Brexit bedlam - May's EU divorce deal crushed by 230 votes in parliament

[sanemax]

14 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

If I remember correctly, I wrote that people were promised pink unicorns, and then Cameron sent leaflets telling everyone “pink unicorns don’t exist, but I will make sure you’ll get one should you vote for it”. It should be clear that the pink unicorn is referring to the false promises made in terms of a have-the-cake-and-eat-it easiest-deal-of-history type of Brexit. 

That is not true , voters were never promised pink unicorns , you just made that up 

[welovesundaysatspace]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

That is not true , voters were never promised pink unicorns , you just made that up 

I’m sorry if you don’t know the difference between speaking literally and figuratively. Even more so since I already explained what I was referring to. 

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I’m sorry if you don’t know the difference between speaking literally and figuratively. Even more so since I already explained what I was referring to. 

Why dont you just speak literally then , rather than waffling on about pink unicorns 

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Why dont you just speak literally then , rather than waffling on about pink unicorns 

Because it’s totally up to me, and presumably 99% of people are smart enough to get it. Again, sorry if you belong to the 1%, but I won’t change the way I write for the illiterate. 

[rixalex]

49 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

If I remember correctly, I wrote that people were promised pink unicorns, and then Cameron sent leaflets telling everyone “pink unicorns don’t exist, but I will make sure you’ll get one should you vote for it”. It should be clear that the pink unicorn is referring to the false promises made in terms of a have-the-cake-and-eat-it easiest-deal-of-history type of Brexit. 

 

I can't see anywhere on the leaflet where he mentioned anything "false promises made in terms of a have-the-cake-and-eat-it easiest-deal-of-history type of Brexit". Over to you.

[SuperTed]

Generally speaking, changing bureaucracies is better done from within the superstructure than by assaulting the superstructure or trying to build a second one. Because of the way Britain went about the decision - a ballot initiative- you lost the opportunity to threaten the EU into implementing change. This is what the US is doing, in small part, at the UN, and should be doing more of.

Britain is stuffed - leaving the EU is bad for Britain, but the uncertainty around leaving is worse. Uncertainty is always bad for business, as it drastically decreases the value of deployed capital and capital looking to invest.

[aright]

4 minutes ago, SuperTed said:

Generally speaking, changing bureaucracies is better done from within the superstructure than by assaulting the superstructure or trying to build a second one. Because of the way Britain went about the decision - a ballot initiative- you lost the opportunity to threaten the EU into implementing change. This is what the US is doing, in small part, at the UN, and should be doing more of.

Britain is stuffed - leaving the EU is bad for Britain, but the uncertainty around leaving is worse. Uncertainty is always bad for business, as it drastically decreases the value of deployed capital and capital looking to invest.

You would have a good point if all member states in the community were equal. Unfortunately they are not, the EU is dominated by Germany and to a lesser extent France. The UK has had 40 odd years to try and change the EU with no success.

I might consider changing my mind if you can tell me what political party I can vote for in the UK to effect this change. Italy , France, Germany etc are increasingly voting for far right wing parties as a result of their dissatisfaction, and the Commission still can't see the writing on the wall. Without Brexit the UK in voting terms may have gone the same way but we are the only country in the EU, with the possible exception of Ireland who don't have a significant extreme right wing party.

Remainers never explain the benefits of being in the EU beyond saying how much stronger we will be together. They don't wax lyrical about the marvelous freedom of expression shown by the Gilets Jaunes in France, the economic miracles enjoyed by Italian banks, the magnificent employment statistics evident for the young in Spain, the riches enjoyed by the Greeks, the strong invincible European army they are going to create, the wonderful financial deficit the French people enjoy. All this could be ours if only we stayed in the EU. 

 The Train standing at Platform EU 27, is leaving for EU 1 very soon. You are instructed to climb on the Train. It will not stop at any other Stations, and will not return.

 

[tebee]

 

[SuperTed]

You would have a good point if all member states in the community were equal. Unfortunately they are not, the EU is dominated by Germany and to a lesser extent France. The UK has had 40 odd years to try and change the EU with no success.
I might consider changing my mind if you can tell me what political party I can vote for in the UK to effect this change. Italy , France, Germany etc are increasingly voting for far right wing parties as a result of their dissatisfaction, and the Commission still can't see the writing on the wall. Without Brexit the UK in voting terms may have gone the same way but we are the only country in the EU, with the possible exception of Ireland who don't have a significant extreme right wing party.
Remainers never explain the benefits of being in the EU beyond saying how much stronger we will be together. They don't wax lyrical about the marvelous freedom of expression shown by the Gilets Jaunes in France, the economic miracles enjoyed by Italian banks, the magnificent employment statistics evident for the young in Spain, the riches enjoyed by the Greeks, the strong invincible European army they are going to create, the wonderful financial deficit the French people enjoy. All this could be ours if only we stayed in the EU. 
 The Train standing at Platform EU 27, is leaving for EU 1 very soon. You are instructed to climb on the Train. It will not stop at any other Stations, and will not return.
 

Don't disagree with your views, but again, lack of political unity really prevented UK from using its full clout to affect change. It is unfortunate DE knew the problems and didn't fix them. Too busy accepting immigrants to fix the EU...

There was never a moment where the UK, having pressed France into cooperating, told Brussels "look we're going to defund you next year if you don't change X, Y, Z"

There was just not the political will to take action. And Britain, with a France, Italy, Spain or Holland onside, is big enough to have forced change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, maybe that moment happened but didn't make the papers

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Because it’s totally up to me, and presumably 99% of people are smart enough to get it. Again, sorry if you belong to the 1%, but I won’t change the way I write for the illiterate. 

What did you mean by "pink unicorns" then ?

What were the promises made that were never kept ?

[CG1 Blue]

12 hours ago, nontabury said:

 

  If the Irish government, is ordered to erect an hard boarder, by their masters in Brussels. Then so it will be.

The problem then arises,how will the republics export to their major customer be effected.

If the EU try to tell the Irish government to put up a border, that would be the end of Ireland's relationship with the EU. It'll never happen. 

[CG1 Blue]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

Wirth a no deal Brexit the EU will insist that ROI create one.

The EU cannot (and will not) force Ireland to put up a border. Have you seen the passion in Ireland over this matter? They'd stick two fingers up at the EU.

Ireland would leave the EU before they would put up a border. 

[nauseus]

44 minutes ago, SuperTed said:

Don't disagree with your views, but again, lack of political unity really prevented UK from using its full clout to affect change. It is unfortunate DE knew the problems and didn't fix them. Too busy accepting immigrants to fix the EU...

There was never a moment where the UK, having pressed France into cooperating, told Brussels "look we're going to defund you next year if you don't change X, Y, Z"

There was just not the political will to take action. And Britain, with a France, Italy, Spain or Holland onside, is big enough to have forced change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, maybe that moment happened but didn't make the papers

Lack of political unity did not prevent UK from affecting change; the Germans, French and their majority of funded associate countries did.

 

Recent immigration will not "fix" the EU. Many of them take years to become capable of productivity and by then they have cost a small fortune and are much closer to retirement. Why are they needed when there are so many youngsters in southern Europe without work?

If France had truly "cooperated" then that would have meant the end of the EU years ago. But that was never going to happen, was it? The French love their CAP too much.

 

[Spidey]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU cannot (and will not) force Ireland to put up a border. Have you seen the passion in Ireland over this matter? They'd stick two fingers up at the EU.

Ireland would leave the EU before they would put up a border. 

If there were to be a no deal Brexit, I really can't see an alternative.

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

I realise that you are far better informed than me but I should tell you that I learnt a great deal over the past 3 years.

 

It is clear now that the disadvantages of leaving are massive and the benefits, if any, are diminishingly small.

 

I think it would be wise to check with the electorate that whatever parliament decides is acceptable.

 

You voted to leave the EU. I would give you that but minimize the damage by at least staying in the SM and CU. You want a specific type of Brexit? Vote for it.

We did it called leave the EU, leave the single market and leave the custom union

People that voted remain voted to keep the status quo, people that voted leave voted for the opposite of the status quo the eu referendum options were a  binary choice between leave or remain

Here Cameron stating 28 times a vote for leave means leaving the single market

 

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If the EU try to tell the Irish government to put up a border, that would be the end of Ireland's relationship with the EU. It'll never happen. 

dunno

wouldn't wager many farthings on that

 

[CG1 Blue]

25 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

33 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

If the EU try to tell the Irish government to put up a border, that would be the end of Ireland's relationship with the EU. It'll never happen. 

dunno

wouldn't wager many farthings on that

Then my friend, I'm afraid you don't know the Irish! 

[CG1 Blue]

28 minutes ago, Spidey said:

30 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU cannot (and will not) force Ireland to put up a border. Have you seen the passion in Ireland over this matter? They'd stick two fingers up at the EU.

Ireland would leave the EU before they would put up a border. 

If there were to be a no deal Brexit, I really can't see an alternative.

You don't need to see an alternative. Just understand that a hard border will not be put up under any circumstances. The Irish will never allow it. How the EU cope with that is not our problem. 

[Spidey]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

You don't need to see an alternative. Just understand that a hard border will not be put up under any circumstances. The Irish will never allow it. How the EU cope with that is not our problem. 

Fine. Have it back. N.Ireland has been a burden on the UK since day one. A net drain on the economy. You deal with the eejits. Problem solved.

[aright]

1 hour ago, SuperTed said:

Don't disagree with your views, but again, lack of political unity really prevented UK from using its full clout to affect change. It is unfortunate DE knew the problems and didn't fix them. Too busy accepting immigrants to fix the EU...

There was never a moment where the UK, having pressed France into cooperating, told Brussels "look we're going to defund you next year if you don't change X, Y, Z"

There was just not the political will to take action. And Britain, with a France, Italy, Spain or Holland onside, is big enough to have forced change.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, maybe that moment happened but didn't make the papers

I am sure that lots of things were most probably said behind closed doors but I have no proof of that. I was always mildly agitated at the development of the EU but never overly concerned or involved until 2015 when the ECJ raised its head which for me turned on a red light regarding the law and sovereignty.    Thanks for your contribution.

 

"The explosive importance of Lisbon is not just that it enlarged the ECJ's domain from commercial matters (pillar I), to broad areas of defence, foreign affairs, immigration, justice and home affairs, nor that this great leap forward was rammed through without a referenda - after the French and the Dutch had already rejected it in its original guise as the European Constitution.

 

Lisbon also made the Charter of Fundamental Rights legally-binding. As we have since discovered, that puts our entire commercial, social, and criminal system at the mercy of the ECJ."

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/08/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

The article was originally posted on the Daily Telegraph but the Telegraph won't always  let non subscripted members view An exact copy of the original article can be found on

 https://quiteu.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/britains-defiant-judges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-court/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CG1 Blue]

12 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Fine. Have it back. N.Ireland has been a burden on the UK since day one. A net drain on the economy. You deal with the eejits. Problem solved.

There are still many in NI who feel passionately British and would rather die than reunite with Ireland. However the demographic is changing in NI, and it seems quite likely there will be a reunification referendum at some point in the near future.

 

It would be ironic if after all these attempts to derail Brexit using the Irish border 'issue', NI votes to join the Republic! 

[Spidey]

Just now, CG1 Blue said:

There are still many in NI who feel passionately British and would rather die than reunite with Ireland. However the demographic is changing in NI, and it seems quite likely there will be a reunification referendum at some point in the near future.

 

It would be ironic if after all these attempts to derail Brexit using the Irish border 'issue', NI votes to join the Republic! 

Well they're clearly not British, no matter how much King Billy's lot would like to think so. To be British you must be from Great Britain. My passport says "Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is why the honest ones call themselves "Unionists".

 

They have marched into the British parliament and held the Tory party to ransom. Brexit would have taken a different path if that weren't so. At least the Left Footers have the good sense to stay out of the British parliament.

 

Never mind leaving the EU, a more pressing issue is to kick NI out of the Union. Britain for the British, I say.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

We did it called leave the EU, leave the single market and leave the custom union

People that voted remain voted to keep the status quo, people that voted leave voted for the opposite of the status quo the eu referendum options were a  binary choice between leave or remain

Here Cameron stating 28 times a vote for leave means leaving the single market

 

Cameron was saying that leaving the SM is idiotic, which it is.

 

The vote was to leave the EU. Only.

 

Fine, leave the EU but stay in the CU and SM

 

Why would we stretch a point to please a bunch of imbeciles?

 

I don't give a damn what a Tory politician said years ago. We're interested in the situation now.

 

 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Well they're clearly not British, no matter how much King Billy's lot would like to think so. To be British you must be from Great Britain. My passport says "Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is why the honest ones call themselves "Unionists".

 

They have marched into the British parliament and held the Tory party to ransom. Brexit would have taken a different path if that weren't so. At least the Left Footers have the good sense to stay out of the British parliament.

 

Never mind leaving the EU, a more pressing issue is to kick NI out of the Union. Britain for the British, I say.

A minor technicality, but to be British, you would need to come from the British Isles, would you not? The British Isles includes Ireland in its entirety. 

[AlexRich]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Why wouldn't Dyson want to move his business closer to his highest growth market...……….China. Why wouldn't he want to move to Singapore which has a free trade agreement with the EU……… his established market, and a highly skilled lower cost base workforce. It's called good business and has nothing to do with his stand on Brexit. 

I own and run a business and as a result know scores of business owners and none of them run their businesses for the benefit of the country they live or work in.

Mercedes build cars in the USA; in fact foreign motor vehicle manufacturers in the US are now making more cars and trucks in the USA than General Motors ,Ford and all other US car companies combined. Are they being disloyal to their country of origin or is it just good business?

Perhaps they shouldn’t encourage others to vote to trash their economy whilst insulating themselves from the trashing ... like Rees Mogg and Dyson. Not to mention the tax exile Barclay Brothers, owners of the Telegraph. 

 

Hypocrites one and all. Don’t do as I do, do as I say.

[melvinmelvin]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

A minor technicality, but to be British, you would need to come from the British Isles, would you not? The British Isles includes Ireland in its entirety. 

 

? meaning all Dubliners are British ?

 

wouldn't go down well in Temple Bar

 

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

35 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Well they're clearly not British, no matter how much King Billy's lot would like to think so. To be British you must be from Great Britain. My passport says "Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is why the honest ones call themselves "Unionists".

 

They have marched into the British parliament and held the Tory party to ransom. Brexit would have taken a different path if that weren't so. At least the Left Footers have the good sense to stay out of the British parliament.

 

Never mind leaving the EU, a more pressing issue is to kick NI out of the Union. Britain for the British, I say.

maybe UK could just sell NI off to the highest bidder, could  be done if parliament agrees

Trump could make brilliant golf courses there

 

serious:

the question needs to be asked:

How far should UK bend over backwards in order to satisfy hardliners and nutcases in NI?

NI and the DUPers are major factors in making Brexit more difficult than necessary 

 

 

for years the population of Denmark has been fully prepared to sell off Greenland and Faroe Islands,

cheap,

Greenland is finally about sorted, Faroe Islands so so

they have been an enormous drain on Danish resources - financially and politically - for ages

 

 

 

 

[bomber]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU cannot (and will not) force Ireland to put up a border. Have you seen the passion in Ireland over this matter? They'd stick two fingers up at the EU.

Ireland would leave the EU before they would put up a border. 

ROI will not been leaving the EU in your lifetime or my lifetime,hard,soft or a trump wall border.

[CG1 Blue]

49 minutes ago, Spidey said:

Well they're clearly not British, no matter how much King Billy's lot would like to think so. To be British you must be from Great Britain. My passport says "Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which is why the honest ones call themselves "Unionists".

 

They have marched into the British parliament and held the Tory party to ransom. Brexit would have taken a different path if that weren't so. At least the Left Footers have the good sense to stay out of the British parliament.

 

Never mind leaving the EU, a more pressing issue is to kick NI out of the Union. Britain for the British, I say.

Well that's a whole different debate, and you're quite right I was wrong to use the term British. 

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, Spidey said:

How do I show you that Farage and Johnson have been conspicuously silent since the referendum result was announced? You can't see fresh air.

Regarding Nigel Farage. He has been anything but silent on remain May’s attempt to sabotage the people’s referendum of 2016.

He has now threatened  to help create another political party to fight for our rights,should the establishment stop the implementation of the referendum result. And I’m 100% sure this is focusing the minds of many politicians.