thus the impasse.

[CG1 Blue]

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Trade economists will tell you that it is no coincidence that any given country does the bulk of it’s trade with neighbours, not with other countries thousands of miles away. So if you walk away from a trade deal with 27 neighbours and also throw away another 60 trade deals within that club with other countries (like Canada and Japan) and give up bilateral agreements with the USA in order to take up WTO terms and start from scratch .... it will not lead to a positive economic outcome.

 

Do you have to be a specialist in trade to get that, or is it just obvious?

"any given country does the bulk of it’s trade with neighbours"

Not quite true.  For example, in the top 10 countries that the US trades with the most, only 2 (Canada and Mexico) are in the Americas. The rest are in Asia and Europe. 

The UK's trade with the EU vs the RoW has fallen over the past 10 years or so, and is now something like 43% (from 55%).

 

You're also not accounting for the fact that EU countries will still trade with the UK.  A lot of these 'experts' seem to think we'll just suddenly stop trading with Europe. In fact with Sterling revalued the UK is even more competitive now. 

 

Lastly, you don't know what measures the UK government, BoE etc will take in the years following Brexit to make our economy stronger, and you don't know how the EU will perform without the UK. Too many unknowns! 

 

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

It is a pleasure to see it put simply and directly like this. The whole point is that the WTO off the cliff hard Brexit was not what the leave charlatans (Farage et al) actually campaigned for. Many leave voters would have had the intelligence to see that this was an awful option, and would not have supported it. Some of  the leave voters have now had the courage to admit that they were wrong, this is not easy to do, and they should be credited. 

This is what parliament is for (Repeal of the corn laws etc), when it becomes clear that we are about to do something bloody stupid, our sovereign parliament has the power to amend it, or stop it altogether. We gave the government the power to negotiate a deal that would actually work for the benefit of the UK as a whole, it has proved to be impossible to do that, thus the impasse.

 

This is, in my view, the key point. No one campaigned to leave on WTO terms with no transition, not Farage, not Johnson or Gove, not Daniel Hannan or Rees Mogg. If we go back to statements made during the campaign we were promised that arrangements would be put in place, there not only would be a deal but it would be a better deal than we have currently. 

 

So how can anyone claim that “hard Brexit” was the will of leave voters? 

 

Those who believe this is what everyone voted for should not be scared to put that to the test?

 

The ERG are going for a hard Brexit. They confidently predicted 48 letters and failed to deliver, they confidently predicted the demise of May and failed to deliver, and now they are confidently predicting a hard Brexit. I will die of laughter if what they end up with is a second vote and then no Brexit. That would be a fitting end to this fiasco.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

20 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Hang on, you guys are calling the UK powerful, a monster, too big...and then you say we have a superiority complex? You can't have it both ways.  

don't understand, its all the same thing

 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

"any given country does the bulk of it’s trade with neighbours"

Not quite true.  For example, in the top 10 countries that the US trades with the most, only 2 (Canada and Mexico) are in the Americas. The rest are in Asia and Europe. 

The UK's trade with the EU vs the RoW has fallen over the past 10 years or so, and is now something like 43% (from 55%).

 

You're also not accounting for the fact that EU countries will still trade with the UK.  A lot of these 'experts' seem to think we'll just suddenly stop trading with Europe. In fact with Sterling revalued the UK is even more competitive now. 

 

Lastly, you don't know what measures the UK government, BoE etc will take in the years following Brexit to make our economy stronger, and you don't know how the EU will perform without the UK. Too many unknowns! 

 

 

The problem is that the UK already trades with every other country to some extent ... China, India, etc. Being in the EU did not stop them from doing so? Germany do a great deal of trade with China, being in the EU does not impede them. So what great change is going to happen after Brexit? If we are on WTO terms and implement John Redmond’s “cunning plan” to reduce tariffs to zero, what trade deal can we negotiate? We have nothing left to bargain with. 

 

The majority of analysts who look at this believe that the UK will be poorer and grow below it’s future potential ... but you know better?

[keemapoot]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The problem is that the UK already trades with every other country to some extent ... China, India, etc. Being in the EU did not stop them from doing so? Germany do a great deal of trade with China, being in the EU does not impede them. So what great change is going to happen after Brexit? If we are on WTO terms and implement John Redmond’s “cunning plan” to reduce tariffs to zero, what trade deal can we negotiate? We have nothing left to bargain with. 

 

The majority of analysts who look at this believe that the UK will be poorer and grow below it’s future potential ... but you know better?

What is hard for people to sometimes understand is just how complex and dependent supply chains are on existing FTAs, trade agreements, and particularly the EU. Take Airbus, for example, look the following supply chain, and think of how component cost changes that occur in Britain as a result of Brexit could make Airbus less competitive on the world markets, and could cause Airbus to avoid British suppliers entirely bypassing Filton and Broughton and having big negative impact on jobs and the economy of the UK.

 

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, yogi100 said:

"protected by minimum wage legislation."

 

Be real, In your fantasy land they may be but not in the real world.

 

In Romania for example workers get one GBP an hour if they're lucky, that's 8 quid a day. They get can triple or quadruple that easily in the UK.

 

They come to the UK, get housed in an old caravan if they work on the farms or live a warm bedding four or more to a room existence  that costs them about a fiver a day. They jump at the chance to get a daily wage of 30 - 40 quid a day which is a sight less than the minimum wage but to them it's like winning the lottery.

 

Landlords, employers and contractors love it because along with the gang masters they're all quids in. The workers are happy because they pay no stoppages, can claim various benefits including child benefit that no one can check up on, pay negligible rent, spend very little, pay no council tax and send cash home where they can build and buy houses for a few hundred quid.

 

And no officials ever checks up on these activities because they receive zero cooperation from everyone involved. The procedure has always gone on be it with our own people, the Irish and now the Eastern Europeans. It used to be known as 'working the lump' and working 'cash in hand' or 'cash in spanner'. 

 

That's how it works in the real world and no one cares because those who should act on it like politicians and council officials are often involved, are too stupid, look the other way or have their hands tied.

There has always been an element of black economy, but in the UK it is tiny, a very small percentage of GDP. It exists everywhere, Donald Trump uses it on his building sites. But the vast majority of Eastern European’s working in the UK are doing so from within the system, paying taxes and spending money here ... doing jobs that Britons don’t want to do.